Spreading the art?

[Cruentus]

Mr. Martin

To be straight up with you, my only training in FMA is from a college buddy of mine who taught me when I was in school @NYU. I have "rank" in TKD and Kenpo. Havent gotten back into anything since Ive come back. Been lurking here since I see a lot of people here list WNY as their location. Lots of "bad blood" I see from searching the posting history of some of you guys, didnt know it was like that in FMA.

"Bad Blood" is a fact of the martial arts, regardless of what you train in. As long as you keep a positive attitude for yourself, bad blood will not effect you in a negative way, and you'll be able to learn good Martial Arts.

I didn't know if you were looking for a school, or not, but if you are, check out Datu Tim's school, if he is near enough to you. He's one of the best in da bidness. Website: http://www.wmarnis.com

Paul Janulis
:asian:

 

[StraightRazor]

Thanks a lot guys. Just testing the waters here, dont mean to get off topic. Like to know the background before I jump into anything if you catch me?

The politics you guys are talking about. Do they really effect the students or is it more the leaders that get involved in them? Mots of my schooling experience has been more "businesslike" pay learn and leave, never got into anything else.

 

[Cruentus]

Thanks a lot guys. Just testing the waters here, dont mean to get off topic. Like to know the background before I jump into anything if you catch me?

The politics you guys are talking about. Do they really effect the students or is it more the leaders that get involved in them? Mots of my schooling experience has been more "businesslike" pay learn and leave, never got into anything else.

Most of the time, at least in modern arnis anyways, politics have little to do with the students.

But really, it's all up to you. If your mindset is not to worship an instructor, and not to involve yourself in the politics, then you'll be fine.

:asian:

 

[arnisandyz]

Thanks a lot guys. Just testing the waters here, dont mean to get off topic. Like to know the background before I jump into anything if you catch me?

The politics you guys are talking about. Do they really effect the students or is it more the leaders that get involved in them? Mots of my schooling experience has been more "businesslike" pay learn and leave, never got into anything else.

Just speaking for myself as a student and my experiences with my teachers and other friends teachers...I have been very fortunate that most people that i have had the pleasure to train with offer much more than instruction for money. There agendas have always been pure in sharing (spreading the art). They not only teach you a skill, but really welcome you into thier martial arts family. With that jesture from the teacher comes a sense of loyalty, dedication and ownership from the student. I believe this is one reason why you see students getting involved in the politics. No offense, but as far as "pay, learn and leave" I would find it somewhat unrewarding for both the student and the teacher. Martial Arts shouldn't be like your getting a burger through a McDonald's drive-thu.

 

[Tgace]

I told myself Id stay out of this one (so much for that), but I figured Id put my $.02 in.

"Spreading the art" and heck even the politics involved may not necessarily be a "bad thing" as long as its for the sake of the art and the welfare of those practicing it. When It turns into ego and fighting over "whos who" is where it crosses the line. Like its been said, the politics around here have cooled lately, hopefully the fires are out and not just smouldering.

 

[loki09789]

StraightRazor - on behalf of the MT Admin/Mod team ... WELCOME!

This is so true in a lot of "commercial schools." What I find really disturbing is that now you have several generations of instructors, who were products of their own instructors and do not even know what they are missing.

-Michael

Not only are they not aware of what is missing, they stubbornly refuse to seek the rest or accept it when it is offered because 'that isn't what he/she/they' did as the only justification. In the 'one art' thread I made the point that one person can not know all, one system can not be truly complete or whole (not in terms of self defense at least). That is especially true if the 'cult of personallity' issue has left a legacy of insecurity and ego that keeps people from balancing tradition with change.

I respect the TMA's, but I don't think that introducting new things/variations to answer current threats (firearms, tactics....) or make it easier to learn in a different teaching environment (new country/culture, different ages, ability....) is a bad thing, but there are those who would say that you are watering down, it isn't as good as, or it isn't authentic or original. "Spreading the art" isn't just a geographical spreading but a legacy issue. Balancing the spread of the art by allowing it to change and adapt to the times/needs goes a long way to keeping it alive. Being open to that adaptation and change, and doing it well, is only possible if people loose the ego and 'who's who' motivation and stay with the 'training with a purpose' motivation.

