Spreading the art?

[ARNIS PRINCESS]

My teacher, Ramon Rubia, once mentioned something that a GM once told him:

"To be a master you have to contribute to the art. You have to innovate or preserve, but be active in its development so that it stays 'alive'."

It was so true that it stuck with me. That type of philosophy allows different types of persons to rise to that high level. Some people are great at preserving. They learn and master what they have been taught and they keep true to what the system that they learned is. They pass on the art in the form truest to the way they learned it. Others innovate. They take the art, internalize it and express themselves through it. They pass on the art as it has come to flower in them. Both methods are important and can exist within the same teacher although they tend to polarize on one or the other. But the end result is the same, the system is proliferated and developed and stays "living."

Well said.

 

[Dan Anderson]

Wellllllll, I certainly came onto this thread rather late. My 2 cents worth. Spreading the art. What is your motive behind it? Mine? I like the art. I like the founder. I thing there are many good skills that can come out of training in the art. So, you can spread the art personally via seminars, private lessons or teaching students. You can spread the art through media such as books and videos/DVDs. The only tough thing is quality control. If you personally teach someone, you can run quality control quite easily. Seminars are tougher because you are not trying to piss someone off by constantly correcting him/her and you want to be brought back. Media instruction you haven't got a ghost of a chance so you hope for the best. The plus side is the more dissemination, the more people to hook up with and it can all come out right in the end.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[arnisandyz]

Something that should be considered...what is "IT" your spreading? Is it the overall art and culture of the Philippines? a specific system or style from a specific founder? or your groups interpretation or innovation of a specific style? As Mr Anderson said - there are different motives. When I am teaching my nephews and thier friends (American born Filipino kids), my motives are to make them feel proud of being Filipino, so its more about culture, history, etc. If I am representing a specific system, i try to make it very clear "what I was shown" with the statement that other people might do it differently. And Finally, when representing our groups interpretation and innovation with someone, my motives are to share. Most often the people I share with are very experienced and will then share thier "way" of doing things and we all learn.

Andy

 

[loki09789]

Something that should be considered...what is "IT" your spreading? Is it the overall art and culture of the Philippines? a specific system or style from a specific founder? or your groups interpretation or innovation of a specific style? As Mr Anderson said - there are different motives. When I am teaching my nephews and thier friends (American born Filipino kids), my motives are to make them feel proud of being Filipino, so its more about culture, history, etc. If I am representing a specific system, i try to make it very clear "what I was shown" with the statement that other people might do it differently. And Finally, when representing our groups interpretation and innovation with someone, my motives are to share. Most often the people I share with are very experienced and will then share thier "way" of doing things and we all learn.

Andy

This is exactly why I say just focusing on teaching well and practicing well should be the mainstay. The rest is what you do to keep the doors open or to put that quality into a mission or philosophy for meaning.

How many really are really comfortable with doing more than instructing a martial art system? Other than a homespun/folk (meaning word of mouth type of level) level of instruction, I don't know too many martial arts instructors who are educated well enough on the culture, beyond the art, to be truly considered cultural emmisaries. Other than basics of good conduct and golden rule type of instruction, I don't know ANY martial artists who could really be considered qualified to be 'moral mentors' to be at a Deacon/Elder/Priest of a philosophy/theology of Zen, Tao, Buddhism, Christianity/Islam...

So beyond the technique, the system and the customs and courtesies that you are using (if they come from the tradition/culture), the rest of what you are 'spreading' is your personallity and your individual presentation of 'what my instructor did.' The communication, the analogies, the stories..... all your version of the last version you were exposed to and so on back through to who ever created/originated/labelled your system/school as distinct - whether it is only a slight difference or a large philosophical leap from what was before.

Teaching and practicing well with solid people will draw others because it will be appealing. RP was an incredibly charismatic figure who attracted as many new people because of his personallity as his art did. They may have stayed for the art, but many were drawn to him first.

