Sparring and My Difficulty Against Kicks

[pdg]

In any situation, the eyes is where you want to be looking.

Kind of, sort of, usually...

If your opponent is of the same mind, then it can work very well to flick your eyes down to the right just before you strike high left

 

[Buka]

Don't worry. Everyone experiences weaknesses everywhere. But you will learn to adapt, especially if you know the blocks. The more you get hit, the more that the brain, body and mind will adapt to stop you from getting hit. But a key thing for this to happen is be steady on your feet. You can't expect to learn how to dodge, or use your feet to block or dodge if you can't keep your balance. Take a friend or some guy at your gym to do the same attack over and over and over at different speeds so that you find a visual queue for the attack. But remember to find the visual queue for the attack itself, not the person attacking you. Don't concentrate on learning the person and attempting to "feel out" when they will hit; concentrate on reacting. The best way to do this is to look directly at your opponent's eyes. In any situation, the eyes is where you want to be looking.

The eyes lie. They lie like the dogs they are. Oh, how the eyes lie!

But I really, really like the rest of your post.

 

[IvanTheBrick]

The eyes lie. They lie like the dogs they are. Oh, how the eyes lie!

But I really, really like the rest of your post.

You don't use the eyes to try to predict where the attack comes from. You can do that if the opponent doesn't expect it, however there is an ulterior motive. I have read a book on neurology and psychology. According to it, in a very simplified manner, humans have slight psychic links to each other; before someone is about to commit to some sort of rash movement such as a strike, if you look into their eyes we "detect" this and subconsciously react that tiny bit faster to the referred movement. Though it's not noticeable, studies prove this.

 

[Buka]

You don't use the eyes to try to predict where the attack comes from. You can do that if the opponent doesn't expect it, however there is an ulterior motive. I have read a book on neurology and psychology. According to it, in a very simplified manner, humans have slight psychic links to each other; before someone is about to commit to some sort of rash movement such as a strike, if you look into their eyes we "detect" this and subconsciously react that tiny bit faster to the referred movement. Though it's not noticeable, studies prove this.

Ivan, buddy, I'm not trying to bully here, honest. You've read a book on neurology and psychology and I've taken two years of Physiological psychology in college [U Mass]. Big whoop. I've been teaching the Arts for a bit, too. Probably longer than your parents have been alive. But the eyes can lie, bro, they really can. You watch my eyes when we spar, I'll make you flinch nine ways to Sunday and misdirect all your movement. It's what we do when we teach kids and white belts.

And wait until you fall in love. Oh, how those eyes can lie.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I'm trying like crazy to keep remembering what Emin Boztepe said in one of his videos: "Don't think about the attack. Think about the angle." Well, a roundhouse kick comes at you in an arc, like a hook punch. Side kicks, push kicks, snap kicks, and spinning back kicks are all straight angles.

I think he meant the angle that you should take and not the angle of your opponents attack. For example, with a round house kick you can simply move forward or to the opposite side at a 45 degree angle to help take the heat off the kick. You can only do this if your footwork is good.

Good footwork is footwork that will allow you to go when you need it. If your footwork causes you to "Pause" or "get set" before you actually move then you need to work on your footwork and how to position yourself so you can move at will.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Can you explain this a bit more? I am not able to work out what you mean by toe side and heel side.

Imagine the foot at the end of a side kick. Toes are pointed to inside the target arc, heel is pointed outside it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I have been practicing martial arts for a long time now...since 1995. However, it was primarily in Wing Chun, where we did no sparring. All we did was Chi Sao. We never even got around to Chi Gerk, which is "sticking LEGS" practice.

In other words, I am saying my footwork and sparring experience was very limited until recently. However, I'm finding out that, despite this late introduction to it, I'm doing all right. However, there is one thing that training in the Chi Sao and/or Boxing range has not prepared me for: it's dealing with kicks.

I don't know why they are such an Achilles heel for me. It's not related to hesitation anymore. At first it was, because I didn't want to get hit. However, I find myself overcoming this fear rather quickly. I think it is a combination of knowing how to defend against them, and then reaction time to actually pull it off.

I've been caught by kicks where, as they were coming at me, it looked like slow-motion...yet I still got tagged! I am talking about roundhouse kicks off the rear leg, and even a spinning back kick.

