Some grappling advice please.

[Hanzou]

Left shin over the knife arm, while maintaining control of the wrist with your left arm, AND an underhook to maintain control of the left side of his body? Then you start headbutting the guy or biting his face?

That requires less movement than slipping into mount or side mount and simply breaking the arm?

I'm going to need a visual of that one. That sounds crazy (in a bad-*** sort of way).

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Yes Hanzou,

Less movement with just a simple slide up the body while checking his knife wielding hand. Really limits his options.

 

[Blindside]

Catching you in guard would have worked against him.

I realize this is from a couple of pages back, but why is going to guard a bad thing for the guy with the knife?

 

[KydeX]

Even with my limited time in BJJ (about 6 months), I am pretty sure if I was the knife man on bottom, I could get out of that position without too much trouble. And keep the knife as well.

My experience from ground fighting bjj style has shown me that if you are about equal in skill level, it is very hard to put someone in an arm lock. I've had better luck with chokes, but that means giving up arm control. Which you obviously don't want. Ground fighting with someone more skilled than you and you will likely never get a lock on them.

 

[K-man]

I would not advocate letting him put you into the half guard or full guard nor popping up to knee on stomach. (to much potential space on knee on stomach) Unless you pop up to knee on stomach and place your leg/shin nearest to the knife bearing hand on his forearm on the knife bearing hand. (then it works) Nor would I advocate changing my body position to the opposite side in crossbody/side control. To much movement, potential space and during that movement I may lose control of his knife bearing hand or be swept/reversed and now fighting from my back. The easiest, most efficient method is to simply move up his body with off hand getting an underhook and maintain control of his knife bearing hand and then place your left shin also on his knife bearing arm. Then headbutt that guy unconscious and or bite his face off or neck/ear and then take the knife. Simple and efficient!

Tony mentioned above that if you did not have grappling experience of getting up and kicking them in the crotch before they get up. I wouldn't advocate that as you already have grabbed his knife hand. You have achieved one of the most difficult things to achieve already. You simply would not want to give that up. Could it work if you kick them in the crotch, sure as anything is possible but is it in your best interest, probably not! You may kick him in the crotch or face and just piss him off! You, voluntarily gave up control of that knife hand and you will probably have to "run the gauntlet" again to achieve some semblance of similar control. Your chances have been reduced a lot. You may not be able to run away as well he may be faster than you! If you have some semblance of control you try to achieve more control and dominate from there. If it does go somewhere else then you deal with that but otherwise dominate from where you are at in this position by moving up on the same side of his knife bearing arm.

Now in IRT we grapple with knives a lot and is an eye opener when you do not have the knife. I will utilize Brazilian Jiujitsu movement with some modifications but I also look to some Silat and southern Philippines grappling as well. Limb placement on arms or walking the body is essential. I learned this also in Budo Taijutsu from Doron Navon when grappling on the ground with weapons and empty hands.

Bottom line if they have the knife, you need to neutralize them quickly! If you do not, your probably dead or seriously maimed! You simply do not have a lot of time and or any need to do some thing complicated. Just keep it simple!

There's a lot here. I had the knife and a good hold. It is a real knife (blunt) and I still manage to cop two cuts. There was no compliance and we both desperately wanted that knife. To be honest I can't remember how it ended. I think I had my left shin over his arm and muscled the knife out of his hand. Probably, if the knife was sharp, would have cut my hand badly in the process. Again, I can't remember if I had the opportunity for striking in those later stages, I might have, but that wasn't really what I was trying to achieve. I think the main thing was, I had a good grip and come hell or high water I teach you don't let go and normally you don't even try to change your grip. The other thing was although I don't do a lot of rolling I can normally keep out of trouble and against most people get into position for an arm bar or choke. Of course I'm not talking here of highly trained grapplers.

In this particular scenario, and I can't remember how I got where I was, I may have lost a more favourable position. I normally end up with my knee on the chest when someone pulls me down and easily get an arm across the throat in a reasonable side control, but for some reason I ended up in the position pictured.

