Somtimes they get it SoOOOOOO Wrong.

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by JowGaWolf, Oct 14, 2019.

  1. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    I was looking for a picture of a low kick for a different post and came across this video. This is defense against the "Oblique kick" and the defenses here are garbage.

    1. The kick is extremely quick and it usually happens in a moments notice. There's no wind up to it.
    2. Unlike other kicks, this kick works because the attacker is waiting for you to be in the worst possible position to defend against it, which is usually bearing weight on the lead leg.
    3. This is a high success rate technique. The only reason it doesn't work is because the person doing it sucks at it.
    4. This kick targets the rooting leg, So trying to leg check it is just going to make me go after that nice one leg stance

    The kick doesn't always have to "stomp down" an a person's leg. I shoot my kick out horizontally to strike the shins.Which causes internal damage to the calf muscle.as the shock from the kick literally bounces the muscle away from the bone.and then slams the muscle back into the bone. (I learned this the hard way).

    These defenses do not and will not work against someone who knows how to use this kick.


    This stuff reminds me of some Kung Fu stuff where the guys make assumptions about defending against a strike and just say, "yeah all you have to do, is do this" and it's never based on the experience of having to deal with that particular strike.

    Lesson to learn: Do do this stuff if you are trying to defend against that type of kick. You'll lose every time if the person is good and you'll put yourself in more danger
     
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  2. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    1. How is there no windup to a kick that goes up and then down?
    2. How is this different from other kicks? All kicks you should try and throw when your attacker is in a bad position to defend it. Also, a lot of people throw them at the wrong time.
    3. Can't really comment because it sounds like you're talking about two different kicks
    4. This is a block done if you are already kicking. The planted leg is further back. Are you really telling me that this kick that is so fast you can't even notice it (according to #1), you can see the block and redirect for another leg at another angle?
    If someone is going to stomp down on my thigh, the things he suggested absolutely make sense to me. And most of what I train are kicks.
     
  3. isshinryuronin

    isshinryuronin Green Belt

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    This oblique kick looks like a standard kick in Isshinryu called soba kon ate. I originally learned it as a "cross over kick" where you stomp down on the back or side of knee, or the instep. But it can certainly be done straight out horizontal as well, as shown in the OP video. Done properly, this variant of the kick is quite fast. Thrown straight out, I think the kick is most effective when used on the thigh of a leg in the process of stepping in as a "stop hit", to be followed by a strike. It also works well after trapping or seizing a hand and using the kick to topple the opponent. Not one of my best kicks, but I've seen it used effectively by others.
     
  4. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    • Because the kick travels from the back to the front. There's no need to pull it back to cock the kick. You just move it forward.
    • A kick that moves up doesn't mean it's a wind up. The level and striking service that someone chooses to use will vary depending on what they are targeting. If I' going to strike using my heel then I need to lift my knee in order to position kick to strike with the heel.
    • This kick is also done on different levels. It doesn't have to hit above the kneed. It can target the shin or the ankle as well either horizontally or downward depending on the distance that the kick is done at.
    Same kick, targeting lower. Notice there is no wind up. It's just like fighting with power hand back. No need to wind up the punch because it's already in a ready state. Same concept but with a kick. I only need to move my leg forward.


    This kick is thrown when your opponent is putting weight on their front leg. When you kick at that moment, they cannot escape without shifting their weight. With other kicks, you are aiming for openings, so it doesn't matter if their front leg is rooted or not. With this kick it matters a great deal. If you were sparring with me, and I saw you try to defend against this kick then I would just attack your rooting leg. Low if you move your forward leg back and move your rear leg forward. I will attack your rear leg as it is coming forward. Do this will guarantee that you won't escape. You can leg check all you want, but by doing so you give me a path to your standing leg, which is rooted. Again you won't be able to escape, until your other legs come down to help you shift weight to move. By then it's too late for you.

    It's the same kick. Just like jab is a jab.I can jab you in your face, or I can jab you in the chest. If I take a lower stance, then I 'll be able to jab you in the abdomen.

    The kick is faster than you think. If you have never had someone who is good with this kick then you wouldn't understand. These are slower kicks done in training..



    As for your leg check. If you can check this kick then it means your other leg is close by. The standing leg is in range of this kick. The lower the stance the longer the range will be on this kick.

    upload_2019-10-14_22-51-13.png

    Still don't believe me. Here 's the distance before he lifted his leg. Look at how close the 2 legs are. He has more than enough range to reach the second leg.

    upload_2019-10-14_22-58-25.png

    If someone is going to kick down on the top of your thigh then all you have to do is lower your stance or shuffle back wards. Down strikes don't travel far so a shuffle backwards in a lowered stance will get you out of the rang. A lower stance also causes a downward kick to get a bad angle and the kick won't land solid.
     

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  5. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    The easiest way to deal with a below knee kick is to bend leg back at your knee. If your opponent can bend his knee and escape your low kick, he can grab your kicking leg and take you down.