 

[loki09789]

Thanks a lot guys. Just testing the waters here, dont mean to get off topic. Like to know the background before I jump into anything if you catch me?

The politics you guys are talking about. Do they really effect the students or is it more the leaders that get involved in them? Mots of my schooling experience has been more "businesslike" pay learn and leave, never got into anything else.

Based on your earlier bio, your experience with formal martial arts seemed to be at lower ranks so chances of political stuff are slim to none. I think Arnisanyz's point about students, seniors usually, getting involved is due to a desire to move closer to the 'head of the table' themselves. The political stuff really wasn't a big training floor distraction for the majority of my time as student/assistant instructor. After I opened my own place years back it was different. I was vested, it was my paycheck and not only was the art my product, but 'me' as well.

There was even an incident where another BB came and trained with us for a while, admitted to little to no FMA training and wanted to learn more. Fine. A little while later he opens his own shop and lists MA/FMA as part of his program. I don't know if that was politics when I called him and told him that my reputation in FMA was going to be reflected in his poor presentation and I would like him to take the FMA/MA stuff down, but it felt political.

Students are there for training and a positive social/learning culture. Instructors/assistant instructors should be at least aware of the local 'feel' so they can do effective business. Politics comes with business. But it doesn't have to be a negative. It is frustrating, time consuming and mind boggling though.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Okay, then who was your NYU instructor/system if you need/want a training group there are many here who would welcome a good training partner. Knowing your previous training might help find the best fit/group.

It's too bad that you didn't list the TKD/Kenpo Rank under that section of the profile. Lot's of those schools around here too. What was your NYU major?

Does it really matter? If he doesn’t feel like posting his intel that’s up to him.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Been lurking here since I see a lot of people here list WNY as their location. Lots of "bad blood" I see from searching the posting history of some of you guys, didnt know it was like that in FMA.

Before you make any decisions on what’s going on in the WNY FMA scene, you should try to meeting with some of the players and make your own mind up. Feel free you drop in to my school and try a class. Here are directions to my school. http://horizonma.com/map.htm

My school number is 675-0899

Feel free to call or stop by anytime.

Respectfully,
Datu Tim Hartman
WMAA & Horizon Martial Arts
:asian:

 

[loki09789]

I'm just going to say this outright to avoid more 'veiled' niceties and the 'hollywood kiss' level of sincerity that usually comes with the cold war level of gamesmanship.

It seems awefully suspicious that a topical discussion is continuously redirected by two post account ID's with thin to no history or bio information toward 'politics' and away from topic. It is also suspicious that the direction it is being channeled toward is a personal discussion of 'causing trouble' by Arniss Princess and "bad blood" by StraightRazor.

Now, Tim H. is casting a negative light on my seeking info on St. Rzr's background when the reason is clearly stated in the post: letting those who have similar groups offer up their time. Heck, I even wrote StraightRazor a PM inviting him to a July 11th seminar.

I am not asking for ID validation nor am I going to come out looking good making this statement, but it is this 'well, just wondering....' type of stuff that makes it not so fun to discuss stuff because people are too busy seeing general comments as being jabs.

If these discussions could stay on topic instead of being redirected it would be a demonstration of maturity as far as I am concerned.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

I think you're seeing Ghosts.


:btg:

 

[StraightRazor]

Ouch! I dint mean to draw such suspicion. 3 or 4 posts and im drawing bad rep points already

For the record I only listed FMA in my profile because I thought the box asked for my primary interest not my training history (which isnt high level). Ive tried to return PM's but my computer just locks up for some reason. it does it when I try to quote posts too. Try e-mail if you want to go off line. I only raise the politics issue because its mentioned pretty outright here and I guess the flack Im drawing is born of it. Unless Im "seeing ghosts". if it will help the thread I guess I will just "ease out" of this one.

 

[StraightRazor]

BTW the history between you guys is pretty obvious, heck all you have to do is read through the threads on the filipino arts forums to see something is going on, its not like I had to be "in" with anybody to figure it out.