Interesting scenario and a really interesting discussion. Thank you one and all.

 

[K-man]

Getting free and running away is a perfectly valid defense. Keep us posted on your progress. Some video of the solution would be fantastic. I've learned that against a skilled grappler very little is as it seems.

I am sort of surprised by the reception my ideas had on this thread. If a person attacks you with a knife and it ends up in them seems like a reasonable exchange to me. Of course ideally nobody would get harmed but let's face it, this is a life and death knife fight on the ground, which is about a hairy of fight as it get's. It might come down to it being you or them.

I think the laws vary from country to country. In the US you seem to have more acceptance of the use of lethal force, particularly when it comes to firearms and the defence of property. In Australia it is totally different. Any use of a weapon causing death would involve a police investigation and a Coronial inquiry at the very least. If there was any suggestion you had gone beyond the definition of self defence into the area of retaliation then you may very well end up in jail, especially if there were no witnesses.

So in our situation justification might be that you needed to stab your attacker so you could safely leave the situation you were in, or if there were others attacking you, but either way you are going to have to justify your actions.

 

[Tgace]

What do you think happens in America when someone is killed?

 

[K-man]

What do you think happens in America when someone is killed?

Probably the same, however it appears from the press reports we get here that many times people are exonerated in situations that here would see them in jail.

Of course the other thing that colours our understanding are the comments, even on this forum, where people say that if 'XYZ' happened they wouldn't hesitate to kill the guy. As I said, you guys, in the main, have a greater acceptance of the use of lethal force.

 

[Hanzou]

Yes Hanzou,

Less movement with just a simple slide up the body while checking his knife wielding hand. Really limits his options.

Okay, but you're talking about sliding your left shin all the way up to his arm as opposed to sliding your right leg across his hips for the mount. based on Kman's starting position, wouldn't that require a larger range of movement?

Also what about the under hook? How is that accomplished with the shin and arm checking the knife wielding hand?

Like I said, I think I need a visual.

 

[Steve]

Can I just ask a simple question? Am I the only one who is most concerned about the guy on the bottom easily taking the back or reversing? Just looking again at that pic from K-man, he has zero base untill he controls the OTHER hand (bad guy's left arm). It just seems like the discussion keeps glossing past this talking about finishing and such.

Move number one for k-man, get the underhook with his right arm. I can't think of any movement more critical than to protect his back.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Okay, but you're talking about sliding your left shin all the way up to his arm as opposed to sliding your right leg across his hips for the mount. based on Kman's starting position, wouldn't that require a larger range of movement?

Also what about the under hook? How is that accomplished with the shin and arm checking the knife wielding hand?

Like I said, I think I need a visual.

No it really is a small range of movement and keeps focus on defending against the knife while not allowing a reversal or space that your opponent could use. I will try to get something visual for you eventually just busy right at this moment.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Can I just ask a simple question? Am I the only one who is most concerned about the guy on the bottom easily taking the back or reversing? Just looking again at that pic from K-man, he has zero base untill he controls the OTHER hand (bad guy's left arm). It just seems like the discussion keeps glossing past this talking about finishing and such.

Move number one for k-man, get the underhook with his right arm. I can't think of any movement more critical than to protect his back.

Abslutely that is a huge concern Steve!

 

[Hanzou]

Remember Brian, this is the starting position;


View attachment 19232

That left shin has to get all the way to the knife wielding arm.

 

[Hanzou]

Can I just ask a simple question? Am I the only one who is most concerned about the guy on the bottom easily taking the back or reversing? Just looking again at that pic from K-man, he has zero base untill he controls the OTHER hand (bad guy's left arm). It just seems like the discussion keeps glossing past this talking about finishing and such.

Move number one for k-man, get the underhook with his right arm. I can't think of any movement more critical than to protect his back.

I mentioned it in my first post. So no, you're not the only one.

