Some heavy bag training.

[FriedRice]

In the 1950s cultural revolution in China, traditional fighting methods were suppressed and outlawed and a new, modern approach was created by the government. This new approach was based on the old methods, but with one very important difference: it was not intended for fighting. Instead it was intended to be a national performance competition and sport method that was inspired by the old martial methods. This is where the flowery forms come into the picture, which were only intended as a floor routine and not as a tool for training real fighting methods. The application of the movements were ignored, and the movements themselves were altered in favor of aesthetics. They look pretty but the structure and technique was undermined so it is no longer a viable fighting method.

This is known as "Modern Wushu". These are what you see in the big tournaments with lots of fancy and flowery forms with leaps and jumps and acrobatics. Some of these people are outstanding athletes, but they do not train in a real fighting method.

The forms found in the older, traditional fighting methods are not flowery like this, as they are meant to be a functional training tool. Unfortunately many people do not understand the difference. Some sifu teach the modern wushu forms and let their students believe they are learning traditional fighting methods. That is a shame and possibly a fraud it done deliberately and knowingly. Some people just don't even know what it is that they have been taught, and believe it is one thing when in reality it is the other. Some people believe the modern forms are viable fighting methods, not knowing they were never even intended to be.

You just blew my mind. That is some incredibly interesting stuff. The Cultural Revolution was the joint that shut down the Shaolin Temple too.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You just blew my mind. That is some incredibly interesting stuff. The Cultural Revolution was the joint that shut down the Shaolin Temple too.

There are a couple of kung fu movies that show this where, the government didn't want the citizens to have the ability to physically fight back. The big truth about being able to fight and defend yourself is that those who can fight and defend themselves rarely back down. When a fighter backs down, it's literally because he doesn't want to fight, and not because he can't, or doesn't know how to fight.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

There are a couple of kung fu movies that show this where, the government didn't want the citizens to have the ability to physically fight back. The big truth about being able to fight and defend yourself is that those who can fight and defend themselves rarely back down. When a fighter backs down, it's literally because he doesn't want to fight, and not because he can't, or doesn't know how to fight.

Any chance you could share the names of those movies? I would be really interested in watching some of them.

 

[Ironbear24]

I'm going to be uploading more videos shortly. I tried again today but as soon the cam was on I started screwing everything up, I over think it and in general had it at bad angles. I feel like when I try these things without it around I do much better lol.

The first couple times I did fine after so many attempts. I guess I just have to keep in mind that eyes are always watching anyway so I need to learn to not care so much.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I'm going to be uploading more videos shortly. I tried again today but as soon the cam was on I started screwing everything up, I over think it and in general had it at bad angles. I feel like when I try these things without it around I do much better lol.

The first couple times I did fine after so many attempts. I guess I just have to keep in mind that eyes are always watching anyway so I need to learn to not care so much.

Not that I can give advice since I don't video myself working out, but maybe leave it on for like an hour while you're doing it? I'm sure at some point you'll forget that it's there or not overthink it at least for a few minutes.

 

[Flying Crane]

You just blew my mind. That is some incredibly interesting stuff. The Cultural Revolution was the joint that shut down the Shaolin Temple too.

Yeah, there was some really heavy-handed oppression going on. The old methods survived to some extent, but neighbors were expected to report each other and that meant people disappeared. It was a really bad time. Since then things have relaxed and the older people who still remembered the good stuff have worked to bring it back, but a lot was lost and forgotten.

Most of what is now done at the shaolin temple is also modern wushu. The temple is run by the government and they know it's a money-maker. People want to go to shaolin to study, but they won't learn the good stuff, especially as a foreigner. It's all modern wushu. Oh, they train brutally hard, they can really be outstanding athletes, but still not a fighting method.

It's my understanding that the early days of modern wushu, people could still fight. Many of them had a background in the old stuff so they could still use it. With later generations, it became more and more removed from fighting, with heavier emphasis on showmanship, and any remnants of fighting ability was gone.

Some of the current people are trying to move modern wushu back in the direction of having some combat viability, but I don't know what kind of success they are having. I believe Jet Li is among them. But yeah, he is a modern wushu guy. I believe he performed for President Nixon at the whitehouse when he was quite young.

 

[Flying Crane]

There are a couple of kung fu movies that show this where, the government didn't want the citizens to have the ability to physically fight back. The big truth about being able to fight and defend yourself is that those who can fight and defend themselves rarely back down. When a fighter backs down, it's literally because he doesn't want to fight, and not because he can't, or doesn't know how to fight.

