Splashing Hands

kal

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Be careful arguing the correctness of undocumented history of which you have no first person knowledge,

I am not arguing the correctness of any one side. I keep on telling you that.

At this time, I have no idea WHICH version is correct, so I can not argue the correctness of any of them.

especially when they occurred before you were born.

I wasn't born in Biblical times either, but that doesn't mean that I don't know that there is a contradiction between what the 3 main Abrahamic religions say.
 

Doc

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At this time, I have no idea WHICH version is correct, so I can not argue the correctness of any of them.
no, but you do insist that only one can be correct.
I wasn't born in Biblical times either, but that doesn't mean that I don't know that there is a contradiction between what the 3 main Abrahamic religions say.
Now I know where you're really coming from. Enjoy.
 

kal

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Doc, I am really confused now.

I read an older post of yours (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=269907&postcount=13)
where you state that Ark Wong was "the only acknowledged master of Splashing Hands in North America"

This seems to be different from what you have been saying in the present thread. Can you hep me understand what you mean?

I actually began studying under Grandmaster Ark Yuey Wong in the late fifties. I was introduced into a very closed culture by a schoolmate who happened to be his nephew, Douglas Wong now Grandmaster himself of White Lotus and Sil-Lum and a good friend. His other nephew is Curtis Wong founder and publisher of Inside Kung Fu magazine.

The school at that time was located in the Los Angeles Chinatown at 302 Ord Street, around the corner from the Won Kok Chinese Restaurant. (All the seniors have eaten there at one time or another with Ed Parker Sr.) It was also up the street from Bruce Lee’s “secret” LA Chinatown Kwoon at 628 College Street on the other side of Broadway. It also at one time was on Daly Street, which is also basically “around the corner.”

Although GM Wong was the acknowledged head of Five Animal Qung fu, he also was the only acknowledged master of Splashing Hands in North America. It is here where the legendary Haumea “Tiny” Lefiti landed with a letter from his original teacher when he was discharged from the Marine Corp. “Tiny” was older than Parker but they shared Polynesian Roots and a military kinship because he too had served in the coast guard. Parker however was lucky enough to be stationed in Hawaii which allowed him to continue training with Chow and receive his black belt in Kenpo, Jiu-jitsu, and karate-do while still in the military.

The Chinese influences are great in many areas, from a number of sources. The earlier foray into Chinese Arts saw Ed Parker Sr. beginning to emulate in many ways his Samoan Senior at Ark Wong’s. Having a similar body build made Parker very comfortable with the explosive handwork of “Splashing Hands” he saw with “Tiny.” To put it mildly, “Tiny” was a monster who had himself, a great deal of influence on martial artists in Southern California. Consider him a bigger, stronger and yes, faster Ed Parker and you have “Tiny” at that stage of Parker’s development. Ultimately, “Tiny” left to join Ed Parker’s black belt Tino Tuiolosega in the formation of the original “Lima Lama” organization at Parker’s suggestion. This influenced others like the late Sal Esquivel to spend time at Ark Wong’s as well. Danny Inosanto also was no stranger to Ark Wong’s school before leaving to be with Parker, before going on the road once again with Bruce Lee and also studying Kali and Silat.

Make no mistake. Ed Parker was a student of Ark Wong, and although he spent time with many Chinese Masters, Ark Wong was probably the biggest Chinese influence with Five Animal and Splashing Hands. Even more than his relationships with James (Wing) Woo, or Lau Bun who was his primary Hung Gar influence. Ark Wong contributed “sets” and critical information. Lau Bun taught the initial Hung Gar and Choi Li Fut forms like “Tiger and the Crane,” James Woo provided the majority of the historical information for Parker’s “Secrets of Chinese Karate,” and it was the source of discourse that caused them to separate with two of Parker’s first black belts leaving with Woo. But James Woo collaborated on and provided the Two-Man Set that came to be known as the “Book Set,” as well as other forms. James Woo also taught Taiji Quon in Parker’s school for a period of time.

The “Star Block” was a variation on a Five Animal Blocking Routine, and was the beginning of all “sets.” The original “Finger Set” followed it almost immediately. Ark Wong was a major influence on Parker and is also the root of his understanding of structural integrity, internal energy, and nerve applications that I use today.