 

[tshadowchaser]

I agree lets stay on the subject of the thread. That is about spreading the art, not about someones id or personal information. Ask him by pm or email if he wants to answee he will.
Now I had thought up until a short while ago that to spread an art a person should stay under the banner of the originator. My thought patteren now says that if a student who has become an instructor and has the experence of years of study leaves the parent organisation, for what ever reason, but continues to teach the material that was taught to him and gives do credit to where it came from that is still spreading the art.
Also I do not feel that produceing 100 or 500 black blt or instructors is spreading the art if those people do not understand the principles and applications of their art. Rank alone dose not give a person knowledge, nor dose it mean that that person can pass on what they know. They must be able to teach and explain what they are teaching, in order to pass on the art.

 

[ARNIS PRINCESS]

BTW the history between you guys is pretty obvious, heck all you have to do is read through the threads on the filipino arts forums to see something is going on, its not like I had to be "in" with anybody to figure it out.

Agreed. The two have had many exchanges in the past.

 

[loki09789]

Im new here. This is my first post as a matter of fact. But i have been lurking as a guest for a while. And I jump into a political thread (typical )

I notice that there seems to be more behind this thread than I can see on the surface. It started on the originating thread and seems to be brewing here too. A sort of simmering tension. Between players here. You guys know each other or somthin?

"the history between you guys is pretty obvious..."

Then why is it necessary, inside or out, to ask about it? If those on the 'inside' aren't talking about it, why should someone, who sees it as obvious, bother to ask?


I still am asking that we just continue with the topic of the thread, please respond if you must through PM. Your computer seems to be back up and running, so maybe you can respond through PM now so that we can both avoid further high jacking. If your computer allows you to respond/contribute you should be fine to PM (same system btw). If not, my profile is pretty complete and you can reply via my email. I have tried emailing you, it is blocked...

 

[ARNIS PRINCESS]

Maybe someone should split this thread to help keep it on course?

 

[loki09789]

Also I do not feel that produceing 100 or 500 black blt or instructors is spreading the art if those people do not understand the principles and applications of their art. Rank alone dose not give a person knowledge, nor dose it mean that that person can pass on what they know. They must be able to teach and explain what they are teaching, in order to pass on the art.

I like the quality first tone to this point. How do you think changes/adaptations and innovations to an art fit into this equation?

An example is DEFENDO (formerly DEFENDU) which has re-appeared with a slightly new name and a new Thai boxing foundation that wasn't there in the earlier forms. If anyone remembers the original Star Trek tv series, the fighting style that all the Kirkies used was actually DEFENDU.

Another, more contraversial as well, evolution is in Krav Maga. Those who trained in the original paramilitary/LEO approach are very critical of the current commercial form. It has spread as an art, I still think it has merit in self defense myself (if a little overkillish at times for the letigious US). There is 'politics' there because there is a difference in philosophies: Small and authentic/VERY hard core vs. Larger and more accessible.

 

[OULobo]

One problem is that every time an art is passed on it gets a new spin. Many people see this as a "watering down". Every teacher puts a different application or approach into his teaching. I have found that I agree most with teachers that separate and maintain the integrity of thier individual arts and also teach a blended system under a different name. This allows the original arts to be spread as close to original as possible, but still allows students to have the option to learn the effectivness of a blended system with the instructors personal flavor. The hardest part of this is that the instructor usually inevitably has a favorite and may loose the motivation to teach the other arts in their most intact form.

 

[bart]

My teacher, Ramon Rubia, once mentioned something that a GM once told him:

"To be a master you have to contribute to the art. You have to innovate or preserve, but be active in its development so that it stays 'alive'."

It was so true that it stuck with me. That type of philosophy allows different types of persons to rise to that high level. Some people are great at preserving. They learn and master what they have been taught and they keep true to what the system that they learned is. They pass on the art in the form truest to the way they learned it. Others innovate. They take the art, internalize it and express themselves through it. They pass on the art as it has come to flower in them. Both methods are important and can exist within the same teacher although they tend to polarize on one or the other. But the end result is the same, the system is proliferated and developed and stays "living."