 

[Steve]

Okay! I was worried.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Hey Hanzou, yes I am aware of the starting position but thanks for posting the photo again for everyone. I looked at the photo a bunch and then went out and worked the exact position on the Submission Master grappling dummy with a training knife. (a very cool gift from a student) I haven't had a chance to work it in any of my private lessons or group classes due to what we have been covering lately but fortunately I have been grappling with weapons for like forever. I have been close to this position in training before. (minus being stretched out) In regards to going to the mount we also have to take into effect the up, over and down distance of the opponent's belly. That adds some length to going to the mount. Also if you go to the mount, you would with no resistance from your opponent just slide into it. While with resistance you could only do the knee driven method. (imagine doing the knee driven method while concentrating on the knife. (yikes) Hip switch to the mount would obviously be out of the question because of turning your back on the knife as well as totally weakening your grip while doing it. (definitely not doing that) If you meet no resistance and just slide to the mount as you are doing it your grip is going to be slightly weakened as well due to length and angle. (unless you have really long arms and or a huge size disparity) Coming up the same side by achieving right side control with an underhook with your right hand and moving up his body on the left side you should not suffer any loss of grip on the knife bearing hand. Your grip strength and thumb angle, position of your arm, etc. is going to be very important until you stabilize it via your shin, etc.

When looking at this particular position I see a positional 1, 2, 3 order of:

1. Stay on the same side and work your way up while utilizing an underhook and eventually placing your shin on the opponents knife bearing arm and head butting and or biting him until unconscious and then taking the knife.

2. Go to knee on Stomach and while popping up to knee on stomach while also placing your left leg/shin on opponents knife bearing arm simultaneously. Then head butt, bite, etc. unconsciousness for him and taking the knife.

3. If meeting no resistance then possibly go to the mount and once achieving it both hands could have to address the knife bearing hand and you could go for the straight armbar from the video you posted. (from the munt) I would probably though be more inclined instead to place my left shin over the knife bearing arm while keeping my hand there for control as well in a modified mount. (walking the body) Then head butts, bitting, and the right arm elbow until they are unconscious and then taking the knife.

What I do not see myself doing is transitioning to the opposite side. Could it happen, sure. Would I purposely go their as a first option no! I could also see being half guarded and having to work from there but I wouldn't choose it. Of course everything that I do would also depend on what he was doing and that really could change everything!!! So never say never be flexible and adapt! Train with a training knife in this position, knee on stomach, guard, half guard, mount, back, crossbody/side control, etc, etc. Train against an opponent drawing a knife as well as you drawing a knife while training. Think outside the box and play with it and see what you come up with. Kudo's to K-man for experimenting and exploring! That is what good training is all about! Do not be afraid to explore, experiment, ask questions, fail, etc. Most importantly do not think you know it all because nobody does. I am totally open to anybody else's ideas and or opinion's and if someone comes up with some thing really good I am there and will steal it for my training!

One thing you will definitely like Hanzou is that BJJ gives you great tools for dealing with a knife on the ground provided you explore it in training!

Just some of my thoughts on the matter based on training experience grappling with knives and beating up on that dummy the last couple of day's.

 

[Hanzou]

Hey Hanzou, yes I am aware of the starting position but thanks for posting the photo again for everyone. I looked at the photo a bunch and then went out and worked the exact position on the Submission Master grappling dummy with a training knife. (a very cool gift from a student) I haven't had a chance to work it in any of my private lessons or group classes due to what we have been covering lately but fortunately I have been grappling with weapons for like forever. I have been close to this position in training before. (minus being stretched out) In regards to going to the mount we also have to take into effect the up, over and down distance of the opponent's belly. That adds some length to going to the mount.

But not nearly the length required to go from the starting position to left shin over arm. Especially when you are already underhooking his left arm with your right arm.

Also if you go to the mount, you would with no resistance from your opponent just slide into it. While with resistance you could only do the knee driven method. (imagine doing the knee driven method while concentrating on the knife. (yikes) Hip switch to the mount would obviously be out of the question because of turning your back on the knife as well as totally weakening your grip while doing it. (definitely not doing that) If you meet no resistance and just slide to the mount as you are doing it your grip is going to be slightly weakened as well due to length and angle. (unless you have really long arms and or a huge size disparity) Coming up the same side by achieving right side control with an underhook with your right hand and moving up his body on the left side you should not suffer any loss of grip on the knife bearing hand. Your grip strength and thumb angle, position of your arm, etc. is going to be very important until you stabilize it via your shin, etc.

