RRouuselot
Master of Arts
Don Roley said:
Hell Don they aren't even put together for training of any sort let alone crosstraining. They are put together for mutual backside sniffing and then telling each other how good they are.
Sokeship Council, Grandmaster or NOT????
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Hell Don they aren't even put together for training of any sort let alone crosstraining. They are put together for mutual backside sniffing and then telling each other how good they are.
RRouuselot
Master of Arts
Seems to me I posted an nice article on a "Japanese" judoka named Kimura that kicked the crap out of old man Gracie.....but I guess that doesn't count.akja said:
BlackCatBonz
Master Black Belt
well i think that the term "sokeship" is ridiculous. fellowship is defined as a group of people who share common interests, goals, experiences, or views 2. companionship or friendly association 3. : membership in a group, or the sharing of characteristics with others 4. a sharing of common interests, goals, experiences, or views
so does sokeship refer to a group of soke's that do all of the above......
the definition of the word soke, as don stated, is for an inheiritor of a system. to have a group of people all calling themselves soke makes about as much sense as these people standing around calling themselves ham sandwiches. so while this group is standing around patting themselves on the back......the people of the culture they are trying to emulate stand around with their hands covering their mouths laughing. as serious and important as they want to be, they are still the inheiritors of nothing.
anyone want a sandwich?
so does sokeship refer to a group of soke's that do all of the above......
the definition of the word soke, as don stated, is for an inheiritor of a system. to have a group of people all calling themselves soke makes about as much sense as these people standing around calling themselves ham sandwiches. so while this group is standing around patting themselves on the back......the people of the culture they are trying to emulate stand around with their hands covering their mouths laughing. as serious and important as they want to be, they are still the inheiritors of nothing.
anyone want a sandwich?
RRouuselot
Master of Arts
BlackCatBonz said:
The term Soke is something that is rather serious in asian countries (actually it is used in Japan only).
Some immature people think if you train for so many years you are entitled to use the rank Soke, or if you create your own style you can use it actually those dont qualify you. Its funny . living in the land where the word Soke comes from I hardly ever see the title Soke used by MA people. In Japan the term is not passed around like a blunt at a Reggae Splash as it is in the west. It carries a more serious meaning and responsibility.
When you over use something it loses its meaning ..and for that reason western Soke are a friggin joke to me.
Sort of like Count Dante deciding he was a count.RRouuselot said:
In fact, soke isn't limited to martial arts, if I'm not mistaken. One can be the soke of other types of arts.
BlackCatBonz
Master Black Belt
as long as you're talking about something japanesearnisador said:
I would venture to say that your "referance article" is like MOST of your referance articles. PURE CRAP!RRouuselot said:Seems to me I posted an nice article on a "Japanese" judoka named Kimura that kicked the crap out of old man Gracie.....but I guess that doesn't count.
It obviously was not written by one of the fighters. Helio does not admit or deny a loss, but he was definately the most active champion freestyle fighter of his time.
Either way it does not matter. The fight was SUBMISSION WRESTLING. Kimura used SOME JUDO. But the rules did not reflect Judo or Ju Jitsu.
Try reading a fact about the size differance. A loss in that case would not prove much.
http://www.gracieacademy.com/generations/helio.shtml
Helio eventually fought 17 fights including matches against the world wrestling champion, Wladek Zbyszko. and a qualifying fight against the #2 jiu-jitsu fighter in the world, Kato, who Helio choked unconscious in 6 minutes. This victory enabled him to enter the ring with the world champion, Masahiko Kimura, who outweighed Helio by over 80 pounds. Helio Gracie holds the record for the longest match in history for a battle against his former student, Waldemar Santana, which lasted an amazing 3 hours and 40 minutes!
I stated that.RRouuselot said:
RRouuselot said:
1) Yup they were inferior and the west was superior BEFORE the east accepted reality and began crosstraining.
2) NO. I was teaching for over a decade before joining Hanshi.
3) Sure I have. I've proved that the USA deserves to be HEAD of their own systems. Hell, theres probably more martial artists is America than there is in Japan.
Besides it's Japans and Okinawas fault anyway for all this mess they seem to be pissed off about. They could of prevented a whole lot of it if they would of never of been so quick to certify American servicemen to black belt in 7-9 months in the first place. :uhyeah:
They made their own bed and now they have to lie in it! :uhyeah:
TimoS
Master of Arts
akja said:I would venture to say that your "referance article" is like MOST of your referance articles. PURE CRAP!
You are of course entitled to your opinions, but the articles I've read that Robert has posted have been quite informative in my opinion. But hey, since you think they are crap, why don't you post something or better yet, show where the crap is in these articles
Don Roley said:
I didn't make any relation between any councils and crosstraining.
It seems that the issue is terminology and rank recognition. Maybe America should go to Japan and TRY and regulate their baseball or go to Canada and TRY and regulate their football?
I don't think so. Nobody is ever going to get that kind of control. Not in this country and especially in another country.
