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Rob_Broad
Guest
If I am correct, and I couold easily be wrong, it is not opposing forces, but borrowed force you are talking about Vince. The kick to the groin propels the attacker forward into your knifehand.
sources of power
- Thread starter JD_Nelson
- Start date
V
vincefuess
Guest
Yes Rob, I agree!!! The difference between borrowed force and opposing force is often a very fine line. I usually consider borrowed force (in my own application) to CARRY the motion or continue the motion my opponent started to my advantage. When I MEET his motion (like two cars colliding) I consider it opposing forces.
There's alot of grey area in defining the physical principles of any given technique- look at the dialog we just spent on the very first technique of the system!
Thanks Rob- I really do love the "nuts and bolts" aspects of applications, and I appreciate the fact you take the time to debate these finer points. Not only are WE richer for the exchange, but novice practitioners reading the post are greatly enriched. I wish I had such a resource when I was younger!
There's alot of grey area in defining the physical principles of any given technique- look at the dialog we just spent on the very first technique of the system!
Thanks Rob- I really do love the "nuts and bolts" aspects of applications, and I appreciate the fact you take the time to debate these finer points. Not only are WE richer for the exchange, but novice practitioners reading the post are greatly enriched. I wish I had such a resource when I was younger!
J
John_Boy
Guest
Maybe I can help shed a little light...
Bruce did advocate a type of block...however nothing that could be considered a traditional hard style block.
JKD is all about economy of motion (like kenpo). One thing that is taught by Dan Inosanto is that systems can also be slow or fast, not just people. (ie. A block and then a punch is much slower than a block with a simultaneous punch.) Therefore a slower person can beat a faster person if the slower person is moving with greater efficiency than the faster person. The stop hit can be an example of this.
Anyway, wing chun very specifically deals with how to beat a faster, bigger, stonger, younger opponent. Partly through sensitivity and another way through economy of motion. This was Bruce's background when he started to develop JKD. He then added many principals he found in other systems to compliment what he was doing.
I think I lost sight of what I was trying to answer with this, but that is easy to do when discussing JKD concepts when you're tired!
John
Bruce did advocate a type of block...however nothing that could be considered a traditional hard style block.
JKD is all about economy of motion (like kenpo). One thing that is taught by Dan Inosanto is that systems can also be slow or fast, not just people. (ie. A block and then a punch is much slower than a block with a simultaneous punch.) Therefore a slower person can beat a faster person if the slower person is moving with greater efficiency than the faster person. The stop hit can be an example of this.
Anyway, wing chun very specifically deals with how to beat a faster, bigger, stonger, younger opponent. Partly through sensitivity and another way through economy of motion. This was Bruce's background when he started to develop JKD. He then added many principals he found in other systems to compliment what he was doing.
I think I lost sight of what I was trying to answer with this, but that is easy to do when discussing JKD concepts when you're tired!
John
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Rob_Broad
Guest
I have been told by many that the 3 principles of power are Torque, Back Up Mass, and Gravitational Marriage. I know of Opposing Forces, Borrowed force, but I do no believe these to be part of the 3 principles of power.
Hi Rob,
I've been exploring the power principles for a little while now and they get more and more confusing. There seems to be a lot of overlapping and gray areas. First off, isn't gravitational marriage actually just back up mass on a vertical as opposed to horizontal plane? And then, isn't borrowed force just the use of someone elses backup mass? They seem to be subcatagories of the 3 original principles. If that's the case, wouldn't opposing forces be torque in disguise?
In the case of delayed sword, opposing forces can be used with the last handsword. Ideally it would be used after planting the front kick to the nerves on the inside of the thigh, planting, and snapping to your neutral. Its sort of the same motion as the hammer in sword and hammer or the last handsword in the extention for 5 swords. It is very strong and very powerful, but you must make sure that your right hip is in proper alignment with your weapon.
