Sparring - Gear or No Gear?

[Azulx]

MD, I'm imagining you throwing those items at a student or training partner, then attacking them.

What intensity level do you guys go at, on a regular basis? Does it vary much?

Ligh to Moderate on contact

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If you’re on a non-matted surface, it protects your skull when it hits the ground.

The head of my organization used to have a headgear optional policy. He was watching at a tournament (not his tournament) and saw one of the competitors not wearing headgear get swept hard and land full force on the back of his head on a gym floor surface. It wasn’t a dirty sweep, and the guy wasn’t thrown down. The back of the guy’s skull was basically shattered. He immediately required all students wear headgear that fully covers the back of the head. That type of thing doesn’t happen often, but how often does it have to, or better yet how often should it happen? Once was obviously too many times for the guy who wasn’t wearing it.

It’s not going to keep people from being concussed nor is it going to prevent the cumulative effect of minor blows to the head. But it’ll help keep your skull together.

Headgear is annoying. But I’d rather be annoyed by it than be injured by not wearing it.

This is a good reminder. I'm used to always being on mats, but the training surface at the Karate dojo only has mats when we put them down. Maybe headgear shouldn't be optional.

 

[Martial D]

MD, I'm imagining you throwing those items at a student or training partner, then attacking them.

What intensity level do you guys go at, on a regular basis? Does it vary much?

Usually 50% ish

Most of the guys are older, so not a lot of young lion syndrome going around. Every now and then we go hard, but only if both guys are pushing for it.

 

[skribs]

So, two groups of questions in this.

1. What level of gear do you use in your classes (question for both students and instructors) when sparring with strikes? And what level of contact is allowed? How variable is any of that (equipment and level of contact)? And how often do you spar (I'm assuming this will correlate in some way).
2. (This one's for instructors, or for students who happen to know the answer for their school.) For those in the US, what impact does insurance have on your decision? Does your insurance company ask what equipment/contact level is allowed? Do they impose any requirements or limitations?

I'm thinking through what I can and want to allow, and at what level. I need to discuss it with the dojo owner when I return (taking a bit of time off with my foot surgery), and thought I'd use this time to ponder and gather some info.

Kukkiwon TKD school, using WT sparring rules.

Lower belts (white + yellow), non-contact sparring. Just drills moving up and down the mat with a partner, where you maintain a few feet of distance as you punch and kick. This gets them used to reading each other and moving while doing their techniques. It also protects them, because:

• Some people don't know how to aim properly yet and will likely kick to the groin or side of the knee than their intended target
• Most people don't know how to punch or kick properly and might kick with their toes or punch with a loose fist
• Those that do have good technique might not have good control yet. For example, a powerful front snap kick that might hurt someone, who is not ready for that level of contact

There's also the simple fact that gear is expensive (about a $150-200 investment), and if someone isn't going to stick it out past white or yellow belt, that's an extra cost they don't need yet.

Intermediate belts (purple + orange), light contact with full gear. Full gear meaning foot and shin guards, groin protector (for boys), chest protector, gloves and forearm guards, mouthguard, and helmet. The main focus here is getting used to the gear, getting used to getting hit, and learning it's okay to hit people when wearing the gear and when authorized by the Master.

Advanced belts (green, blue, red), medium contact with full gear. We expect the kids to be competent enough to control themselves now, so we let them loose a little bit and encourage them to try more advanced techniques and tactics. If one person is significantly smaller than the other, we tell the other to control their power.

Adult (16+) Red belts and Black belts, medium contact with light head kicks, with full gear. Black belts can do headshots, but we don't want concussions. No punching to the head. Sometimes black belts say no headshots at all, especially those of us who have to go to work the next day.

Black belts, MMA sparring, full gear minus chestguard. Light contact, grabs, sweeps, punches, everything allowed. Wish we did this more.

Black belts helping out with class, whatever gear you think you need. I'll typically just do groin cup, chestguard, and mouthguard when I'm sparring with lower belts. Sometimes I won't gear at all, but when I do that half the time they won't hit me.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Kids wear gear. Adults generally not, but occasionally. I always wear a cup if I'm in the dojo. When adults spar, it's usually light to medium. We avoid intentional head shots. Teaching/learning environment. No blind techniques. No sweeping the base leg. Punch harder by mutual consent. A high ranking black belt must be on the floor and give permission for sparring to occur. Self-Guage whether to spar or not, it isn't required once you demonstrate your ability.