I'm trying like crazy to keep remembering what Emin Boztepe said in one of his videos: "Don't think about the attack. Think about the angle." Well, a roundhouse kick comes at you in an arc, like a hook punch. Side kicks, push kicks, snap kicks, and spinning back kicks are all straight angles.

In my mind, I have an idea what would work. Now it is just a matter of testing that in reality. What I mean is this: whatever angle they use, you use the opposite. So if someone comes at you with the arc of a roundhouse kick, then you step straight into them. If they use a push kick, then you use what I call "zoning" or "angling" footwork so you (1) evade the straight attack and then (2) can come in at them from an angle.

I know talking about it on a forum only does so much good, because I cannot test it here! LOL Still, I just wanted to write it down and see if it made sense when I read it. Plus, by sharing it with you folks, I can get feedback and/or how YOU handle kicks.

A lot of good input already, Steve. I haven't finished reading it all, so this might be redundant.

One thought - are you practicing responses to kicks in drills (with a partner who has decent kicks)? You have to build the response over time. I bring this up because you mentioned the slow-motion sense of seeing it coming, but not responding. That sounds like your brain processing and looking for something to work with, and simply not coming up with a response in time. Drills shorten that process - that's what we really mean when we refer to "muscle memory". Drills also increase pattern recognition, which is useful if the drills use a kick set-up that is similar enough to what you'll see in sparring. Best advice for this is to pick someone whose kicks give you trouble, and work responses to that particular person's kicks as a starting point. Over time, you'll want to generalize that by finding people with similar-but-not-identical kicks to drill against.

Even if you just made some up (somebody made up every response, so you're likely to come up with some of the usual ones on your own), and practiced them against kicks, you'd have a set of weapons that would give you SOME response. Of course, if you can pick up some ideas that work for others and fit the movement patterns of WC, you'll be a step ahead in that process - but you'll still need to drill them.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In any situation, the eyes is where you want to be looking.

There are several schools of thought on this, and I've not found any great evidence one of them is more right than the other.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You don't use the eyes to try to predict where the attack comes from. You can do that if the opponent doesn't expect it, however there is an ulterior motive. I have read a book on neurology and psychology. According to it, in a very simplified manner, humans have slight psychic links to each other; before someone is about to commit to some sort of rash movement such as a strike, if you look into their eyes we "detect" this and subconsciously react that tiny bit faster to the referred movement. Though it's not noticeable, studies prove this.

That might tell you a strike's coming (and that's a very big "might" - people's physical communications are more variable than that), but that can be more than offset by being misled (not just uninformed) as to where the strike is coming from and going to.

 

[drop bear]

Op. It is because your entries are crap. You are probably covering too much distance.

So they will hang back forcing you to make that step. And when you do they just nail you on the way in.

And possibly on the way out as well.

So you get caught mid hop. Which is why you can see the kick but can't move away from it.

Hang back let them come forwards then enter. With both of you moving forwards that reactionary gap is shortened.

 

[Buka]

Makes no difference where you look, just don't switch levels of where you're looking. It takes too long for your vision to adjust levels, even against a slower fighter.

But....I know a few folks that if you're watching their eyes, looking at them or into them, it will shake you up badly, especially the first time. They have scary eyes. Man, I would I love to have that.

 

[marques]

(...)
In my mind, I have an idea what would work. Now it is just a matter of testing that in reality. What I mean is this: whatever angle they use, you use the opposite. So if someone comes at you with the arc of a roundhouse kick, then you step straight into them. If they use a push kick, then you use what I call "zoning" or "angling" footwork so you (1) evade the straight attack and then (2) can come in at them from an angle.

I know talking about it on a forum only does so much good, because I cannot test it here! LOL Still, I just wanted to write it down and see if it made sense when I read it. Plus, by sharing it with you folks, I can get feedback and/or how YOU handle kicks.

A few things came to my mind:

- Great kickers are great kickers. No matter what, you suffer. (But let's assume we're dealing with 'just' good kickers.)

- Better absorbing a weak kick than avoiding perfectly a kick a being finished 1/4 seconds later by another technique. And 'step straight into them' may avoid a strong kick, but be aware it may expose you to punches as well.

