Some heavy bag training.

[drop bear]

Unfortunately, I don't know of any such video. But a good test would be for you to try the MT kick out yourself. Get decently used to it and see for yourself. Like if you want to teach me the Kempo style, I'd try it.

Speaking for myself, I started with TKD for many years and can kick fast and hard. My first MT class, I had to learn this MT, step 45deg, roundhouse. I was resistant to it because I felt that my TKD ways were superior and I kicked harder than many from this 15+ student class and equal to some of the bigger guys with 1+ year MT training....using my TKD style RH. But as I became receptive to the MT style RH, I realized how much more power my kicks became after only a short period of time. Dudes at KF schools that I went to to spar were impressed by the power also. Compared to other MT fighters, my kicks are decent but nothing special.

It is hard to judge i have seen kyukashin guys kick pretty hard. And they snap.

For me if i am fighting a better boxer i tend to snap kick. So i can gtfo as quick as possible.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Yea, many other MA's thinks that the arm swinging leaves you open....but the shoulder is up and the step at 45 deg, and upper torso bending, is apart of the defense to dodge a cross.
And the landed kick is meant to cause maximum damage and shock, to give you that split second to the swinging arm back up.

This is how it's done in Muay Thai and MMA, pretty much 99% of the time...with the rear leg roundhouse being their bread & butter.....and who fights more, Muay Thai fighters with 200-400 fights in their careers in Thailand or other TMA fighters?

Proof that it leaves the face open see around 8:50 mark had he moved in forward with the punch, it would have landed solid.

 

[FriedRice]

It does leave your face open. It's a high risk move when used against people who aren't afraid to move forward when a person is kicking. As long as you can kick it fast enough and at long distance then you'll be o.k. If someone get inside the range then they'll be able hit your face depending on how far back you are leaning.

The weakest point of that kick is at the center of it's rotation so the closer a person can get to the center the more danger the kicker will be in. From experienced I moved in on a TKD round house and his thigh hit my sides and at that same time I gave him a stiff jab (not hard) right under his jaw. Had I put full force into he probably would have been done. There's really no way to give with a punch that comes lands underneath the jaw. You can lightly tap yourself under the jaw with your fist and you'll get a good idea of how uncomfortable it is.
The other risk from that kick is the risk for a leg sweep which is easier to do than trying to hit the face. The punch is good but the leg sweep is easier. I would be more worried about someone moving in and sweeping.

There's no perfect technique, everything has counters, defense against them, etc.... The step 45deg and upper torso bend down and diagonally is the defense against the counter-punch. The chin is down and tucked into the chest and almost covered and behind the shoulder of the arm swinging down. There shouldn't be a clean hit there.

And you can get swept with pretty much, any other style of MA's roundhouse kick. Muay Thai has many of such sweeps....one is called "cut kicks":

 

[FriedRice]

Move your upper body sideways a bit.

Yes....his Karate way of kicking this RH leaves his whole face right in front of the guy he just kicked.....yes, his hands are taught to be up to block the counter punch or return punch..... but at the cost of a weaker kick.

The Muay Thai RH, addresses this problem by bending the upper body sideways to dodge the punch along with the step 45deg....and going all in on the power to cause max damage....rather than mild damage, allowing the guy to recover faster and punch you as a return.

But there's also the fast RH or switch-step RH.....where there's no step, and the face stays right in front like Karate....but it's not that easy to just punch the kicker real quick when his baseball bat leg is flying in to wreck you. And the leg is longer than the arm.

I know that you know all this, because you train MMA...I'm just putting it out there

 

[JowGaWolf]

There's no perfect technique, everything has counters, defense against them, etc.... The step 45deg and upper torso bend down and diagonally is the defense against the counter-punch. The chin is down and tucked into the chest and almost covered and behind the shoulder of the arm swinging down. There shouldn't be a clean hit there.

And you can get swept with pretty much, any other style of MA's roundhouse kick. Muay Thai has many of such sweeps....one is called "cut kicks":

lol the demo guy got hurt from the first sweep. The worst part about a sweep is hitting the ground. You can see on his face that it didn't feel good. Then the second sweep instruction took a different approach, the "don't sweep me for real approach"

 

[FriedRice]

Proof that it leaves the face open see around 8:50 mark had he moved in forward with the punch, it would have landed solid.

