South American Martial Arts?

Taker87

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First of all Capoeira is angola's martial art and when angolans were brought to brazil they intermarried with the brazilian women teaching their children their martial art. Capoeira in brazil was designed to look like a dance rather than martial art do to the fact that martial arts were outlawed during the spanish/portuguese empire.
 

Taker87

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Argentinean martial arts are native to south america but have a european twist to it kind of like the people
 
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arnisador

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There's a south american martial art called "Rumi Maki"

I saw the book at a bookstore recently. I was somewhat skeptical! I assume that, like pankration, it's largely recreated? This book says it means "Stone Hand" and was the "nom de guerre of Teodomiro Gutiérrez".
 

Taker87

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Not at all? I could tell because I've studied chinese, japanese, vietnamese, korean, malaysian, thai, plains, hawaiian, persian, indian, angolan, russian, greek martial arts and rumi maki is different from them, the author gives a history about the art itself and even knows the battlefield strategies of the south american warrior. Rumi Maki incorporates striking, grappling, weaponry, medicine used by the south american warrior it's a MMA just like pankration.
 

Taker87

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It depends who you learn pankration from. Some "pankration instructors" trained in japanese martial arts like Jui Jitsu and modify it and call it pankration. Jim Arvanitis is a greek american who's goal was to revive the ancient greek combat techniques into a martial art (pankration, panmachia, pankratium, etc.) He was born in greece and studied by looking at ancient vase drawings, statues, etc. depicting techniques of ancient pankration. The actors of the movie "300" trained with some of his fellow instructors to develop the combat training and techniques of the ancient greek warriors. He is considered the father of modern pankration and his form is considered to be the most accurate.
 

Taker87

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Capoeiras(kipura) goes back to angola which was brought by angolans who brought their martial influence to brazil. the full bloods the kalapalo have their own martial arts on the show last one standing it shows six foreigners training and competing in kalo palo wrestling. Plus there's Rumi Maki (Stone Hand) which origins go back to Tawantinsuyu. The argentinean martial arts have alot of spanish and italian influences.
 

Taker87

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BJJ was brought to Brazil by the Gracie family who trained in Jiu Jitsu in Japan, Capoeira (kipura) was brought over from angola to brazil. The only authentic ones I know are Rumi Maki(Stone Hand) which comes from Tawantinsuyu (Ecuador, Peru, etc.) and Kalo Palo wrestling which comes from the Amazonians
 

Taker87

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Does Capoeira(Kipura) cover all ranges of fighting (grappling, groundfighting, weaponry, etc) or is it just a striking art?
 

Flying Crane

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First of all Capoeira is angola's martial art and when angolans were brought to brazil they intermarried with the brazilian women teaching their children their martial art.

This is not true. Capoeira developed in Brazil, but it developed from elements of fighting methods that were brought from Africa and mixed in Brazil, into what we now know of as capoeira. In addition to the African roots, it is believed that elements of Native Brazilian and White Portuguese methods may have also found their way into the art. It is difficult to say exactly, as much of its history prior to the early 1900s has been lost.

But capoeira itself, is not indigenous to Africa. It is not an art that was simply transplanted from Africa to Brazil, fully formed as we have it today.
 

Flying Crane

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Does Capoeira(Kipura) cover all ranges of fighting (grappling, groundfighting, weaponry, etc) or is it just a striking art?

It is a method that utilizes mostly striking, sweeping, tripping, and some throwing techniques. True ground fighting is not part of capoeira, at least in how I would say most schools practice it today.

It is possible that earlier forms of the art, from say, the 1700s and 1800s into the early 1900s may have included these elements, as its need for effective fighting techniques would have been stronger during that time. Nowadays, while the art can be useful for fighting, I would suggest that most people don't really practice for that. Under these changing needs, if the art once had ground grappling techniques, they have been minimized or even lost altogether. The overall approach that the art takes in practice actively excludes actual grappling methods. This is because in the roda, the goal is to create a flowing physical dialogue that follows the pattern of a combat. But if the physical dialogue turned into a grappling match, the creative flow of the roda is destroyed.

However, I have seen capoeira games turn into a wresting match. This is generally frowned upon, and considered that the participants have fallen out of capoeira and are doing something else. This sometimes happens when tempers flare and grudges come to the surface in the roda, and someone wants to taste blood. It can get brutal, and there are definitely capoeiristas who are tough dudes that nobody in their right mind would want to fight.
 

Flying Crane

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BJJ was brought to Brazil by the Gracie family who trained in Jiu Jitsu in Japan

This also is not accurate.

Maeda, who was a top student of Jigoro Kano at the Kodokan, brought a very aggressive version of Judo to Brazil, where he was a successful fighter. He taught the method to the Gracie family while in Brazil. The Gracies have taken this art and made it their own.

Brazil actually has a pretty large population of Japanese immigrants.
 

Taker87

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That's true but the gracies were one of the very first to learn the grappling style of the japanese and the art is still pretty much of japanese origin.
 

Taker87

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KIpura originates from angola just like Brazil, angola was under portuguese rule for 300+ years. The kipura of angola and the capoeira of brazil arent too much different the only difference is the capoeira style has more dancing than the kipura style because martial arts were outlawed by the portuguese so they disguised the martial art into a dance form. If you want to see true martial arts of brazilian origin there's this show called called Last Man Standing the very first episode deals with kalapalo wrestling 6 foreigners go to the kalapalo to train and compete in kalapalo wrestling.
 

Taker87

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Kipura(Capoeira) deals with empty hand techniques, weaponcraft, dancing, and healing so its an all around martial art in my book
 

lklawson

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That's true but the gracies were one of the very first to learn the grappling style of the japanese and the art is still pretty much of japanese origin.
So? Sure it's only "Western" in-as-much as some may say that it was nominally (re)developed in "The West" (sorta). However, the fact remains that Count Koma took Judo to Brazil and taught it there, and the Gracies learned from him.

I'll also state that modern BJJ authorities hold that the evolution of BJJ puts it distinctly different from it's Judo origins, far more than even, for instance, Kendo is separated from traditional Kenjutsu Ryu's.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
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Banned from Boxing! The forgotten grappling techniques of historic Pugilism
http://www.lulu.com/lawson

Western Martial Arts - http://cbd.atspace.com/

"...it's the nature of the media and the participants. A herd of martial artists gets together and a fight breaks out; quelle surprise."
-Chas speaking of rec.martial-arts
 

Taker87

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Modern day brazilians can trace their ancestry not only back to the arawak but also people they intermarried with like the Portuguese and angolans possibly even the inca. But before you make any claims to that you would have to study the arts first such as arawak martial arts, iberian martial arts, and angolan martial arts. I've studied all of them and their doesnt seem to be any resemblance between them.
 

Taker87

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So the point is you cant claim it to be of brazilian origin if it's roots go back to japan.
 

Taker87

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Rumi Maki is the martial art of the andean people. That's an authentic american martial not some export from another continent
 

Taker87

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Rumi Maki is the martial art of the tawanese people. I've studied Bod(tibetan), thai, burmese, cambodia, vietnamese, malaysian,korean, japanese, keralan, tamil, persian, arabian, sinai, greek, iberian, russian, british, german, lakotan, incan, arawak, hawaiian, angolan, nuban, senegalese martial arts
 

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