This brings up another point. Structural alignment isn't mentioned as a power principle, but if you do not have the proper body mechanics and alignments in your blocks or strikes, you lose power. So is this a compliment to the power principles or an integral part of them? Or is it just a given?
Just some of the things I've been playing with.
Mace
I've been exploring the power principles for a little while now and they get more and more confusing.
There seems to be a lot of overlapping and gray areas. First off, isn't gravitational marriage actually just back up mass on a vertical as opposed to horizontal plane? And then, isn't borrowed force just the use of someone elses backup mass? They seem to be subcatagories of the 3 original principles. If that's the case, wouldn't opposing forces be torque in disguise? In the case of delayed sword, opposing forces can be used with the last handsword. Ideally it would be used after planting the front kick to the nerves on the inside of the thigh, planting, and snapping to your neutral. Its sort of the same motion as the hammer in sword and hammer or the last handsword in the extention for 5 swords. It is very strong and very powerful, but you must make sure that your right hip is in proper alignment with your weapon.
This brings up another point. Structural alignment isn't mentioned as a power principle, but if you do not have the proper body mechanics and alignments in your blocks or strikes, you lose power. So is this a compliment to the power principles or an integral part of them? Or is it just a given?
Just some of the things I've been playing with.
Mace
OP
- Thread Starter
- #26
We are all subject to gravity. So if the attacker is falling bending over gravity is also being exerted on him/her.
If we settle or drop into the stance as we execute a downard strike we are adding additional velocity to the downward blow, thus increasing the effect.
In short gravity acts like a multiplier to the strike
JMO
Jeremy
If we settle or drop into the stance as we execute a downard strike we are adding additional velocity to the downward blow, thus increasing the effect.
In short gravity acts like a multiplier to the strike
JMO
Jeremy
iam suprised none of you mentioned path of action while striking to generate force instead of point of action?
later
jay
later
jay
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Rob_Broad
Guest
I believe path of action is the same as path of execution. The path of execution is the route that an offensive move follows when traveling to its target.
path of action is when you strike in let's say the handsword in delayed sword most begginers strike with point of action right? meaning they only hit with the handsword to the neck. well path of action you would use the same path as the handsword but you would hit with the original strike as well as the forearm down to the elbow creating more surface to strike with. path of execution like rob said is the path in which the technique is executed.hope that helped!
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Not Important
Guest
Originally posted by shine
In other systems (Joe Lewis FS in particular, I believe) they lump torque and body mass into one category; torque is a technique allowing you to utilize body mass to full advantage, just as dropping with a downward elbow strike allows you to use gravity to full advantage.
That would leave body mass, body strength and [marriage of] gravity as possible sources for power in a strike. Am I missing any? Oh yeah, there is chi power. That's in volume 6, but only special students got a copy of the unfinished manuscript.
Wow?????
Book 6 uh???
Did you know that book 6 was the Encyclopedia, which was published after Mr. Parkers unfortunate death.
I find this story rather amusing of a book 6, do you know when book 5 was completed (not published)?
The answer is about 10 years before it was published. Most of the information in the books was already refined before they even hit the market. Some modifications were made just before publishing, but those mainly reffered to the techniques them selves, and the pictures in the book. For example in book 5, the web of knowledge contains the Knuckaku set, which I challenge anyone to find an instructor that can teach that to them. I know that Mr. Parker taught it in the early 70's, but I don't remember anyone that was captivated by it sticking around very long.
I would be interested in hearing about who told you this story of book 6, sounds interesting.
As for Chi, I am currently writing a book on the subject, and am talking with two different publishers. If you would like to get into that aspect of the power generation I would more than welcome the subject matter.
Also the main source for power is in your stance, second would be your body positioning, third would be gravitaional marriage, fourth would be rotational torque, fifth would be back up mass, sixth would be borrowed force, and the seventh is your physical strength.
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shine
Guest
Oh I just made that up :idea: . The idea of a lost book/scroll containing secret knowledge is very appealing martial arts lore.
Keep us posted!