What I try to do:

- From each opponent's stance only a few kicks are dangerous (if any). Example: From a sideways stance, a side kick (or spinning kick) is more likely and faster, from a more squared stance a front kick is more likely and faster. We can prepare in advance.

- Each kick needs an exact distance and angle to have the maximum power. Constantly changing (slightly) distance and angles (footwork) is a pre-emptive defense. So...

- Never stopping, so they need to be constantly calculating time and distance. Or throwing shitty kicks. I don't need to move fast. I couldn't anyway.

- Then, I try to counter kicks. If it works, they will not be willing to throw as much kicks.

- Against spinning kicks, I short the distance or front kick the ***/hips. Guessing where he is going to kick and THEN to defend was no good for me.

Another idea:

- Being you a WC guy (short distance fighter, isn't it?) keeping a short distance / pressure will favour you and will mess with any opportunity for a good kick. If you control his/her balance, you don't need to worry about kicks any more. The issue is when you have a Thai boxer or grappler in front of you... (Again, reading stances may give you a gift, if you don't know your opponent in advance.)

To finish, great kickers are hell. If you block, you get hurt. If you run away you get tired. If we can see them, because they can be ingeniously set up.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Op. It is because your entries are crap. You are probably covering too much distance.

So they will hang back forcing you to make that step. And when you do they just nail you on the way in.

And possibly on the way out as well.

So you get caught mid hop. Which is why you can see the kick but can't move away from it.

Hang back let them come forwards then enter. With both of you moving forwards that reactionary gap is shortened.

I hadn't thought of that, and I actually do that to people. I'll have to remember that for future training.

 

[wingchun100]

I think he meant the angle that you should take and not the angle of your opponents attack. For example, with a round house kick you can simply move forward or to the opposite side at a 45 degree angle to help take the heat off the kick. You can only do this if your footwork is good.

Good footwork is footwork that will allow you to go when you need it. If your footwork causes you to "Pause" or "get set" before you actually move then you need to work on your footwork and how to position yourself so you can move at will.

No, in the video where he says this, he is definitely talking about their angle of attack because he compares how a jab and side kick are both straight. A hook punch and roundhouse are both curved angles, etc.

 

[wingchun100]

A great way to learn to see kicks coming and to respond to kicks is to hold pads for a good kicker.
The kicker kicks whenever they want any kick they want and you much respond with the pads. Start slow and light power increasing the speed until you are able to catch their kicks every time. Then start jamming the kicks or getting out just enough to re-enter for counters later.
Then start sparring it again starting slow and building on the speed and timing.
Have fun.

Yes, progress training. This is what I aim for, always, not just with myself but with the people who ask me to teach them. They say, "Why are we learning how to punch in this static stance?" So I explain: start static first to get the motion, add in some dynamic movement and maybe even some level of unpredictability, and then turn it all loose in Chi Sao/sparring.

 

[wingchun100]

roundhouse kicks my son tries to either:

Forward at 45 degree inside the kick (toe side on a horizontal foot) or backwards at 45 degrees outside the kick (heel side)

always at an angle and never forward toward the heel side and never backwards toward the toe side.

I am having trouble visualizing it...ugh, damn message boards!!! LOL

 

[wingchun100]

How you responds to kicks it similar to how you deal with punches. Meaning, the situation will dictate what defense would be best. The angle the attack is thrown from and where it will make contact on you will help determine how you will deal with it.

IMO, shin blocks or "shields" are great against round kicks, we used them in Karate and Kung Fu and it always effective. It's just raising your leg straight up similar to how you throw a knee. Angle your shin towards the incoming kick and point your toes downward. With straight kicks(front, side, etc) I would parry the kick while stepping off at a 45 degree angle to counter attack or throw a kick.

Here's a video

I see what you mean with the parry. I try to keep hands out of the kicking picture, but then again...if you parry with the hand, it's not like you are going to leave your hand down for the rest of the sparring round. I will work it in there.

 

[wingchun100]

You mentioned Emin, he was my Sifu for many years and this is exactly how he taught us to deal with kicks....shut them down by exploding in.
Another tactic we'd use is intercept their kick with a kick...either to the torso, the hip, the thigh of the kicking leg, or even the base leg.
Remember, every kick is a step, every step is a kick, so your kick closes the distance.
And if he's too fast, your kick is still in front of you as tan or bong gerk.