Teaching is the primary mover in a martial art system. For me that should be for self defense through personal development first. Education and fitness are the keys to reducing the statistical causes of 'random' violence or the likelyhood that a person will let themselves walk into a 'domestic' violent situation.

 

[Dan Anderson]

Arnisandyz,

VERY good post. Right on the button.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[sungkit]

Good post Bart about what was said to your teacher Ramon Rubia by one ofthe grandmasters.

My teacher Snr Master Roland Dantes adheres to the same belief. There are masters training and researching to the point that they innovate and infuse the results into the material that they are teaching. Then there are those who hand the system down exactly like they were taught by their teacher.

Having been in the Philippines a few months training and interviewing different masters, I have seen many instances of those who are innovating and those who are maintaining the system they are teaching as excactly as they were taught. This was obvious when I had the opportunity to meet and interview several masters of balintawak and modern arnis here.

 

[DoxN4cer]

Spreading the art....

IMHO it's all about integrity. Stand by. I'm going rambling...

Spreading the art is more than teaching for the sake of teaching. It's more than enrolment numbers. It's the quality of the product you put out that matters. You can teach, or you can inspire. Which would you rather do?

In teaching, is rank more important than skill? Are you more concerned with the development of your students rather than your reputation and finances?

Is martial arts your vocation, or avocation?

Do you expect your students to worship you the way you worshipped your instructor?

Do you belittle and criticize other instructors openly and avoid them when they find out about your behavior, or do you tell your students that everyone hase something to offer and invite them to see what other instructors have to offer?

Do you brag about how tough you are, but avoid confrontation with the people who you spoke ill of?

Do you teach martial arts because it's the only marketable skill you have and you got tired of washing dishes at the pizza joint?

Do you talk about "real" combat when you have never seen it? (see www.phonyveterans.com)

Are you honest in presenting your material? For example: Do you "create" a "new" system by taking techniques from a famous instuctor and renaming it something like "mano y baraw" and calling it your own original knife fighting method, or do you simply borrow drills from other systems and tell your students "this drill is from XXX system, and I dicided to include it because it has value"?

In selling books, videos and the like, do you charge $60 for a $10 product?

Do you give $30 worth of instruction at seminars that cost students $100 or more to attend, or do you charge nothing for knowledge that is priceless?

Is your wallet full and your heart empty?

I suppose I could go on and on for days, but I'll stop there. I'm done philosophizing.

Paul Janulis touch on this earlier in the thread; It's not about how many people you teach, or how many products you sell. It's about the lasting impression you leave on people and how honest you are with your students and yourself.

Submitted respectfully,

Tim Kashino

 

[OULobo]

Spreading the art....

IMHO it's all about integrity. Stand by. I'm going rambling...

Spreading the art is more than teaching for the sake of teaching. It's more than enrolment numbers. It's the quality of the product you put out that matters. You can teach, or you can inspire. Which would you rather do?

In teaching, is rank more important than skill? Are you more concerned with the development of your students rather than your reputation and finances?

Is martial arts your vocation, or avocation?

Do you expect your students to worship you the way you worshipped your instructor?

Do you belittle and criticize other instructors openly and avoid them when they find out about your behavior, or do you tell your students that everyone hase something to offer and invite them to see what other instructors have to offer?

Do you brag about how tough you are, but avoid confrontation with the people who you spoke ill of?

Do you teach martial arts because it's the only marketable skill you have and you got tired of washing dishes at the pizza joint?

Do you talk about "real" combat when you have never seen it? (see www.phonyveterans.com)

Are you honest in presenting your material? For example: Do you "create" a "new" system by taking techniques from a famous instuctor and renaming it something like "mano y baraw" and calling it your own original knife fighting method, or do you simply borrow drills from other systems and tell your students "this drill is from XXX system, and I dicided to include it because it has value"?

In selling books, videos and the like, do you charge $60 for a $10 product?

Do you give $30 worth of instruction at seminars that cost students $100 or more to attend, or do you charge nothing for knowledge that is priceless?

Is your wallet full and your heart empty?