Yea, like I said, there's no perfect technique. There are counters to everything. Yi Long got whooped, but not as bad as I thought he would be nor hoped. He's a tough SOB, I admit...but interesting that you don't question his Shaolin Kung-Fu....because he looks just like any garden variety Kickboxer.....more so than Jason Delucia, who you jumped all over ....in his like, 10sec standing up in the UFC, before Gracie took him down and kept him there until his arm got popped. I mean, DeLucia was def. doing some kind of Kung-Fu stance....and no way was that TKD.

The Philly Shell looks dangerous as hell, but this is my best stance against dudes my level in Muay Thai. Look at James Tonney....hands almost always completely down.

There are risks and rewards to everything.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Man, I just told you...

This may be hard for you to accept, but your unsupported word is worth exactly nothing. And when the objective evidence directly contradicts you, your word is worth less than nothing.

that video was based on the TALENT of the fighter.

So you're basically saying that the professional fighter trained in Muay Thai sucked? I don't think I'd care to say that to his face. And I doubt you would either.

Making that TKD guy, kick the MT way......after some decent practice time, he'd be kicking harder than his TKD kick.

So you say, without any evidence at all to support your claim. That's because your claim is BS.
Some people will kick harder with the Muay Thai style kick. Some people will kick harder with the Tae Kwon Do style kick.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Unfortunately, I don't know of any such video. But a good test would be for you to try the MT kick out yourself. Get decently used to it and see for yourself. Like if you want to teach me the Kempo style, I'd try it.

I've actually done this. One of my instructors was a fan of the MT roundhouse, so he had us learn it. Personally I think it's stronger than my styles roundhouse, but we're also not known for our kicks. One of my fellow students came from TKD, however, and learned the MT roundhouse as well. When I would hold a bag for him before/after the change I did not notice feeling any more power from his kick, and it was something that at the time I was consciously looking for.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Yi Long got whooped, but not as bad as I thought he would be nor hoped. He's a tough SOB, I admit...but interesting that you don't question his Shaolin Kung-Fu....because he looks just like any garden variety Kickboxer.

It's not interesting. The fact that I don't go around posting Yi Long videos as an example of kung fu techniques in a fight should be a clear sign of what I think of Yi Long in the reference of Kung Fu. You have never heard me champion Yi Long for kung fu. You'll always see me post something about Cung Le, but not Yi Long. Just like I don't bring Jason Delucia out either. Jason Delucia is almost always brought into a discussion by someone who favors MMA or BJJ and it's usually in the reference of how kung fu doesn't work.

 

[FriedRice]

It's not interesting. The fact that I don't go around posting Yi Long videos as an example of kung fu techniques in a fight should be a clear sign of what I think of Yi Long in the reference of Kung Fu. You have never heard me champion Yi Long for kung fu. You'll always see me post something about Cung Le, but not Yi Long. Just like I don't bring Jason Delucia out either. Jason Delucia is almost always brought into a discussion by someone who favors MMA or BJJ and it's usually in the reference of how kung fu doesn't work.

Interesting. I personally think that Yi Long, Cung Le and DeLucia are all legit Kung-Fu and Kung-Fu certainly does work in MMA just like Karate does.

Like Sports BJJ, where there's a ton of techniques that are trained that doesn't work well or not at all in MMA. There are top 10 UFC contenders and even champions, who are still White Belts in BJJ because they hardly ever train with a gi in Sports BJJ b/c it's a waste of their time as a Fighter. So this is almost like, but not as bad, as the flowery form Kung-Fu guys who competes such flowery forms with no contact. Now it doesn't necessarily mean that these flowery KF guys can't fight, they could....just that they've also spent a ton of time memorizing and doing those flowery forms.....not completely for nothing, as they do help with certain aspects of fighting like cardio, agility, etc....just not the best time & energy spent, IMO, if MMA fighting was the main goal. And this is what Cung Le and Yi Long concentrate on, competition fighting....which disregards most to virtually all, flowery forms and get right to the fighting aspect....which then....the Kung-Fu guy now looks just like Muay Thai or Kickboxing. This is why Muay Thai dominates the standup training for MMA, it gets right to it.

 

[FriedRice]

This may be hard for you to accept, but your unsupported word is worth exactly nothing. And when the objective evidence directly contradicts you, your word is worth less than nothing.

No, I argued against your TV show evidence and already told you why they are flawed. Do you believe everything you see on TV?

So you're basically saying that the professional fighter trained in Muay Thai sucked? I don't think I'd care to say that to his face. And I doubt you would either.

