Sparring against Shotokan Black Belt

Discussion in 'Members in Motion' started by Azulx, Feb 12, 2017.

  1. Azulx

    Azulx Black Belt

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    Haven't posted anything in a while. Here's a video of me sparring my friend who is a 1st Dan in Shotokan Karate.


     
  2. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    nice. it is good to spar different systems
     
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  3. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    Forgive me; I'm going to rant a little bit. Before I do that -- kudos to both of you for training, for working out together... My rant's not personal.

    I'm linking two videos of some tournaments from maybe the 70s. (Can't ask Bob easily just this moment). My point about them is that you see competitors from several styles fight. They LOOK different.

    and
    (especially from about 1:00 to 9:00 minutes; there may be some repetition in the two links )

    You guys... you're both in that side stance bouncing thing. You look the same... and if you weren't in different colored uniforms, it'd be kind of hard to say who represented what style. Now, I know there is some historical connection ( ;) ) between Shotokan and Tae Kwon Do -- the two arts have gone their own way. There should be some recognizable differences between you two -- and not just a few more punches.

    Why the hell do we do forms, do you train various stances and tactics... then throw that out when we set down and spar? I see one of two things in most "open" sparring: either that side stance, or a kind of poorly done boxing stance. Now, I recognize that there are "fighting stances" and "formal stances" -- but different styles should have different fighting stances, reflecting their tactics and their strategies. And those should show through in the fighting...

    OK, that's out of my system.

    Like I said, not personal. You guys looked pretty sharp -- and you're out there working. Maybe I've given you (and others) some food for thought in their training...
     
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  4. Headhunter

    Headhunter Senior Master

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    Good fight I think shotokan guy probably landed the better shots as he mixed it up with his punches and kicks and the different heights
     
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  5. Headhunter

    Headhunter Senior Master

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    Honestly who cares what they look like as long as they fight that's all that matters. In a real fight you won't get bonus points for looking like a taekwondo fighter. Personally I don't care what I look like as long as what I do works when I need it
     
  6. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    We would be shouted at very loudly and irately for having our hands down. Doesn't matter what style...hands up!


    It does matter what they look like, not from an aesthetic view point but from a technical one to get the most out of your training and the techniques. We train specifically to have techniques that work, it doesn't matter whether they are 'pretty' or not, it matters they are done so they are effective in their purpose.
    Anyone can fight, most of us can fight without any training but fighting effectively is a different thing, that's why we train. the styles should look different, if they do it means their techniques are effective, if you can't tell what style they are by their sparring then it means the techniques are a mishmash and not done properly therefore are not effective.
     
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  7. O'Malley

    O'Malley Green Belt

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    Nice video!

    Well, first of all I have no background in either art so take my comments with the proverbial grain of salt.

    I do see a difference in stance and behaviour. The guy in white feels "squarer ", more "grounded" while the other has more dynamic kicks and throws them in combinations. I'm guessing that OP is the man in the black gi.

    The "issue" here is that the karate friend, even though he drops into a low stance, stays really "bouncy". Does he compete in Shotokan point fighting? I'd also keep in mind the fact that it was just light sparring where you both were trying out stuff.

    IMHO it would have looked more like karate VS TKD if your friend had committed to the "one hit kill" approach with linear bursts. Then you would have had to be more careful about not letting him get into range and retaliating with kicks. And I agree with the others on the subject of keeping your hands up :)

    Just my 2 cents.
     
  8. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    I have a lot to say but I'll just say 2 things. Stop the bouncing. It's a waste of energy and if you fight someone like me, then I'm going to time your bounce and put you on the ground or give you bruised shins and legs, or both. Half way through the video you stopped bouncing (which is good) and it probably felt good to.

    The other thing I have to say is to learn how to block kicks with your legs. Reaching down is a bad habit and is a common mistake even with professional fighters who know better. Create an imaginary boundary. Anything in the top area is addressed with hands, anything in the bottom area is address with legs. If you want to block low kicks with your hands then you need to lower your stance. This way the low kicks are now in your top boundary. This way you are always training better defensive habits. Other than that you have come a long way from your first video. Great work.

    This gets to me too. If anyone wants to piss me off do this. People train forms and stances for 7 years and then when it comes to the fight none of that is present. It means that the person wasted their time in training. It's also the reason why traditional martial art systems are bashed so often as being useless.
     
  9. Flatfish

    Flatfish Black Belt

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    I completely get what you and @jks9199 are saying but I think it boils down to what sparring especially in competition in the different arts has evolved into over the years. It's a constant gripe of mine in the Kukki TKD I train. It could be so much more but good luck finding someone who teaches something different from competition style sparring. I know they are out there but none in my area that I have found........
     
  10. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    I'm happy to say you will not see this sort of sparring at our dojang. And I agree, it's a shame that so much of sparring has devolved in this way.
     
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  11. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    Yes. Yes and yes again. A complete waste of energy, if you are young and skinny you won't use as much but dear me if you aren't you are using up so much. Besides, there's something pathetically funny about large people bouncing when they spar.
     
  12. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Or evolved. How do you fair sparring these guys?
     
  13. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    Against people who spar with their hands down? Pretty well.
    Last time I competed, I was 53. Because there was no geriatric age group, I sparred in the 30-35 year old black belt class. The people I sparred were from schools that typically do hands down WTF-style sparring. That tournament scored punches and allowed punches to the head. I took gold.

    Against those two specific individuals? I don't know. I've never met them. But assuming a ruleset that doesn't force me to spar using only a tiny subset of what TKD teaches, I think I'd do pretty well.

    How about you?
     
  14. Headhunter

    Headhunter Senior Master

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    Well since the ops only been training for about 3 years and you a lot longer I should hope so.
     
  15. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    A black belt in 3 years is, like hands down sparring, not something that will be seen in our school.
     
  16. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Nice work on the win.

    For me. It depends on the level of the guy. I mostly spar kuyokashin guys who are also pretty hands down. I have met some sporty TKD guys who were a handfull. And of course there are TKD sporty strikers doing well in MMA at the moment Moontasari comes to mind.

    Who has developed from this.


    to this


    Havent sparred a traditional TKD guy.

    The tiny subset forces a person to develop in a specific area. Which is a reasonable outcome of sparring. I feel there is benifit from sparring different sub sets of course as well as people from different systems.

    I dont subscribe to the "I would have taken him if there were whatever rules" It is kind of not the point of the exercise.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2017
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  17. chrispillertkd

    chrispillertkd Senior Master

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    Nice match. You both did pretty well. I'd concentrate a little more on fully extending your leg when you kick since it looked like some of them missed their target because the knee was bent.

    FWIW, the stylistic differences between you and your friend were fairly evident.

    Pax,

    Chris
     
  18. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    I don't disagree with sparring with a focus on a specific skill. We've been known to spar punches only. Or kicks only. Or limit the total number of attacks a person can make during a round. It's when that sort of limited, small focus sparring is the ONLY thing you do that I see a problem.
     
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  19. Flatfish

    Flatfish Black Belt

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    Right and that gets to my point....there are schools out there that do things differently and that's great, but they are few and far between...for those that are not so lucky to have access to that training philosophy, but have a brain in their head we'll try to use it to the best of our abilities......I try to keep my hands up, don't bounce but I did get my BB in 3 years, so not sure where I fall there....
     
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  20. Azulx

    Azulx Black Belt

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    I actually just made 2 years last month.
     

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