Sparring against Shotokan Black Belt

Discussion in 'Members in Motion' started by Azulx, Feb 12, 2017.

  1. gpseymour

    gpseymour Senior Master

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    I just couldn't help agreeing with that, Buka. :angelic:
     
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  2. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Senior Master

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    This will always be a problem as long as people use it as an identifier or expectation of skill level or knowledge of a system.

    This is where I think belted systems get into trouble. I put myself in the same scenario that you described and I asked myself, what should they expect of me? The first answer was. It doesn't matter, they will find out when I speak or will see it when I do the drills.

    I like this video because this is a perfect example of how people let the belt determine their expectations.
     
  3. gpseymour

    gpseymour Senior Master

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    The expectation is not a problem, when applied appropriately. In NGA, a given belt rank (up to black) sets a reasonable range of expectations. I know what I should be able to expect in ability, control, and intensity at each rank. I lower the expectation slightly if the person is from a school I don't know (just for safety, to allow for the inevitable variations), but otherwise it's a fairly safe bet. The problem is if someone comes into an NGA school with a belt from a system the people there don't understand (Azulx's black belt in one direction, and a BJJ blue in the other, perhaps) and people don't adjust their expectation. If people react with the expectation they can safely use within the art, it can be problematic.

    When I go to another style, I make no assumptions at first. I'll evaluate as quickly as I can to get some level-setting. Once I know what (for instance) an orange belt usually means at that school, I'll just keep that expectation for that group. I actually find the belts helpful in that context, once I have seen some examples to help set the expectation. It keeps me from having to start my assessment anew with each person. Instead, I can compare them to the mental model I've created for their rank, as I'm practicing with them (using that mental model as a staring point for safety).
     
  4. Psilent Knight

    Psilent Knight White Belt

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    Greetings Friends,

    Concerning the idea that Azulx and his Shotokan opponent resembled each other in fighting style may be due to the agreed upon sparring rules. The sparring rules say which techniques can and cannot be used and which parts of the body are legal or illegal targets. Because of this there are only a handful of techniques you can use and only a handful of targets that you can attack. Then there is the confined sparring area and a couple of other factors.

    But with this you are going to have sparring matches in which two people from two different styles will not look distinctive from one another. If we take a Shaolin Kung Fu fighter and put him in the boxing ring, with boxing gloves and he agrees to abide by the rules of boxing, he too will look like an American boxer instead of a Shaolin Kung Fu practitioner.

    Now if Azulx and his opponent in the video were fighting an actual death match where anything goes and they are free to do everything and use everything they have learned in their respective styles, I think that the differences between the two would become more apparent.
     
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  5. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    If Azulx lost though we wouldn't get to see the video.... :D
     
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  6. Psilent Knight

    Psilent Knight White Belt

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    I think we would, just not on MT. The other guy would have posted it with pleasure for the bragging rights. :D
     
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  7. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Senior Master

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    I understand what you are saying about the rule, but if a martial arts practitioner is using the techniques that are found in his form and drills then there are more than a handful of techniques available. We usually only see "a handful of techniques" because many martial art practitioners don't practice beyond the jab in sparring and the sloppy backfist (point sparring).

    Not every hand strike in martial arts is a designated death blow and the majority of the people out there can't pull off the techniques in sparring even if they wanted to. The reason why they can't pull off addition hand strikes is because they don't train them in sparring and not because they are deadly.
     
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  8. Psilent Knight

    Psilent Knight White Belt

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    Actually, there is another reason; perhaps the most important reason of all and one which I should have pointed out in my prior post. I believe the reason is that under the agreed upon sparring rules certain techniques are preferable whereas others are non preferable.

    The reasons some techniques are preferred and utilized while others are not are many; such as high percentage vs low percentage rate of certain techniques, speed of delivery, economy, safety factors vs risk factors when using certain techniques, the best fighting stance to use, etc.

    In Knockdown/Bare Knuckle Karate sparring elbow techniques are allowed to the body but I have NEVER seen it done in any sparring matches I've ever seen, I do not do it myself when I spar, I have never done it when sparring and it has never been done to me. I can assure you we drill various applications of elbow techniques all the time and most of us are quite adept at using them.

    So if elbow techniques to the body are allowed then why is it that they are never used? Because under those some rules knees to the head and face are also allowed. So what's going to happen if a person lowers his center of gravity and go in for an elbow attack to the body? :cool:

    That type of technique in knockdown rules sparring is low percentage scoring while also high risk at the same time. Not worth it. The safety while delivery factor is not good enough. Thus, another reason, perhaps the primary reason, that Azul and his opponent both stick to almost the same techniques and same fighting style under the agreed upon sparring rules.

    Take Care Friends,
    Osu!
     
  9. Psilent Knight

    Psilent Knight White Belt

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    *Edit: Meant to say under those same rules.......*
     
  10. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Senior Master

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    If a martial artist trains his techniques during sparring then those techniques will no longer be a low percentage technique. The only way to get those techniques into the high percentage category is to train the application of those techniques in the context of sparring. Speed of delivery, economy (not even sure that refers to), and safety factors can all be managed by training control as well as Power and Speed. The only techniques they should stay away from is where even the smallest slip can cause serious injury or permanent damage, like don't play around with techniques that target the eyes. Techniques that don't take much effort to destroy something should be avoided.
    Here are TKD hand techniques. The majority of these techniques can be done with the exception of those that fit into what I stated.


    All of this can be done in sparring without sending someone to the hospital.


    If a technique is low percentage then it's because the person didn't train it in sparring.

    I do elbows in my sparring session. I just don't direct them to my sparring partners face and I don't try to blast them in. I have video of me doing this, and people who know me well enough in this group will tell you, that I probably have a video of me using elbows if I say I have one. lol.

    My opinion about sparring is that a person shouldn't spar to win. The reason I say this is because if I have to "Win" a fight then I'm going to go all out. Sparring gives students a unique opportunity to practice dangerous techniques while minimizing the risks of injury. In other words your partner won't knock you out if you do a technique the wrong way.

    They probably aren't used because the people don't know how to use the elbows are they can't control the impact of the elbow. For example, At my school the beginners aren't allowed to use elbows because they don't control it well. I've seen a brother elbow his sister right in the chest and it really hurt her. Keep in mind this happened during drilling and not sparring. I sparred with some of the advanced students and they use their elbows as well, but they measure the distance so that I don't run into it, or that it doesn't land full force, or that it turns into more of a bump and not a full on strike.

    I would be shocked if they had rules didn't allow rising blocks, and blocks that looked like this.
     

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