I don't know a whole lot about that era, but I believe there was this big thing of, out with the old, in with the new. I think there was this rejection of all that was old and traditional, even if there was no real threat from it. People needed to serve the new goals of the nation,and the old ways were a hinderance. So the Maoist government used extreme prejudice to enforce their mandates. It was a brutal time and many people starved to death and disappeared for various transgressions, including practice of traditional martial arts.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Any chance you could share the names of those movies? I would be really interested in watching some of them.

I'll try to make a list. I'm hoping there is one already out on the internet.

 

[FriedRice]

It's my understanding that the early days of modern wushu, people could still fight. Many of them had a background in the old stuff so they could still use it. With later generations, it became more and more removed from fighting, with heavier emphasis on showmanship, and any remnants of fighting ability was gone.

While I find the historical aspect of the Chinese Cultural Revolution (CCR), fascinating, I still must argue the point that I don't feel such combative aspect of Kung-Fu has been that much lost because it was transformed into the State sponsored, and flowerized, Wushu.

I can understand that during the take-over of China by Mao, such abilities to revolt would be suppressed...especially the firearms and most edged and blunt weapons. But as the Commies moves closer to full control, they would lessen the restrictions. Especially around when they became Capitalists and started raking in the $$$$$$$. And my argument is that, Chinese Sanda/Kickboxers who trains & competes in K-1, etc. are way more dangerous than those who trains real Kung-Fu but never fought in competitions. And Chinese fighters have been doing this for very long time now since the CCR. Because the Communists and especially Asians, are big on National Pride, especially when it comes to the Martial Arts. That's why you always see National Arts, pitted against one another....Muay Thai vs. Kung-Fu vs. Karate vs. TKD, etc. And MMA has also been in China for a while, and that's the highest level of fighting in toughening someone up to kill or be killed.

Now I appreciate being educated on the history of Wushu. My only experience with Wu-Shu is sparring vs. these Wu-Shu cats, and they are legit with their fighting (not necessarily the ones in this video, but the organization).

And, I would think that the edged weapons would be a much more serious threat than hand-to-hand Kung-Fu.... regardless of whether they were restricted to Wu-Shu or full out, pre-CCR Kung-Fu....because they're still training to get agile and powerful with the swords, etc. to cut, chop, decapitate.....

 

[Flying Crane]

I don't believe traditional wushu was ever seen as an actual threat by the communists. Rather, they wanted the nation to conform to their new goals which excluded many traditional cultural artifacts in favor of the new ideals, which included modern wushu. In essence they were laying down the new rules, and don't you dare disobey.

Think what you want about the sanda and whatnot. My purpose really was to give you some perspective on what it is that you may be seeing, when you see Chinese forms, so you understand that there really is a difference, even if you might not know enough about what you are lookin at to be able to identify one from the other yourself. At least you know that the difference exists, and they are fundamentally opposite in their design and purpose.

 

[JowGaWolf]

While I find the historical aspect of the Chinese Cultural Revolution (CCR), fascinating, I still must argue the point that I don't feel such combative aspect of Kung-Fu has been that much lost because it was transformed into the State sponsored, and flowerized, Wushu.

I can understand that during the take-over of China by Mao, such abilities to revolt would be suppressed...especially the firearms and most edged and blunt weapons. But as the Commies moves closer to full control, they would lessen the restrictions. Especially around when they became Capitalists and started raking in the $$$$$$$. And my argument is that, Chinese Sanda/Kickboxers who trains & competes in K-1, etc. are way more dangerous than those who trains real Kung-Fu but never fought in competitions. And Chinese fighters have been doing this for very long time now since the CCR. Because the Communists and especially Asians, are big on National Pride, especially when it comes to the Martial Arts. That's why you always see National Arts, pitted against one another....Muay Thai vs. Kung-Fu vs. Karate vs. TKD, etc. And MMA has also been in China for a while, and that's the highest level of fighting in toughening someone up to kill or be killed.

Now I appreciate being educated on the history of Wushu. My only experience with Wu-Shu is sparring vs. these Wu-Shu cats, and they are legit with their fighting (not necessarily the ones in this video, but the organization).

And, I would think that the edged weapons would be a much more serious threat than hand-to-hand Kung-Fu.... regardless of whether they were restricted to Wu-Shu or full out, pre-CCR Kung-Fu....because they're still training to get agile and powerful with the swords, etc. to cut, chop, decapitate.....