In all honesty although I studied with Ark Wong for several years, it was not until I actually met the legendary Ed Parker did he begin to explain what I had learned in a manner that I could really understand. I came to him with a great deal of information, but not truly understanding the applications because it was out of context until the “Kahuna” began to enlighten me as a wide eyed seventeen year old.

The Chinese martial arts community was a “closed shop,” with real information not generally taught to outsiders, and for the most part still is. They liked and embraced Ed Parker and even expressed their feelings of how much they liked him to his son after he passed. I was lucky to have a good friend named Douglas Wong.

Parker never really left “Chinese Kenpo,” but he Americanized it for his own consumption and personal art, and than created a commercial version for the vast majority of his students from the seventies on. Unfortunately, the complexities of the Chinese Sciences are not easily taught, nor were they intended to be, in general, available to most. That hasn’t changed. The level of knowledge required to teach is extradordinary. Although most lay the label of commercialization of kenpo at the feet of Ed Parker, it was actually the Tracy’s who started first and at least initially arguably more successfully.

If I were to do Ed Parker's personal tree, it would be Chow, Wong, Lefiti, with contributions by various others.

Although Ark Wong, Haumea Lefiti, and Ed Parker Sr., are no longer with us, James Wing Woo is alive and well to my knowledge.
 

Doc

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Doc, I am really confused now.

I read an older post of yours (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=269907&postcount=13)
where you state that Ark Wong was "the only acknowledged master of Splashing Hands in North America"

This seems to be different from what you have been saying in the present thread. Can you hep me understand what you mean?

Yes you are, and probably destined to stay that way unless someone chooses to interpret what has been written so far. I nominate Flying Crane.
 

kal

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OK, well in the meantime can you tell me what you meant by an acknowledged master of Splashing Hands?
 

kal

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I know Flying Crane.

But I wish someone would shed some light on how Ark Wong could be "the only acknowledged master of Splashing Hands in North America" while at the same time Splashing Hands never existed as a style !!!
 

JamesB

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I know Flying Crane.

But I wish someone would shed some light on how Ark Wong could be "the only acknowledged master of Splashing Hands in North America" while at the same time Splashing Hands never existed as a style !!!

From reading this thread (and coming in very late) I would say that it would be quite possible for someone to be a master at a methodology (splashing hands), but for that methodology to not exist as a strict style.

It's like saying "sticky hands" or "push hands" is a style - it is not, it is a methodology shared by lots of different systems. Someone could be a push-hands master, but they would be a student of Chen-style Taijiquan (for example). I would propose that the same goes for "splashing hands" (this is Doc's argument if I understand correctly). Splashing-Hands was a training vehicle used to highlight and focus upon an approach found in this other system being mentioned (Mok Gah or something like that?)

OK so now "Splashing Hands" is being called a system and is taught as such by Mr McNeil. This is fine, there is nothing wrong with that. What I believe Doc is saying is that Splashing Hands was not referred to as a style 'back then' within the environment he found himself in. So what is being taught today as splashing-hands is very likely much broader in scope than what splashing-hands meant many years ago to those people - the term 'splashing hands' that used to describe a methodolgy is now being used to refer to an entire system that very likely incorporates other methodologies too.

It's just a name. I kind of like it actually.
 

Flying Crane

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From reading this thread (and coming in very late) I would say that it would be quite possible for someone to be a master at a methodology (splashing hands), but for that methodology to not exist as a strict style.

It's like saying "sticky hands" or "push hands" is a style - it is not, it is a methodology shared by lots of different systems. Someone could be a push-hands master, but they would be a student of Chen-style Taijiquan (for example). I would propose that the same goes for "splashing hands" (this is Doc's argument if I understand correctly). Splashing-Hands was a training vehicle used to highlight and focus upon an approach found in this other system being mentioned (Mok Gah or something like that?)

OK so now "Splashing Hands" is being called a system and is taught as such by Mr McNeil. This is fine, there is nothing wrong with that. What I believe Doc is saying is that Splashing Hands was not referred to as a style 'back then' within the environment he found himself in. So what is being taught today as splashing-hands is very likely much broader in scope than what splashing-hands meant many years ago to those people - the term 'splashing hands' that used to describe a methodolgy is now being used to refer to an entire system that very likely incorporates other methodologies too.

It's just a name. I kind of like it actually.


I think this is probably a pretty good suggestion. I can see a lot of sense in it.
 

kal

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From reading this thread (and coming in very late) I would say that it would be quite possible for someone to be a master at a methodology (splashing hands), but for that methodology to not exist as a strict style.



