Some grappling advice please.

[drop bear]

Left shin over the knife arm, while maintaining control of the wrist with your left arm, AND an underhook to maintain control of the left side of his body? Then you start headbutting the guy or biting his face?

That requires less movement than slipping into mount or side mount and simply breaking the arm?

I'm going to need a visual of that one. That sounds crazy (in a bad-*** sort of way).

If you had a shin an a left arm on that knife arm you could pin the arm and then goose neck the knife out.

 

[drop bear]

Hey Hanzou, yes I am aware of the starting position but thanks for posting the photo again for everyone. I looked at the photo a bunch and then went out and worked the exact position on the Submission Master grappling dummy with a training knife. (a very cool gift from a student) I haven't had a chance to work it in any of my private lessons or group classes due to what we have been covering lately but fortunately I have been grappling with weapons for like forever. I have been close to this position in training before. (minus being stretched out) In regards to going to the mount we also have to take into effect the up, over and down distance of the opponent's belly. That adds some length to going to the mount. Also if you go to the mount, you would with no resistance from your opponent just slide into it. While with resistance you could only do the knee driven method. (imagine doing the knee driven method while concentrating on the knife. (yikes) Hip switch to the mount would obviously be out of the question because of turning your back on the knife as well as totally weakening your grip while doing it. (definitely not doing that) If you meet no resistance and just slide to the mount as you are doing it your grip is going to be slightly weakened as well due to length and angle. (unless you have really long arms and or a huge size disparity) Coming up the same side by achieving right side control with an underhook with your right hand and moving up his body on the left side you should not suffer any loss of grip on the knife bearing hand. Your grip strength and thumb angle, position of your arm, etc. is going to be very important until you stabilize it via your shin, etc.

When looking at this particular position I see a positional 1, 2, 3 order of:

1. Stay on the same side and work your way up while utilizing an underhook and eventually placing your shin on the opponents knife bearing arm and head butting and or biting him until unconscious and then taking the knife.

2. Go to knee on Stomach and while popping up to knee on stomach while also placing your left leg/shin on opponents knife bearing arm simultaneously. Then head butt, bite, etc. unconsciousness for him and taking the knife.

3. If meeting no resistance then possibly go to the mount and once achieving it both hands could have to address the knife bearing hand and you could go for the straight armbar from the video you posted. (from the munt) I would probably though be more inclined instead to place my left shin over the knife bearing arm while keeping my hand there for control as well in a modified mount. (walking the body) Then head butts, bitting, and the right arm elbow until they are unconscious and then taking the knife.

What I do not see myself doing is transitioning to the opposite side. Could it happen, sure. Would I purposely go their as a first option no! I could also see being half guarded and having to work from there but I wouldn't choose it. Of course everything that I do would also depend on what he was doing and that really could change everything!!! So never say never be flexible and adapt! Train with a training knife in this position, knee on stomach, guard, half guard, mount, back, crossbody/side control, etc, etc. Train against an opponent drawing a knife as well as you drawing a knife while training. Think outside the box and play with it and see what you come up with. Kudo's to K-man for experimenting and exploring! That is what good training is all about! Do not be afraid to explore, experiment, ask questions, fail, etc. Most importantly do not think you know it all because nobody does. I am totally open to anybody else's ideas and or opinion's and if someone comes up with some thing really good I am there and will steal it for my training!

One thing you will definitely like Hanzou is that BJJ gives you great tools for dealing with a knife on the ground provided you explore it in training!

Just some of my thoughts on the matter based on training experience grappling with knives and beating up on that dummy the last couple of day's.

If you have an underhook ha can put his forearm in your throat and you cant head butt.

 

[Blindside]

Underhooking the knifers left arm

Your biggest risk is that he hips/shrimps out. That k man was preventing an escape to standing with one hand and half a shoulder is fascinating as a full side control struggles to prevent that. I will give it a go. But knife guy should have walked straight out of that.

But if he re guards. I get that holding him down hand free. Because he is moving back in to attack. A hand free gives me gnp elbows and two on one control of that knife.

Even if I got half guard he is being trapped there.