 

[dvcochran]

Pretty much. All head gear does is get in the way. You still get the impact and frankly it makes your head a bigger target because you've got a big helmet on. Plus it cuts out your vision a little to and just gets in your way

I have heard that argument before. I will take the minor inconvenience of headgear over the abrasion from a stout kick/punch any day. I know there are reports saying they do not reduce concussion but for the life of me I do not understand how. That said, I have been knocked with and without headgear. If a helmet is blocking your vision it is of a poor design or the wrong size.

 

[dvcochran]

With few exceptions we at least light spar (no padding) every class. Kids usually do not wear gear until middle color belt level. It is personal preference. We kick a lot so shin and feet pads are usually what people get first, for their own protection as well as their partner. If someone is routinely kicking hard or with poor control they get an "attitude adjustment" and figure it out or get gear. Higher belts (red/black) should have enough control not to need gear for light sparring (again, preference). We have sparring classes. When suited up it is headgear, mouthpiece, knuckle/forearm pads, hogu (chest protector), cup, shin/instep pads. Contact is at or near full force for body shots. Head kicks have to be controlled. In competition, we use the 3 rule standard; visible shutter, knockdown, knockout.
For insurance, it is ever changing. We carry a full liability with limited medical package. 2 million bond, 50/100/350. Everyone signs a waiver. Weak but it has helped in the liability area in the past. I forget the exact wording but the protection requirements falls under the same guidelines as a football or rugby player. So if someone gets hurts and files a claim they need to have been wearing full gear or it will be denied. That is one of the parts that keeps changing.

 

[drop bear]

As far as headgear goes I will throw it on with mma gloves. Mostly because of cuts.

 

[JR 137]

Thanks, that's a good picture of the variety. What do you see among the lower ranks (below dan ranks)? Where does the contact start getting significant, or does it start that way (but at a level that becomes insignificant later)?

Contact level depends far more on the individual than any rule, regardless of rank and experience. We’re a small school, so this works well and is easy to gauge. It’s easy to get into a routine of how hard to hit who.

 

[JR 137]

Regarding insurance...

My previous teacher’s insurance stipulated that sparring could only be done in classes taught by a black belt.

A local school was sued a few years back because the teacher allowed a relatively new student to spar and didn’t require that student to wear safety gear. I’ve heard that owner’s insurance paid the suit then came after the owner to recover their losses because the owner was found negligent. No idea if that’s in fact true or not. Link:
Deangelis v. Izzo, 192 A.D.2d 823 | Casetext

No idea what my current teacher’s insurance stipulates.

A dojomate trained Kyokushin at the famous “Hollywood dojo” while he was stationed there in I think the early 80s. This is when Dolph Lundgren was training there. They had to have 2 dojos - the larger one’s landlord’s insurance wouldn’t cover sparring, so they rented out a smaller space that that they could insure. They’d train at the big dojo certain nights and spar at the smaller dojo other nights.

Long story short, it seemingly all depends on the insurance carrier, the landlord’s insurance (when applicable), and if the landlord is willing to allow it under their lease terms. I could see some landlords saying they don’t want MA and/or sparring because they’re afraid of any potential liability.

 

[Yokozuna514]

In the kids classes we ask them to wear: Shins, gloves, cups (boys), chest shields (girls), head gear. Adults wear the same gear. Crazy adults wear the minimum (cup or shield).

Sparring is light to medium for the most part but there are a few people in our dojo that like to go hard. We all know who those people are and they tend to partner up together. The understanding is that the lower belt dictates the tenor of the fight. The higher belt responds only if there is a persistent lack of regard to the instructions.

People wishing to pursue the Knockdown path are encouraged to pair up with others that are likeminded. We also have a special class for the "crazies" so that they can practice medium to hard contact to their heart's content and with people that will help them advance in the area of their interest.

 

[JR 137]

In the kids classes we ask them to wear: Shins, gloves, cups (boys), chest shields (girls), head gear. Adults wear the same gear. Crazy adults wear the minimum (cup or shield).

Sparring is light to medium for the most part but there are a few people in our dojo that like to go hard. We all know who those people are and they tend to partner up together. The understanding is that the lower belt dictates the tenor of the fight. The higher belt responds only if there is a persistent lack of regard to the instructions.

People wishing to pursue the Knockdown path are encouraged to pair up with others that are likeminded. We also have a special class for the "crazies" so that they can practice medium to hard contact to their heart's content and with people that will help them advance in the area of their interest.

Sounds like us, only we don’t pick our own partners. We line up and rotate through. We know each other well enough to know how wants to do what. We’ve had special classes outside of the regular schedule to do different things too (along with getting together to review for people getting ready for dan testing).