     
  6. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    In the first video you showed, there's still a windup. I didn't go farther than that.
     
  7. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    In my opinion the first video raises the knee too high. I would only raise my knee that high if I wanted to have the option of the option of kicking the chest to waist height like a tee in muay thai. The higher the kick the more risk there is of my leg being caught.

    I just did a few to take note of the mechanics when I kick down ward. My leg lift travels along a curve. It didn't travel along a peak. I tried the same kick from the front leg and I found myself raising my knee more. The mechanics also felt unaural to target anything lower than my thigh height.
     
  8. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

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    Sidestepping, checking, retreating.

    This is all pretty standard and time tested stuff dude.
     
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  9. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    The kick you’re talking about is different from the kick they’re discussing.

    The kick you’re doing is called “coup de pied bas” in Savate. It uses a direct swinging/sweeping action. It works best with shoes or boots on because bare foot vs shin isn’t the best matchup.

    The kick that they are discussing in the video uses a chambered stomping action and is generally aimed at the knee or above. It doesn’t matter so much whether you’re wearing shoes.

    Both are effective kicks, but they use different body mechanics.
     
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  10. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    They are teaching defense against a kick to the thigh. That's why they're using those mechanics in the kick.

    If you're going to call someone out on their bad technique, you should probably have an idea of what you're calling out.
     
  11. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    The kick that I use, uses a stomping motion. I don't use a sweeping motion. I even teach it as a stomping motion even for the shin kicks. I describe it as trying to break a wooden plank or a stick by stomping on it. In the video I only show the low kick, but it's the same concept. The kick that I'm showing in the video works with or without shoes.

    I don't use a swinging or sweeping motion with this kick because it damages the knee. if I want to break your ankle with this kick then stomping into it is the best way. if you like I can create a video showing the mechanics of it. I think I'm going to make one any way.
     
  12. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    I can kick downwards on a person's thigh using that kick without raising the knee that high. If that knees is that high then you are probably too close for that type of kick. I'll definitely be making a video on this.
     
  13. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Sure, I’d like to see a breakdown of how you throw the kick. From your first video I interpreted it as a swinging action, but on rewatch I can see you have some (non-chambered) stomp action as well. I still see it as a different motion from the kick commonly used in MMA, though.
     
  14. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    How do you get power into it then?
     
  15. dvcochran

    dvcochran Senior Master

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    Ironically I was working on this last night with a young BB. She has a habit of broadcasting her kick with her body motion. She is super limber and can do head shots from insanely close distances. We were working on out fighting and she was struggling with still using the knee and instead was wanting to swing the kick. When I showed her this kick (which we call a check kick) it clicked for her. She was very strong on this kick or a front leg check. Still having trouble with an inner leg kick (low roundhouse) but she will get there.
     
  16. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    The one
    Not quite sure which kick you are referring to with MMA is it something out of Muay thai like a teep?
     
  17. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    Good question.. I actually had to do a few to answer this one.
    I'll answer this in the video.. I started to type it and it just made things more confusing. Short answer for this is that some martial arts drive power by pushing with the rear leg. Other's drive power by pivoting. This one uses the push with the leg. There's a lot more that goes into the power generation but this is pretty much the concept.

    The second power generation has 3 methods. It is almost like the stomping that is done in this form. The concept is the same which is to generate stomping power within a short movement. Think of it like the "one inch punch" version for stomps.


    The 2nd method is like a snap kick but with the heel. The heel snaps out as the leg hip moves forward and this creates the stomp.

    The 3rd method pushes through like a teep.

    All of this is much easier to show and explain on video.
     
  18. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    Stomping on the ground and stomping on a leg are two different things. With the ground, you have your full weight pushing down right on it. All you have to do is let your foot freefall.
     
  19. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    The swinging of the leg is murder on the knee when that that foot makes impact, the motion of the swing still sends stuff forward and out of the knee and the joints. You can kind of see it here in this screenshot where it looks like his knee is trying to bend side ways. This is what you'll always see me worry about when I see it here on MT. Knees aren't easy to repair, gotta take care of them.
    upload_2019-10-15_21-23-48.png

    I know she was really pumped after that "light bulb" came on and everything made sense.
     
  20. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    That's why I said it's easier to show in the video. This is something that makes more sense when you can see it.. What the video of the guy stomping.and you'll see he's kicking into the ground. You wouldn't get the same sound when you free fall, and when you stomp you can feel the feedback travel back into your leg because the ground doesn't give. This short stomp is the similar to the short stomp I use with this kick. The only major different is that the kick is a horizontal stomp.

    Upkicks are like stomping upward instead of downward




    You have to keep in mind stomps don't always have to travel downward. Don't think so much of the name "stomp" focus more on the motion of a stomp and you'll discover that you can do the same motion or similar motion in various directions other than downwards. Think mechanics of the leg as it makes the stomping motion.
    Similar mechanics see here. because of the way our legs are put together, there's only a few ways we can actually create a stomping movement.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2019
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