I don't have to get a full key lock. I just have to get that knife close enough too stab him in the ear.

So he has to get a sub while dodging punches and controlling that knife. That is a lot of jobs for one person.

Knife guy if he did want to get clever with legs should be trying to get his hooks in with his opposite leg and breakdancing his way to a better position.

There is all of this funky leg swichy movements you can get from there.

I just want to point out that from guard the opportunity to use the feet or hands to free the weapon hand becomes available.

Edit: pertinent info starts at 3:40 or so.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

If you have an underhook ha can put his forearm in your throat and you cant head butt.

As a late game move this is a possibility if your opponent is slow and methodical and sloppy. However, if you the knife wielding person go early and treat your arm like an bent arm lock/Americana defense and go and grab your own arm you can bring it back to your core and then cut and of course work for better position. Early game and it would be a really good defensive move Drop Bear! For every movement though there will always be a counter or several or more.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

But not nearly the length required to go from the starting position to left shin over arm. Especially when you are already underhooking his left arm with your right arm.




I find your belief that it requires your opponent to be offering no resistance for you to take mount a little bizarre. Surely you've mounted someone under resistance. I'm sure you've mounted experienced grapplers who are fully resisting you. Why do you feel that this knife-wielding assailant, who very likely has limited to no grappling experience, would make it more difficult to achieve mounted position when you already control their upper body thanks to the underhook, your body weight, and your left arm pinning down the knife hand?



You're going for the head butting and biting because your hands are occupied. Why not go for the arm break first, which will make the weapon disarm easier, and allow you to free your hands?

Again, no offense, but I'm not seeing the efficiency in this method. If you can get your shin all the way up to the arm, why can't you get your right shin over his right hip on the exact same side as your under hook? Why are you depending on knocking this guy out with head butts and biting (both of which might not work, and can cause you to lose control of your holds) when you can simply mount him, control him completely, and take the knife out of the equation and free up your hands?



And I completely respect that experience. Don't ever doubt that. I simply think that in our efforts to try to apply self defense methods, or street tactics, we occasionally lose the efficiency/simplicity that our standard training already provides. Prime example being going for a throat grab or an eye gouge instead of an underhook.

One of the things we have to take into account here is that while moving one of our limbs is occupied. I cannot take it away from his knife bearing arm. I have to keep it at an angle that is good for me and bad for him. Coming up same side I do that. Heck even jumping to a knee on stomach with my shin on his arm I do it. When I try to go for the mount the angles change a tiny bit which will make it harder for me to keep a strong stable grip. Can it be done, sure. Is it dangerous for me, yes.

One thing to remember is that anything we do can be countered at some point. If you have never grappled with a knife then your going to need to put in time doing so to have a really informed opinion. Unarmed grappling while very similar is a little different than armed grappling. Things you can do with impunity unarmed will get you stabbed repeated if your opponent has a knife or pulls a knife. While BJJ movement is a great base for unarmed grappling unless you are grappling armed regularly it doesn't prepare you fully. If you ever want to come to Vegas I can show you quite a bit more on not only grappling against a knife but where and when you can pull your knife and or while grappling and also of course how to retain your tools.

In the meantime why don't you get a partner after class and use a training knife while grappling. Go no-gi with the knife in the waistband and treat it that it is a folding knife that you are unaware of and when he pulls it out then you better start addressing it. Anytime it touches your body you are being cut and if he presses stabbed. This is a good reality check on the danger your will face.

 

[drop bear]

We were having a play with this. Scooting around to a two on one grab at the wrist works pretty well

 

[Blindside]

We played with this tonight, best result was left shin over weapon forearm, right arm hooked behind opponent's head/neck,, left hand punching and elbowing to the face.

Other option was bringing the right knee under the arm holding the knife, then transitioning to a head and arm with an armbar, sort of like this:

 

[Instructor]

How securely were you able to pin the weapon arm with the shin. Could uke rotate the wrist and cut your leg with the knife? My primary concern is your achilles tendon.

 

[drop bear]

How securely were you able to pin the weapon arm with the shin. Could uke rotate the wrist and cut your leg with the knife? My primary concern is your achilles tendon.