But protective gear isn’t optional. Honbu has far more of the optional classes because they’ve got far more students. We’ve got about 30 adults, they’ve got about 200.

 

[Yokozuna514]

Sounds like us, only we don’t pick our own partners. We line up and rotate through. We know each other well enough to know how wants to do what. We’ve had special classes outside of the regular schedule to do different things too (along with getting together to review for people getting ready for dan testing).

But protective gear isn’t optional. Honbu has far more of the optional classes because they’ve got far more students. We’ve got about 30 adults, they’ve got about 200.

We also line up and rotate as well but most of know who wants to go hard and so we line up accordingly . The idea is to find people that will give you and you give the appropriate level fo contact that they are satisfied with so that they come back to train each night .

 

[Buka]

I don't run a dojo anymore, just visit other people's dojos. That being said -

I used to have students have safety kick, gloves of various kinds that I had to approve, a mouthpiece - all of which they had to have in their bag at all times coming to the dojo. God help you if you came to the dojo without your gear. It would be like coming with no clothes on - it just didn't happen.

Headgear was worn by students until they were skilled in breakfall. Then it was optional - most never wore it again.

I take the safety of students very seriously. I also take sparring very seriously. My biggest pet peeve, of which I have many, is lackadaisical sparring, or no sparring whatsoever. And I took pride in teaching people how to spar and not be uncomfortable or frightened by it. It was my greatest strength as a teacher. As for level of contact - teaching control in striking is tantamount to teaching Martial Arts. You can't have one without the other. And it's not just for safety. If you can't control the force of strikes you'll never learn how to hit with authority, never develop a really powerful strike. The level of contact varied with the student. There was no unsupervised sparring until a student reached an advanced stage. If any excessive contact was displayed the person displaying it was warned, and further coached. Second offense they were fed to the dogs. We had a lot of dogs.

We sparred every Thursday night without fail. Unless someone was coming down to do a seminar or to just teach a class, which some of my teachers would do. We would also spar on any given night - which is why you had to have your gear at all times.

All male students HAD to wear a cup under their gi in every class, even if there was no sparring. It was part of your uniform. Always. It was a rule that was never broken. (How do I know that? Cup checks, snap kick) American Karate is an advanced kicking style. Controlled groin contact was legal and encouraged. If you're a kicker you NEED to learn to protect your groin area.

I spent the first part of my career with no head gear. The middle part with nice, leather headgear, and the latter years with no headgear. I don't like headgear, won't wear it any more. Unless they make me for competition, which I plan to do this coming winter. I'll hate it, but what can you do?

I take fight training very seriously. Always have. I just don't understand Martial Arts without fight training. it would be like eating spaghetti off of the table with no bowl or plate. I mean, you could do it. Buy why would you?

As for insurance, I know nothing about it. We had it, but my partner who ran the office dealt with it.

 

[CB Jones]

they make me for competition, which I plan to do this coming winter.

Interesting....(Initiate Plan "Get Buka To One of Our Tournaments")

 

[Buka]

Interesting....(Initiate Plan "Get Buka To One of Our Tournaments")

A buddy of mine is hosting a Tang-Soo-Do tournie here on Maui in December. He belongs to some organization and they're all coming. I figure I'd support him, what the hell. I also figure I've competed in the seventies, eighties, nineties and the oughts. Might as well squeeze another decade in while I can.

The problem is I don't really kick anymore. And that organization loves to call points for kicks. If you punch them too little, they don't score them, if you punch them too much they yell at you.

But I have a plan. I'm going to buy a white Tang-Soo-Do gi. I'll infiltrate as a spy. Trickery will be afoot.

 

[CB Jones]

A buddy of mine is hosting a Tang-Soo-Do tournie here on Maui in December. He belongs to some organization and they're all coming. I figure I'd support him, what the hell. I also figure I've competed in the seventies, eighties, nineties and the oughts. Might as well squeeze another decade in while I can.

The problem is I don't really kick anymore. And that organization loves to call points for kicks. If you punch them too little, they don't score them, if you punch them too much they yell at you.

But I have a plan. I'm going to buy a white Tang-Soo-Do gi. I'll infiltrate as a spy. Trickery will be afoot.

I know of a great 4 day tournament in Phoenix in July and they love punching...would be a great warm up for Maui. Will be honoring Robert Trias (this year will mark 30 years from him passing away).....just saying.

Sorry for the thread drift.

 

[dvcochran]

Regarding insurance...