I find your belief that it requires your opponent to be offering no resistance for you to take mount a little bizarre. Surely you've mounted someone under resistance. I'm sure you've mounted experienced grapplers who are fully resisting you. Why do you feel that this knife-wielding assailant, who very likely has limited to no grappling experience, would make it more difficult to achieve mounted position when you already control their upper body thanks to the underhook, your body weight, and your left arm pinning down the knife hand?

When looking at this particular position I see a positional 1, 2, 3 order of:

1. Stay on the same side and work your way up while utilizing an underhook and eventually placing your shin on the opponents knife bearing arm and head butting and or biting him until unconscious and then taking the knife.

2. Go to knee on Stomach and while popping up to knee on stomach while also placing your left leg/shin on opponents knife bearing arm simultaneously. Then head butt, bite, etc. unconsciousness for him and taking the knife.

3. If meeting no resistance then possibly go to the mount and once achieving it both hands could have to address the knife bearing hand and you could go for the straight armbar from the video you posted. (from the munt) I would probably though be more inclined instead to place my left shin over the knife bearing arm while keeping my hand there for control as well in a modified mount. (walking the body) Then head butts, bitting, and the right arm elbow until they are unconscious and then taking the knife.

You're going for the head butting and biting because your hands are occupied. Why not go for the arm break first, which will make the weapon disarm easier, and allow you to free your hands?

Again, no offense, but I'm not seeing the efficiency in this method. If you can get your shin all the way up to the arm, why can't you get your right shin over his right hip on the exact same side as your under hook? Why are you depending on knocking this guy out with head butts and biting (both of which might not work, and can cause you to lose control of your holds) when you can simply mount him, control him completely, and take the knife out of the equation and free up your hands?

Just some of my thoughts on the matter based on training experience grappling with knives and beating up on that dummy the last couple of day's.

And I completely respect that experience. Don't ever doubt that. I simply think that in our efforts to try to apply self defense methods, or street tactics, we occasionally lose the efficiency/simplicity that our standard training already provides. Prime example being going for a throat grab or an eye gouge instead of an underhook.

 

[drop bear]

I realize this is from a couple of pages back, but why is going to guard a bad thing for the guy with the knife?

Your biggest risk is that he hips/shrimps out. That k man was preventing an escape to standing with one hand and half a shoulder is fascinating as a full side control struggles to prevent that. I will give it a go. But knife guy should have walked straight out of that.

But if he re guards. I get that holding him down hand free. Because he is moving back in to attack. A hand free gives me gnp elbows and two on one control of that knife.

Even if I got half guard he is being trapped there.

I don't have to get a full key lock. I just have to get that knife close enough too stab him in the ear.

So he has to get a sub while dodging punches and controlling that knife. That is a lot of jobs for one person.

Knife guy if he did want to get clever with legs should be trying to get his hooks in with his opposite leg and breakdancing his way to a better position.

There is all of this funky leg swichy movements you can get from there.

 

[Hanzou]

Your biggest risk is that he hips/shrimps out. That k man was preventing an escape to standing with one hand and half a shoulder is fascinating as a full side control struggles to prevent that. I will give it a go. But knife guy should have walked straight out of that.

That's also a good point. If he knows what he's doing, he can escape a lot of stuff just with his hips and legs.

Along with controlling the upper body, controlling the hips should be considered as well if you're planning to neutralize him on the ground.

 

[drop bear]

That's also a good point. If he knows what he's doing, he can escape a lot of stuff just with his hips and legs.

Along with controlling the upper body, controlling the hips should be considered as well if you're planning to neutralize him on the ground.

You could underhook or ovehook with your right arm to get that control. But then you both might wind up trapped there.

Anyway this is randy doing a half guard escape.

Which if I was knive guy I would be going for.