We did it and got a bit you get the side though not the back.

 

[Instructor]

You might try replacing the knife with a washable magic marker. It might give you some idea of how much the blade would contact if at all.

 

[drop bear]

You might try replacing the knife with a washable magic marker. It might give you some idea of how much the blade would contact if at all.

In that scenario you can tell. It takes a bit of time to get the knife around and you don't get much pressure because you just have the wrist. And you still have a hand to fight for that knife if you want.

I still think the two on one grab works a bit better. But in a pinch pinning with the shin will do the job.

 

[Blindside]

In that scenario you can tell. It takes a bit of time to get the knife around and you don't get much pressure because you just have the wrist. And you still have a hand to fight for that knife if you want.

I still think the two on one grab works a bit better. But in a pinch pinning with the shin will do the job.

With both hands occupied by the weapon, how did you control the rest of the body or was it a transition to a standup and escape?

 

[drop bear]

With both hands occupied by the weapon, how did you control the rest of the body or was it a transition to a standup and escape?

Knife guy cant do all that much with the arm pinned. I stood up and just dragged the am up with me,kick the guys head off.

But you could knee neck ride or escape. You get a lot of options.

 

[Instructor]

Grappling is in many ways about asset management. Most of us have two hands, two elbows, two arms, two legs, two knees, two feet, one torso, and one head (amongst other things). Uke has all of these things, and a knife....
Maybe BJJ has a different view but to a Hapkidoin, rolling about on the ground with a knife wielding assailant is pure madness. I still think a quick nasty strike with a free hand, head, or knee while maintaining control of the weapon and getting off the ground is the way to go.
BJJ prefers the ground because that's it's element but in this case, it's a mistake.

 

[Blindside]

Grappling is in many ways about asset management. Most of us have two hands, two elbows, two arms, two legs, two knees, two feet, one torso, and one head (amongst other things). Uke has all of these things, and a knife....
Maybe BJJ has a different view but to a Hapkidoin, rolling about on the ground with a knife wielding assailant is pure madness. I still think a quick nasty strike with a free hand, head, or knee while maintaining control of the weapon and getting off the ground is the way to go.
BJJ prefers the ground because that's it's element but in this case, it's a mistake.

I don't disagree, if I can stand up and maintain a good control that would be great but sometimes I can't. Drop Bear's suggestion was a transition to standing, so I don't see where you are getting this BJJ vs Hapkido take on the post.

 

[drop bear]

Grappling is in many ways about asset management. Most of us have two hands, two elbows, two arms, two legs, two knees, two feet, one torso, and one head (amongst other things). Uke has all of these things, and a knife....
Maybe BJJ has a different view but to a Hapkidoin, rolling about on the ground with a knife wielding assailant is pure madness. I still think a quick nasty strike with a free hand, head, or knee while maintaining control of the weapon and getting off the ground is the way to go.
BJJ prefers the ground because that's it's element but in this case, it's a mistake.

You can secure more limbs because you can pin with your legs and gravity. They are less mobile. Your hits have more effect and you can run away a bit easier.

We need to take into account that you are not really grabbing knives off people standing up very easily either.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Okay, I wasn't able to get video, but I finally got a chance to experiment with some training partners last night.

General consensus was that the best solution was that proposed by my friend Derek, as follows:

First priority is to neutralize the weapon. Not the arm - in that position the bottom guy is about one second from reaching over with his far arm, switching the knife to his left hand and going to town.

Switch your right hand from the throat to a far-side underhook, with enough weight on your opponent's body to keep him from turning towards you and reaching for the knife with the free hand. (As others have noted, this also stops him from taking your back.) You'll need mobility to move up towards your opponent's head, so get off your knees and onto the balls of your feet. As you move up, take your outside foot and stomp on your opponent's knife hand. It's a street self-defense situation, so you're wearing shoes, right? Keep his wrist pinned to the floor with your left hand, his body flattened out with your right underhook, and just stomp on his pinned hand until his fingers are broken or he lets go of the knife. Then kick the knife away, move to your favorite version of side mount or knee mount, and beat the crap out of him or choke him out.