My previous teacher’s insurance stipulated that sparring could only be done in classes taught by a black belt.

A local school was sued a few years back because the teacher allowed a relatively new student to spar and didn’t require that student to wear safety gear. I’ve heard that owner’s insurance paid the suit then came after the owner to recover their losses because the owner was found negligent. No idea if that’s in fact true or not. Link:
Deangelis v. Izzo, 192 A.D.2d 823 | Casetext

No idea what my current teacher’s insurance stipulates.

A dojomate trained Kyokushin at the famous “Hollywood dojo” while he was stationed there in I think the early 80s. This is when Dolph Lundgren was training there. They had to have 2 dojos - the larger one’s landlord’s insurance wouldn’t cover sparring, so they rented out a smaller space that that they could insure. They’d train at the big dojo certain nights and spar at the smaller dojo other nights.

Long story short, it seemingly all depends on the insurance carrier, the landlord’s insurance (when applicable), and if the landlord is willing to allow it under their lease terms. I could see some landlords saying they don’t want MA and/or sparring because they’re afraid of any potential liability.

I have seen two schools affected by the landlords barring sparring. One moved, one just shut down and never re-opened.

 

[dvcochran]

A buddy of mine is hosting a Tang-Soo-Do tournie here on Maui in December. He belongs to some organization and they're all coming. I figure I'd support him, what the hell. I also figure I've competed in the seventies, eighties, nineties and the oughts. Might as well squeeze another decade in while I can.

The problem is I don't really kick anymore. And that organization loves to call points for kicks. If you punch them too little, they don't score them, if you punch them too much they yell at you.

But I have a plan. I'm going to buy a white Tang-Soo-Do gi. I'll infiltrate as a spy. Trickery will be afoot.

Never thought it about it much. I missed the outhts due to a bad accident but have competed in every other decade you mentioned. Only twice in the teens however. Definitely slowing down. It is fun to figure out different ways to do/score like I used to. It seems like the rounds are too short for me to snoop out a method most the time though.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't run a dojo anymore, just visit other people's dojos. That being said -

I used to have students have safety kick, gloves of various kinds that I had to approve, a mouthpiece - all of which they had to have in their bag at all times coming to the dojo. God help you if you came to the dojo without your gear. It would be like coming with no clothes on - it just didn't happen.

Headgear was worn by students until they were skilled in breakfall. Then it was optional - most never wore it again.

I take the safety of students very seriously. I also take sparring very seriously. My biggest pet peeve, of which I have many, is lackadaisical sparring, or no sparring whatsoever. And I took pride in teaching people how to spar and not be uncomfortable or frightened by it. It was my greatest strength as a teacher. As for level of contact - teaching control in striking is tantamount to teaching Martial Arts. You can't have one without the other. And it's not just for safety. If you can't control the force of strikes you'll never learn how to hit with authority, never develop a really powerful strike. The level of contact varied with the student. There was no unsupervised sparring until a student reached an advanced stage. If any excessive contact was displayed the person displaying it was warned, and further coached. Second offense they were fed to the dogs. We had a lot of dogs.

We sparred every Thursday night without fail. Unless someone was coming down to do a seminar or to just teach a class, which some of my teachers would do. We would also spar on any given night - which is why you had to have your gear at all times.

All male students HAD to wear a cup under their gi in every class, even if there was no sparring. It was part of your uniform. Always. It was a rule that was never broken. (How do I know that? Cup checks, snap kick) American Karate is an advanced kicking style. Controlled groin contact was legal and encouraged. If you're a kicker you NEED to learn to protect your groin area.

I spent the first part of my career with no head gear. The middle part with nice, leather headgear, and the latter years with no headgear. I don't like headgear, won't wear it any more. Unless they make me for competition, which I plan to do this coming winter. I'll hate it, but what can you do?

I take fight training very seriously. Always have. I just don't understand Martial Arts without fight training. it would be like eating spaghetti off of the table with no bowl or plate. I mean, you could do it. Buy why would you?

As for insurance, I know nothing about it. We had it, but my partner who ran the office dealt with it.

This brings up something I'm grumping internally about. I've almost never worn a cup - not in soccer, and not in MA. I've been hit a very few times (in each of the mentioned pursuits), but not enought to convince me to wear protection. But now I teach much more striking than my instructors did, and use sparring more. I - and my students - should wear that cup. I just can't seem to get comfortable with it, especially when grappling.

I think I'm getting old and grumpy. I'm going to drive 27,000 miles to hang out with @Xue Sheng and yell at the kids on his lawn.