Well here are some more puzzling statements:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=96053&postcount=49

Doc said:
Tiny Lefiti - Splashing Hands, Five Animal
(not Muk Gar)

and
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=96442&postcount=56

yilisifu said:
Splashing Hands just recently made it into the martial arts magazines via James McNeil....?

Doc said:
No Splashing Hands has been around as long as I can remember (I'm older than you).

And
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=100637&postcount=61

Doc said:
Thus Grandmaster Wong known for “Five Animal” also was well versed in Hung Gar, Choy Li Fut, Splashing Hands, and Taiji.

Note how Splashing Hands is listed along with other styles such as Hung Gar, Choy li fut. Not other methodologies (like push hands), but other styles.

This was in 2003. But somehow, between 2003 and 2007, Splashing Hands suddenly never existed as a style. Hmmmmmmmmmmm.
 

Doc

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Well here are some more puzzling statements:

I seriously suspect you're destined to be dazed and confused no matter what. The subject has been explained as well as you're going to get. Accept it or not, is your choice. Let's see now, what was that definition of insanity?
 

Rabu

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Kempo and Taichi Chuan being the same thing....

I remember talking to Larry Mangone about his study and desire to create 'Tai Kempo'. A fusion of Taichi Chuan and Shaolin Kempo.

Maybe I misremember the individuals name, but I do remember he wore a lavender Gi....
 

DavidCC

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This is the last time I am going to reply to you kal because now I can see the limitations of your thought process:

Claiming that taijiquan and kempo are the same perhaps?

Is that really all you got out of that thread?

the answer is very early in that thread:
"taught from a similar viewpoint of body mechanics before technique" (not an exact quote).

But the fact that you totally missed that tells me a lot about your agenda; or maybe I shouldn't make assumptions, maybe this is informing me aobut your reading comprehension skills LOL.

so, what would you like to accomplish with this discussion? I'm curious...
 

Doc

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This is the last time I am going to reply to you kal because now I can see the limitations of your thought process:



Is that really all you got out of that thread?

the answer is very early in that thread:
"taught from a similar viewpoint of body mechanics before technique" (not an exact quote).

But the fact that you totally missed that tells me a lot about your agenda; or maybe I shouldn't make assumptions, maybe this is informing me aobut your reading comprehension skills LOL.

so, what would you like to accomplish with this discussion? I'm curious...

Clearly, he's got an ax against McNeil. I've seen this before disguised as a "search for truth." The tip off is when you answer and they rephrase and ask again. It's an old litigation trick. "Because I didn't get the answer I'm looking for, - Let me ask it another way."
 

scythe1969

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I was enjoying the reminiscing of the history more than the goal to be accurate in this thread... This post is mostly intended for Chris and partially for Merc.

Chris, I am currently being trained in Limalama by Master George Lugo. Master Lugo was a direct student of Master Tino and did know Master Haumea. If I understand the connection, my teacher would have been an adolescent/early 20s during the time period. He was mostly known by his nickname - 'Shoshi' back then. He learned 'Splashing Hands' (I can't attest to how much or the origin of the style, I just use the term because that's what 'Tiny' called it) from 'Tiny' and occasionally will teach us the forms and some of his 'browns' to us during our training. From what I've been told, the browns (don't know why they're named that either) were part of the Limalama training back then and each student had to come up with 12 of their own browns and in turn learn the 12 from each of the other students. Because of this there are certain browns that take on the style of the original student and Master Lugo says that in most cases will also identify the teacher when you see them performed. Master Lugo has taught us his browns and we continue to learn the others as created/interpreted by Sal, Jr., Richard, Tiny, and the other students/teachers of the time. I have seen some of the butterfly forms as well and I must say that they intriguing and quite powerful.

In any case, I just wanted to share some information for your research. I'm sure that if you had more questions, Master Lugo would be happy to fill in his knowledge and personal stories. I also have some really old footage of Tiny with his students training in a park and Tiny doing some form work in what appears to be a small room/dojo. If you would be interested in getting copies of this just let me know... they are, in a word, priceless.

I have always been fascinated by what I've seen of the splashing hands and I definitely see their influence in the Limalama. I hope that in the near future I will be able to introduce more of it into my training.

Regards,

Jeff
 

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