I was able to make my original ideas work(popping up to knee mount or using a two-on-one grab while pinning his body with my head), but both of those approaches had more moving parts and potential steps to mess something up before I got to a successful finish. Derek's idea was more direct and required less advanced grappling skill. I could make my ideas work because I'm a BJJ black belt. Derek's approach was something that a good white belt might be able to pull off.

 

[Instructor]

I don't disagree, if I can stand up and maintain a good control that would be great but sometimes I can't. Drop Bear's suggestion was a transition to standing, so I don't see where you are getting this BJJ vs Hapkido take on the post.

Oh Sorry! I posted before I had read down to the end of the thread. Agree with Drop Bear completely on a strategic dismount. Also did not mean to pit BJJ vs Hapkido into the argument, it has no place here. Only that I am a Hapkido guy and commenting on a BJJ thread.

 

[K-man]

Oh Sorry! I posted before I had read down to the end of the thread. Agree with Drop Bear completely on a strategic dismount. Also did not mean to pit BJJ vs Hapkido into the argument, it has no place here. Only that I am a Hapkido guy and commenting on a BJJ thread.

It's a BJJ thread because I was seeking BJJ input. Hapkido input is just as valued.

 

[K-man]

Okay, I wasn't able to get video, but I finally got a chance to experiment with some training partners last night.

General consensus was that the best solution was that proposed by my friend Derek, as follows:

First priority is to neutralize the weapon. Not the arm - in that position the bottom guy is about one second from reaching over with his far arm, switching the knife to his left hand and going to town.

Switch your right hand from the throat to a far-side underhook, with enough weight on your opponent's body to keep him from turning towards you and reaching for the knife with the free hand. (As others have noted, this also stops him from taking your back.) You'll need mobility to move up towards your opponent's head, so get off your knees and onto the balls of your feet. As you move up, take your outside foot and stomp on your opponent's knife hand. It's a street self-defense situation, so you're wearing shoes, right? Keep his wrist pinned to the floor with your left hand, his body flattened out with your right underhook, and just stomp on his pinned hand until his fingers are broken or he lets go of the knife. Then kick the knife away, move to your favorite version of side mount or knee mount, and beat the crap out of him or choke him out.

I was able to make my original ideas work(popping up to knee mount or using a two-on-one grab while pinning his body with my head), but both of those approaches had more moving parts and potential steps to mess something up before I got to a successful finish. Derek's idea was more direct and required less advanced grappling skill. I could make my ideas work because I'm a BJJ black belt. Derek's approach was something that a good white belt might be able to pull off.

Well, we had a good session with it last night with the whole class trying the scenario from both sides. There were a number of interesting outcomes the most obvious one being, you don't want to be in this situation!

From the perspective of the guy with the knife. Yes, I could get out from the control and roll into a mount changing the knife to the other hand along the way. Moral of the story, if the guy with the knife has reasonable grappling skill you don't want to be in that position. However, as Chris Parker pointed out, although the grab to the throat or reach for the eyes was not really effective it was enough of a threat to keep a guy with grappling experience from doing what he might have been able to do in hindsight.

I reckon I tried most of the suggestions offered here. Sometimes I got the knife, sometimes I got away. Just about every time I would have been badly cut. To me and to all the others I saw, there was only one clear cut solution to the scenario. I could easily maintain control of the arm and keep my opponent on his back. If he moved position to try to change knife hand or even roll into the mount I could get up without being cut. Stomping in the hand or any other attempt at kicking was not really an option. Best advice, get away while you can. If you can get a decent kick in, fine, but don't rely on it.

Trying to fight over the knife and get a lock was virtually impossible once the knife guy started to fight back. Most moves resulted in getting cut. Sure you can end up with the knife but there would be a lot of blood on the ground.

The take home for me in this one is, if you end up on the ground in a weak position, such as happened in this case, take any opportunity to get up and away where you may then have time to grab something like a chair as a weapon to even up the situation. Continuing to grapple on the ground is an ego thing. It may work out or it may not. It's not worth the risk.