Something I saw as I am researching

[TKDTony2179]

To puzzle your minds and get you thinking.


http://www.24fightingchickens.com/2006/07/23/how-long-until-black-belt/

 

[clfsean]

Oh Rob's blog is priceless. It annoys & ruffles lots of people. Me personally, I feel it's needed. I've read his stuff for years now.

 

[lklawson]

To puzzle your minds and get you thinking.


http://www.24fightingchickens.com/2006/07/23/how-long-until-black-belt/

The points he makes are not lost on everyone. It's one reason why Western Martial Arts have gravitated to the historic western "Guild" system still used today by certain Unions and skilled laborers. It is most typically expressed as one of two sets, one more modern and one more historic. Scholar -> Free Scholar -> Provost -> Master. Or: Aprentice -> Journeyman -> Master. There are no more than 3 or 4 and all represent skill. The common use term "Masterpiece" or "Masterwork" comes from this hierarchical system when a Guild member would create a single piece expressing his high skill and mastery of the physical "art" which he was performing. In modern Academia this is equivalent to defending a Doctoral Thesis.

Can you attain more skill after your Master or Doctoral? Of course. Duh. And you publish new content, do research, or otherwise contribute to the community and your peers "Review" and recognize your contributions.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Blindside]

I have always liked Rob's writings even if I haven't done Okinawan or Japanese karate for years now. Internally my FMA org uses a simple student/teacher ranking system with no belt or external visible system of rank. trying to address exactly these issues. There are about four main levels of instructor reflecting technical capability and administrative responsibility, but internally within the org rank is of minimal importance. Rank testing happens at the assistant and full instructor levels, which are really more like weekend long seminars going over system methods or curriculum details. I have been pretty happy about how the system works so far.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I always enjoy reading 24 fighting chickens.

Kirk - it occurs to me that the rank system in BJJ roughly corresponds to the Scholar -> Free Scholar -> Provost -> Master stages you mention. (We do have degrees of black belt, but those really are reflective of time spent teaching rather than further skill development.)

 

[lklawson]

I always enjoy reading 24 fighting chickens.

Kirk - it occurs to me that the rank system in BJJ roughly corresponds to the Scholar -> Free Scholar -> Provost -> Master stages you mention. (We do have degrees of black belt, but those really are reflective of time spent teaching rather than further skill development.)

Yes. I was thinking much the same thing a while ago.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[J W]

I switched from Kenpo to Wing Chun when I was an orange belt, and can't say that I miss belt ranks. I feel more like I can focus on learning for the sake of simply improving my skill rather than learning material in order to prepare for the next belt.

That said, I think belt ranks are necessary for some arts. Kenpo has a large amount of material (forms, sets, "techniques"), so it needs a ranking system in order to organize it all into a syllabus. Wing Chun (our family's version, at least) is much more simplified in that regard, so we can get away without a rank system (relative experience is the only real "rank" system we follow).

I guess where I'd have an issue with belt ranks would be when a more complex system than necessary is used. The fewest ranks that can be used to effectively organize the system would be the way to go, in my opinion.

 

[clfsean]

That said, I think belt ranks are necessary for some arts. Kenpo has a large amount of material (forms, sets, "techniques"), so it needs a ranking system in order to organize it all into a syllabus. Wing Chun (our family's version, at least) is much more simplified in that regard, so we can get away without a rank system (relative experience is the only real "rank" system we follow).

That's truthfully how all CMA's originally are. Now being "westernized" with ranks because it's a) easy to see with a glance who's doing what, and b) it's a hell of a pay day once every "X" period. My first CLF sifu just taught more as you were ready for it. Not before & not "because" of some random date on a calendar.

 

[Argus]

Actually, I liked this article.

To be honest, belts / ranks in Karate are a big turn off for me. As are the many different governing organizations, and sparring / forms competitions. I'd love to see Karate taught in the style of CMA. Or, you know, Karate itself, before it was modernized.

Unfortunately, systems like this can be very difficult to escape once they take hold.

 

[Zero]

It's intersting, take an art like muay thai with no belt system and certainly no belt/grading worn during tournaments. Then take karate generically, also a lot of tournament and kumite focus but all the varying belts. Is an experienced muay thai fighter without a belt any less capable a martial artist or fighter than a third dan blackbelt? What does it all mean?

There are some naturals that just move and look awesome when performing kata and wipe the floor with much more senior practitioners that can be pretty lackluster. You can get some dedicated or simply "natural" green belt that can hand out a whoopin to many blackbelts in kumite. You get some big or athletic guy off the street who can pumel your average, train twice a week for an hour, blackbelt in a brawl.
What does it all mean?

Even in your own system - even own club - there can be questions and disparities. We had a third dan train with us regularly enough from another goju club (which was nice) and he was solid at kata but his technical fighting skills were pretty shabby, he would struggle to do a decent high mawashi and looked just awful trying an ura mawashi geri (I caught sensie rolling his eyes once, hehe). What's that all about?

 

[lklawson]

It's intersting, take an art like muay thai with no belt system and certainly no belt/grading worn during tournaments. Then take karate generically, also a lot of tournament and kumite focus but all the varying belts. Is an experienced muay thai fighter without a belt any less capable a martial artist or fighter than a third dan blackbelt? What does it all mean?

There are some naturals that just move and look awesome when performing kata and wipe the floor with much more senior practitioners that can be pretty lackluster. You can get some dedicated or simply "natural" green belt that can hand out a whoopin to many blackbelts in kumite. You get some big or athletic guy off the street who can pumel your average, train twice a week for an hour, blackbelt in a brawl.
What does it all mean?

Even in your own system - even own club - there can be questions and disparities. We had a third dan train with us regularly enough from another goju club (which was nice) and he was solid at kata but his technical fighting skills were pretty shabby, he would struggle to do a decent high mawashi and looked just awful trying an ura mawashi geri (I caught sensie rolling his eyes once, hehe). What's that all about?

As an administrator (the guy in charge of the decisions) you have to decide what a belt grading represents. What exactly does a given belt rank mean? Does it represent technical skill? Knowledge of the system & techniques? Raw fighting ability? A combination of all?

What exactly is a belt supposed to represent?

Answer this and you'll answer your question of "what does it all mean?"

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Argus]

We had a third dan train with us regularly enough from another goju club (which was nice) and he was solid at kata but his technical fighting skills were pretty shabby, he would struggle to do a decent high mawashi and looked just awful trying an ura mawashi geri (I caught sensie rolling his eyes once, hehe). What's that all about?

His school may not place value, or emphasis on high-kicks. I'm not really a Karate practitioner myself, but as I understand it, the kicks performed in kata were historically practiced lower than what is commonly done today.

People tailor their art to how to they used it. In a kumite setting, being able to kick high is advantageous, but in a combative setting, it is risky. A difference in intensity, aggression, intent, rules, and equipment can produce very different results even when the methods are the same.

So, don't be too quick to judge! He (/his school) may simply practice karate with a different goals and considerations.