Nice try. Try reading what I said again. I said the TKD RH kicker is more talented. Is this an impossibility?

So you say, without any evidence at all to support your claim. That's because your claim is BS.
Some people will kick harder with the Muay Thai style kick. Some people will kick harder with the Tae Kwon Do style kick.

Very good, now you're starting to understand. It's the Kicker and with the better kicking technique of Muay Thai, his RH kick would be stronger than this TKD technique.

 

[FriedRice]

I've actually done this. One of my instructors was a fan of the MT roundhouse, so he had us learn it. Personally I think it's stronger than my styles roundhouse, but we're also not known for our kicks. One of my fellow students came from TKD, however, and learned the MT roundhouse as well. When I would hold a bag for him before/after the change I did not notice feeling any more power from his kick, and it was something that at the time I was consciously looking for.

Now this kind of depends on how long he's been training the MT style. It did take me some time to get good at it, coming from TKD. Then, there's also a point where my kicks have reached the limit of it's power and where my style of TKD and MT has meshed and it's just a RH kick now where there's no real distinction....well maybe with the exception of the step 45deg, kick RH which is very indicative of being MT.

Like in TKD, most RH are chambered and then snap. This certainly doesn't generate the same power as an MT fighter's full swing through like a baseball bat. But TKD guys can certainly throw the same kick if they wanted only to land one hard kick rather than snap 10 of them in 1 flurry for points.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Interesting. I personally think that Yi Long, Cung Le and DeLucia are all legit Kung-Fu and Kung-Fu certainly does work in MMA just like Karate does.

Ironically if you want to see a lot of kung fu technique in action then you have to look at everyday people who are trying to use their kung fu system to fight with. The sample size is much larger so you are more likely to see someone who is good with using the application. In the professional world of fighting the sample size is smaller so it's more difficult to find fighting that screams Kung Fu.

Yi Long fights kickers and he understands kickers. When they kick sweep their leg. That's the game plan. Because of the type of fighters he's going against he's not going to need much kung fu beyond the basics punches, kicks, and sweeps. You'll often see him move inside of the range of a kick, taking advantage of the fact that a person can't retreat while on one leg, and a round house kick gets weaker the closer you get. Buakaw understood stood this and threw more knees than roundhouses. If he were to fight in an MMA match that same plan wouldn't work and it would give him more opportunities to use different techniques especially since he would be able to use open hand gloves.

flowery form Kung-Fu guys.

Kung Fu can be separated into 2 camps. There's a group that does the flowery stuff and then there's a group that doesn't. Wushu often gets lumped into the flowery group

Then you have other systems that are less exciting compared to wushu. Each move in the form has a purpose and function and movement isn't wasted on doing movement without purpose.

Wushu gets the big spot light when Kung Fu is mention so many people just assume that most Kung Fu is Flowery. The majority of the kung fu systems out there aren't flowery but they also aren't as popular because no one looks cool doing it lol.

 

[drop bear]

Now this kind of depends on how long he's been training the MT style. It did take me some time to get good at it, coming from TKD. Then, there's also a point where my kicks have reached the limit of it's power and where my style of TKD and MT has meshed and it's just a RH kick now where there's no real distinction....well maybe with the exception of the step 45deg, kick RH which is very indicative of being MT.

Like in TKD, most RH are chambered and then snap. This certainly doesn't generate the same power as an MT fighter's full swing through like a baseball bat. But TKD guys can certainly throw the same kick if they wanted only to land one hard kick rather than snap 10 of them in 1 flurry for points.

It is awkward comparing those two kicks. The snap has more speed the Thai kick has more mass. Both are methods for developing hurting bombs.

Now more people kick badly snap style because more people do snap kick style martial arts so if you are comparing Barry's child minding service tkd kick with a fight schools muay Thai kick then there is an easy answer.

If you are comparing Andy hug. That dude gets some pep.

 

[FriedRice]

Kung Fu can be separated into 2 camps. There's a group that does the flowery stuff and then there's a group that doesn't. Wushu often gets lumped into the flowery group

Then you have other systems that are less exciting compared to wushu. Each move in the form has a purpose and function and movement isn't wasted on doing movement without purpose.

Wushu gets the big spot light when Kung Fu is mention so many people just assume that most Kung Fu is Flowery. The majority of the kung fu systems out there aren't flowery but they also aren't as popular because no one looks cool doing it lol.