I suppose I could go on and on for days, but I'll stop there. I'm done philosophizing.

Paul Janulis touch on this earlier in the thread; It's not about how many people you teach, or how many products you sell. It's about the lasting impression you leave on people and how honest you are with your students and yourself.

Submitted respectfully,

Tim Kashino

I don't think I've seen so many vailed (or not so vailed) shots taken in one post.

 

[DoxN4cer]

I don't think I've seen so many vailed (or not so vailed) shots taken in one post.

Shots? No, just observations over many years and many miles. Tim Hartman so eloquently stated earlier, "I think you're seeing Ghosts".

If someone here feels that I've wronged them by speaking my mind, I hope they realize that I'm not picking on any one particular person. I am commenting on things I have seen in the past... and present. However, if the shoe fits... put it on and walk.

TK

 

[Cruentus]

Shots? No, just observations over many years and many miles. Tim Hartman so eloquently stated earlier, "I think you're seeing Ghosts".

If someone here feels that I've wronged them by speaking my mind, I hope they realize that I'm not picking on any one particular person. I am commenting on things I have seen in the past... and present. However, if the shoe fits... put it on and walk.

TK

Dude, it's pretty obvious that your taking shots at Hartman. When OUlobo, a respectable martial artist from Ohio who doesn't even do Modern Arnis notices, then that should give you a clue that your "shots" weren't vieled at all.

The sad thing is, you make good points in your post. I like what you said about it being about integrity. I like what you said about it being about the quality of product. I especially liked your reference to "hero worship," which is an extremely overlooked problem that we have in the martial arts world.

However, with all the good points, you are clearly attacking someone in the process. Why? Who does it help? What does it solve? All it does is make people wanna ignore your good points. I see your good points, and I wanna say "Nice point, Tim K.!" I wanna give you a little positive rep points. However...I can't, because I can't agree with attacking someone in the process.

I just don't understand what it solves to attack someone over an ongoing feud. Hey, if Hartman wronged you last week and you were still pissed off, I could understand, and I wouldn't have s**t to say. However, this has been ongoing, and doesn't seem to have an end in site.

Don't veil it, Tim K. If you have a beef with Hartman and you feel that it needs to be hashed out publically, then state your problem and your beef. Don't mince words. I won't come to the rescue on it if you do either...I promise. If there is nothing that can be worked or hashed out, then why not just worry about YOUR "product" and YOUR training, and let people be?

I just don't understand what it solves to drag the horse through the mud, after it has been killed? Not anymore, anyways.

:idunno:

 

[DoxN4cer]

I remember seeing some wise words somewhere... something to the effect of "Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics..."

I love how you guys turn things around. "BOO-HOO, Tim's picking on us. Make the bad man stop!!!"

...YAWN...

I apologize for any perceved wrong doing. Grow up. Get over it. Move on.

I try to focus on integrity, and you turn it into something about Tim Hartman. Frankly, Paul, in my post I gave examples based on and experiences I have had and people that I have met and dealt with over the course of the last 20 years, and they have very little if anything to do with the man. Thanks for dragging my post off course and degrading its meaning. Well done.

BTW... the sky blue. Got a problem with that statement as well?

TK

 

[Cruentus]

I remember seeing some wise words somewhere... something to the effect of "Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics..."

I love how you guys turn things around. "BOO-HOO, Tim's picking on us. Make the bad man stop!!!"

...YAWN...

I apologize for any perceved wrong doing. Grow up. Get over it. Move on.

BTW... the sky blue. Got a problem with that statement as well?

TK

Dude, come on!? :rofl:

It was so clear that you were attacking Hartman specifically that even someone running a race in the special olympics could run by a computer screen and catch it (to go with the trend of your interesting analogy).

Look, Tim K., I don't care that much about what you do. If you want to attack Hartman, then go ahead, have a blast. I am sure he can defend himself too. I am not Hartman, so it effects me very little.