Yes, for sure...intercept with a kick. I have always loved that technique when I watch it, but...pulling it off is a b*tch! LOL

He was your Sifu? Shoot, man...lucky. Does he still do seminars anywhere? Maybe not in the States, but over in Europe?

 

[wingchun100]

In theory -
I move straight in on roundhouse kicks. Get close enough, and they hit you with the thigh rather than the shin or foot. While their leg is still up, they’re pretty much defenseless.

I angle in and away from straight kicks - front, side, etc. So if a right leg front kick comes in, I parry while stepping in at 45 degrees toward the non-kicking leg. If the leg’s still up, they’re defenseless.

Easier said that done.

Then a good kicker adds feints/fakes in there. Starts a lower roundhouse, then somehow gets it up by my head as I’ve parried lower. After I block the roundhouse, it’s turned into a side kick.

I had a real tough time last night. I sparred with a 3rd dan who’s got great kicks. Speed, precision, and can seemingly change the kick at will. I got decent at not falling for his tricks the last few months. Last night, he stopped the fakes. He caught me with every single kick, as I was thinking two and 3 kicks within the kick instead. He kept me honest. Actually, a little too honest. It’s like the defense getting used to the play-action pass (fake hand-off, then throw), and getting burned when it’s actually a hand-off.

Back to square one with him. I’ve got to get to the place where I’ll take the least damage, regardless of what he throws. His wife is even better at kicking, so just when I get a rythym going, I typically have her next in line.

Yes, you are saying what I was thinking too: use the opposite angle. So if they throw a curved kick, step straight in. If they throw a straight kick, you can use a pendulum step to get outside. Or just a side step. I'm playing around with it.

Awesome ideas, y'all!

 

[wingchun100]

It helps if you have some good kickers to work with. Hold pads for them, spar them. Watch their movement.....their initial movement. Just like anything else, you learn to read body language. You'll see that step with the front foot when they kick, or that twitch of the hip when they kick, the bend of the knee, or the subtle shift of the hands [which most people don't realize they have]

Doesn't matter if the kicker is in constant motion before kicking, you'll still see the reads as they start to kick. What if they feint? You learn to read that movement, too. Watch fighters, especially kickers, feinting. Watch HOW they feint. When you're a kicker that throws feints, you use feints that that will make your opponent react. So you throw a movement that looks like you're coming in. And what you do when you do that is - you show initial movement used in attacking - it's like a menu. A menu of movement.

If you have access to a school that has good kickers, go watch them spar. Really watch them. Don't watch them as a fan, watch them as an instructor. Spend time watching intently - watch their feet on the floor. It's like reading a book. Spend twenty minutes looking at nothing but their feet on the floor as they spar. Just watch them from the knees down.

Most important is where you focus your vision. It really doesn't matter where, you can look at their chest, their hips, their knees, their feet, whatever you like. But you look there at all times. If you shift your vision from one plane to another you're likely to become a heavy bag. Fighters will eat you alive if you shift your vision. Absolutely smoke you.

And you have to spar against kickers. Contact sparring. There is no real feedback if there is no physical reason not to get kicked. I don't mean kill each other, just hit each other.

And if YOU ARE A GOOD KICKER, you need to do a lot of mirror work. No, not looking at how cool your kicks are. [Oh, yes you do!] Look at your initial movement. Look at your tells. Look at your front foot when you kick. Then have your dojo mate video you on your phone when you spar. You might be stepping with that front foot when you spar, even if you aren't doing it on the bag, the pads or in the mirror. You'll be surprised how much you give away. Just like the guy you're sparring is giving things away.

The big trick in what you say occurs in your third paragraph: "If you have access to a school with good kickers..."

'Round these parts, we have a lot of Tae Kwon Do schools. Most of them are run by the same people, and it is more of a place where people take their little ones so they get some kind of physical activity. So you have a class full of people kicking, but it's people that come up to your waist. LOL

Still, the idea is sound. I will browse around and find a place that has folks more my size, who are really trying to get good at kicks.