If my memory is correct Dennis Brown used Shaolin Kung Fu to win fights and actually was using that before he got into Wu Shu

Here's a quote from him about WuShu
"For a traditionalist, Brown was very open-minded about wushu. "I looked at it as kung fu - as we define it, is a fighting art. It's self defense. Wushu that we were learning, the competition teams, they were performing teams. It was a performance group. And I didn't see where that conflicted with what we did because it came from what we did - it was a performance of our kung fu - anymore than I would hate looking at Chinese opera, the Monkey King or something, and say, 'I don't want to look at that stuff.' It's dance, but it has its root in kung fu. So why can't I study if I'm a kung fu stylist and also want to learn wushu, the beautiful performing arts? They never claimed that they were great fighters or anything. They were performers. And so in a performance competition, they would probably win, but not always. If there was traditional type of competition, they would win."
Source:Welcome to KungFuMagazine

It's not bashing Wushu to refer to them as performance arts kung fu. They already know that, but people outside of China often confuse them with the fighting kung fu.
This is a Wushu Class

This is a what a fighting kung fu class looks like

There is a huge difference. Wu Shu will always look like the WuShu video. Traditional Kung Fu and Kung Fu used for fighting will always look like the second one "boring and non flashy"

 

[Flying Crane]

If my memory is correct Dennis Brown used Shaolin Kung Fu to win fights and actually was using that before he got into Wu Shu

Here's a quote from him about WuShu
"For a traditionalist, Brown was very open-minded about wushu. "I looked at it as kung fu - as we define it, is a fighting art. It's self defense. Wushu that we were learning, the competition teams, they were performing teams. It was a performance group. And I didn't see where that conflicted with what we did because it came from what we did - it was a performance of our kung fu - anymore than I would hate looking at Chinese opera, the Monkey King or something, and say, 'I don't want to look at that stuff.' It's dance, but it has its root in kung fu. So why can't I study if I'm a kung fu stylist and also want to learn wushu, the beautiful performing arts? They never claimed that they were great fighters or anything. They were performers. And so in a performance competition, they would probably win, but not always. If there was traditional type of competition, they would win."
Source:Welcome to KungFuMagazine

It's not bashing Wushu to refer to them as performance arts kung fu. They already know that, but people outside of China often confuse them with the fighting kung fu.
This is a Wushu Class

This is a what a fighting kung fu class looks like

There is a huge difference. Wu Shu will always look like the WuShu video. Traditional Kung Fu and Kung Fu used for fighting will always look like the second one "boring and non flashy"

I reached a point where I just can't even watch the modern wushu stuff anymore. I've just seen too much of it, been to too many tournaments where that was the main thing.

I can't stand to watch movies where the fight choreography is based on modern wushu. Watching Yoda have his light saber battle with Christopher Lee in that Star Wars movie was just agony. Yoda jumping around like a wushu athlete, I hated that. And Darth Maul in the first prequel, that was all inspired by modern wushu. They were all awful movies, but the wushu bits just drove a spike thru my heart. The kill bill movies, hate that stuff. Ugh.

 

[drop bear]

I reached a point where I just can't even watch the modern wushu stuff anymore. I've just seen too much of it, been to too many tournaments where that was the main thing.

I can't stand to watch movies where the fight choreography is based on modern wushu. Watching Yoda have his light saber battle with Christopher Lee in that Star Wars movie was just agony. Yoda jumping around like a wushu athlete, I hated that. And Darth Maul in the first prequel, that was all inspired by modern wushu. They were all awful movies, but the wushu bits just drove a spike thru my heart. The kill bill movies, hate that stuff. Ugh.

I am a bit like that with keysi. Just think it does not translate well on to screen.

 

[FriedRice]

If my memory is correct Dennis Brown used Shaolin Kung Fu to win fights and actually was using that before he got into Wu Shu

Here's a quote from him about WuShu
"For a traditionalist, Brown was very open-minded about wushu. "I looked at it as kung fu - as we define it, is a fighting art. It's self defense. Wushu that we were learning, the competition teams, they were performing teams. It was a performance group. And I didn't see where that conflicted with what we did because it came from what we did - it was a performance of our kung fu - anymore than I would hate looking at Chinese opera, the Monkey King or something, and say, 'I don't want to look at that stuff.' It's dance, but it has its root in kung fu. So why can't I study if I'm a kung fu stylist and also want to learn wushu, the beautiful performing arts? They never claimed that they were great fighters or anything. They were performers. And so in a performance competition, they would probably win, but not always. If there was traditional type of competition, they would win."
Source:Welcome to KungFuMagazine

It's not bashing Wushu to refer to them as performance arts kung fu. They already know that, but people outside of China often confuse them with the fighting kung fu.
This is a Wushu Class

This is a what a fighting kung fu class looks like

There is a huge difference. Wu Shu will always look like the WuShu video. Traditional Kung Fu and Kung Fu used for fighting will always look like the second one "boring and non flashy"

You know, as much as I bash the Kung-Fu flowery forms, I really like watching it and secretly wish that I can do them like that....especially when I'm training with my knives.

Thanks for another informative post, esp. on Dennis Brown.