What I am trying to understand is why you feel the need to attack him, or anyone, to make a point? If you got beef, don't be a sissy girl, and state your beef. If you just dislike someone, and no amount of hashing or bashing will change that, then how about do your work, train, and be happy? That seems like the answer to me.

Dude, if I'm off base, let me know.

:asian:

 

[Cruentus]

Sorry, Tim K.. I just saw your PM before my last response. We can take it private instead of degrading this thread if you'd like.

:asian:

 

[DoxN4cer]

:

Dude, if I'm off base, let me know.

:asian:

You're WAY off base... more like over the foul line and into the stands.

So ends my contribution to your derailment of this thread.

 

[Cruentus]

TIm K.,

I apoligize if I am off base, and I apologize for not taking this PM eariler. I am officially taking it PM now, so the thread can be no longer derailed.

I'll shut up now... :uhyeah:

 

[bart]

Spreading the art....

IMHO it's all about integrity. Stand by. I'm going rambling...

Tim Kashino

Hey Guys,

The personal attack points must be really veiled because I didn't see them when I read the post. The only hooks into any person were:

pizza joint
phony veterans
mano y baraw

The rest were extremely general and hardly personal shots. Unless Tim H was formerly a pizza maker with some phony military stories and a technique specifically called mano y baraw that he glommed from somebody else, then the post was just a statement of personal opinions. Tim K's post seemed to me to just be an impersonal rant about some of the legitimate problems out there concerning some vastly generalized types of people promoting the art. The threads can get political if you let them, but to me it seemed like good but somewhat sarcastic post.

Most of the points were pretty good pieces about problems that we face with lots of other instructors wherever we teach. If there were some points that can be seen as personal that seem to have slipped passed me, please PM or email me about those exact references so that I can see the connection.

 

[Flatlander]

Hey, I worked in the pizza industry for 4 years. We're people too.

(But I'm out of that now. Way too much stress.)

 

[Dan Anderson]

Party on, Bart! I see it the same way. The points TK brought up are legitimate points. Despite the fact that TK and TH have been involved in BS, I don't see enough for PH to come to TH's defense against TK...IMHO.
:boing2:
It does all boil down to integrity when you spread the art. Now here's the kicker. What is true for one might not be true for another. I just posted over in the kenpo/kempo forum making a point for student contracts in the school. To him, when you see a contract, run the other way. To me, it ensures the bills get paid. For him, integrity has gone out the window when you have a student sign a contract and for me, my integrity won't let me close the school doors.

Integrity and ethics are personal matters. Tough to regulate.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Cruentus]

O.K....time to let out the secret that there is a big, pink elephant in the room. :rofl:

1. Tim H. worked for pizza hut before he was a martial arts school owner.

2. Dr. Maung Gyi, who was a friend to Remy Presas, and who is now a friend to the WMAA, and a signee on TIm H's 7th degree diploma, has been featured in phonyvets.com.

3. Tim H., with Professors permission, had programs like Mano y Baraw in place before Professor passed away.

Now, if you didn't know the above, now you do. If you did, stop trying to act like there isn't a pink elephant in the room, please, as it makes me think that I am crazier then I'd like to be. :uhyeah:

Please understand, I am not even defending Tim H.; Tim H. can defend himself he he feels the need to. I was just trying to understand why Tim Kashino would put these attacks in a post with such good points? It makes people tend to not look at the good points, and focus on the vieled "shots."

Anyways, I should have asked Tim K all this in private so it wouldn't look like I was running to the rescue again. I apoligized for not doing that already, and I apologize for it again. I PMed Tim K., so hopefully we can continue a conversation that way.

And...I am only posting this here for your own understanding.

Thank you,

Paul "trying to avoid politics but failing in this thead" Janulis

 

[Emptyglass]

Hi Paul:

Please understand, I am not even defending Tim H.; Tim H. can defend himself he he feels the need to. I was just trying to understand why Tim Kashino would put these attacks in a post with such good points? It makes people tend to not look at the good points, and focus on the vieled "shots."

It seemed to me like people were focusing on the good points.

Respectfully,

Rich Curren