This, I did not know. Thanks .

 

[Ironbear24]

This, I did not know. Thanks .

Chinese martial arts are very amazing andbcan be very practical but sadly it is possibly the most difficult to find, yet alone find a good sifu. So many hacks and phonies are out there that it really gives it a bad reputation.

 

[FriedRice]

Chinese martial arts are very amazing andbcan be very practical but sadly it is possibly the most difficult to find, yet alone find a good sifu. So many hacks and phonies are out there that it really gives it a bad reputation.

I think the main problem with Kung-Fu is too much forms and tradition. Like if someone with a solid TKD background, goes to Muay Thai, we're not going to make them learn the Wai Kru dance...I've never done it in my life. That's why it's rare to see Kung-Fu, transitioning to TKD and vice versa.

Maybe that's why MMA does so well...BJJ offers a quite different aspect of fighting but also Muay Thai doesn't make you completely retrain everything or add in a lot of traditions. Like I wanted to train some Shaolin Kung-Fu to look for techniques that I can use against Muay Thai....but damn, they made me do a ton of forms...which certainly were combat oriented....but if you want to question about the MT RH kick dropping one hand being risky....some of these Shaolin forms, I'm striking with by non striking arm (not just the hand), extended and away from my body.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Now this kind of depends on how long he's been training the MT style. It did take me some time to get good at it, coming from TKD.

At the time I left, he had been practicing it for ~2 years, while still going to his TKD dojo as well.

Then, there's also a point where my kicks have reached the limit of it's power and where my style of TKD and MT has meshed and it's just a RH kick now where there's no real distinction....well maybe with the exception of the step 45deg, kick RH which is very indicative of being MT.

Like in TKD, most RH are chambered and then snap. This certainly doesn't generate the same power as an MT fighter's full swing through like a baseball bat. But TKD guys can certainly throw the same kick if they wanted only to land one hard kick rather than snap 10 of them in 1 flurry for points.

I think the difference there was that he didn't go from the chamber straight to the roundhouse as a snap. He would get in the chamber, go on the ball of his foot, and pivot so that he could get his full bodyweight behind the kick. No idea if this is the 'traditional' TKD way since I never practiced it, but it's how he practiced.

 

[Ironbear24]

I think the main problem with Kung-Fu is too much forms and tradition. Like if someone with a solid TKD background, goes to Muay Thai, we're not going to make them learn the Wai Kru dance...I've never done it in my life. That's why it's rare to see Kung-Fu, transitioning to TKD and vice versa.

Maybe that's why MMA does so well...BJJ offers a quite different aspect of fighting but also Muay Thai doesn't make you completely retrain everything or add in a lot of traditions. Like I wanted to train some Shaolin Kung-Fu to look for techniques that I can use against Muay Thai....but damn, they made me do a ton of forms...which certainly were combat oriented....but if you want to question about the MT RH kick dropping one hand being risky....some of these Shaolin forms, I'm striking with by non striking arm (not just the hand), extended and away from my body.

Stick with it, it may seem akward for us since our fighting styles are more direct, meaning they primarily focus on fighting. Learning this will still expand your knowledge of martial arts in general and that is never a bad thing.

 

[Flying Crane]

This, I did not know. Thanks .

In the 1950s cultural revolution in China, traditional fighting methods were suppressed and outlawed and a new, modern approach was created by the government. This new approach was based on the old methods, but with one very important difference: it was not intended for fighting. Instead it was intended to be a national performance competition and sport method that was inspired by the old martial methods. This is where the flowery forms come into the picture, which were only intended as a floor routine and not as a tool for training real fighting methods. The application of the movements were ignored, and the movements themselves were altered in favor of aesthetics. They look pretty but the structure and technique was undermined so it is no longer a viable fighting method.

This is known as "Modern Wushu". These are what you see in the big tournaments with lots of fancy and flowery forms with leaps and jumps and acrobatics. Some of these people are outstanding athletes, but they do not train in a real fighting method.

The forms found in the older, traditional fighting methods are not flowery like this, as they are meant to be a functional training tool. Unfortunately many people do not understand the difference. Some sifu teach the modern wushu forms and let their students believe they are learning traditional fighting methods. That is a shame and possibly a fraud it done deliberately and knowingly. Some people just don't even know what it is that they have been taught, and believe it is one thing when in reality it is the other. Some people believe the modern forms are viable fighting methods, not knowing they were never even intended to be.