Your fighting a losing battle.
I don't have his articles but why don't you post some thinks and I'll show you.TimoS said:
But we can start with the site he quoted for Lou Angel. That was not his site! 2nd hand info at best.
RRouuselot said:
1) OK, I'm sure my Japanese translation is inferior but even if it may be loosely. It describes my school.
2) You're doing it right now and everytime "talk about" us. You can ONLY trademark Ryu Te. Not Kempo, not Ju Jitsu, not Soke or ANY other words. :uhyeah:
Why don't you take us to court?
BESIDES YOU SHOULD START IN YOUR OWN CAMP AND CLEAR THAT CRAP UP WITH DILLMAN ONCE AND FOR ALL. :uhyeah:
Since my reputation points are being blown out the roof I OWE the post.
I don't have issues with Asians or any other people. WE ARE ALL ONE PEOPLE.
I have issues with "Asian Wannabes" living in the East trying to regulate the West.
Have a good day.
I don't have issues with Asians or any other people. WE ARE ALL ONE PEOPLE.
I have issues with "Asian Wannabes" living in the East trying to regulate the West.
Have a good day.
TimoS
Master of Arts
Moderator's Note:
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful and return to the original topic.
-Georgia Ketchmark
-MT Moderator-
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful and return to the original topic.
-Georgia Ketchmark
-MT Moderator-
I overlooked the obvious on that. Robert is a good martial historian. I was referring to how he quote many quotes about Hanshi but most of the quotes came from this site.http://www.kempokarate.com/home.cfm?CFID=257393&CFTOKEN=65445544TimoS said:You don't have his articles, but still you know they're crap ? Interesting
Ok, here's one. Now please show us where it is crap
Thats what I meant by second hand information.
I've been reading Roberts posts for a couple of years now and I am entitles to make an opinion on how he "often" quotes second hand information as "fact."
I don't know why you're rolling your eyes at me. He's been attacking my instructor.
Have a good day.
RRouuselot
Master of Arts
akja said:1)[font="] [/font]I would venture to say that your "referance article" is like MOST of your referance articles. PURE CRAP!
2)[font="] [/font]It obviously was not written by one of the fighters. Helio does not admit or deny a loss, but he was definately the most active champion freestyle fighter of his time.
3)[font="] [/font]Either way it does not matter. The fight was SUBMISSION WRESTLING. Kimura used SOME JUDO. But the rules did not reflect Judo or Ju Jitsu.
Try reading a fact about the size differance. A loss in that case would not prove much.
1)[font="] [/font]Looks like someone needs some time out. I have noticed when facts are presented to you and you have no defense you get nasty. Last time you said you suck your rudeness is getting old.
2)[font="] [/font]Actually he does. Here is an interview with Gracie.
Nishi: Could you tell me more details about the fight with the master Kimura?
Helio: Sure!
Helio: In the beginning I carefully tried to find a breakthrough, but I was in his control as soon as we stood close to each other. I had no time to even hold or grapple him. What I barely could do was to avoid his perfect throw in such a way that I relaxed the strength of all my body and moved my position a little bit at the moment when Kimura tried to throw me and as a result Kimura lost his balance. I was taken into the ground, and I got choked at first. It was difficult to breathe. I felt it working enough so I was wondering if I should tap as I promised Carlos.
Nishi: ?
Helio: Well, this is what I've never told anybody before. It seems I went unconscious while I was thinking about what to do [give up or not].
Naturally all the staff let alone Nishi were surprised to hear that, but what was more impressive than that was the shocked expression on Rorion's face.
Helio: If Kimura had continued to choke me, I would have died for sure. But since I didn't give up, Kimura let go of the choke and went into the next technique. Being released from the choke and the pain from the next technique revived me and I continued to fight. Kimura went to his grave without ever knowing the fact that I was finished. If possible, I wish I could have talked about the fight with him and let him know about it.
Nishi: I will tell his wife without fail.
Helio: Thank you. But then, Kimura was strong....... strong and a gentleman. He spoke in my ear in Japanese "good, good" while catching me with arm-lock. I don't understand Japanese at all, but strangely I was encouraged by his voice. It gave me power. (laugh) I was anxious about it, so I asked him later. He said, "I was admiring your heart."
Nishi: Kimura also talked about the fight with Mr. Helio in his book, and says that you had a strong heart.
Helio: Same to him. I think I got the authentic samurai spirit from him. I might have been Japanese in a previous life.
Nishi: By the way, what shall I do with my plan? I was prepared to do a challenge match here aiming at defeating a Gracie, but I touched the heart of the master Kimura in the talk with Mr. Helio. Now I've had one more teacher, Mr. Helio. Indeed, I must have been Brazilian in a previous life.
Helio: Thank you. If you continue to train, you will be the champion in a jiu-jitsu tournament in Brazil for sure. Age? No problem. I am 82 years old now, but martial arts are what you search for at the risk of your whole life.
3) What was that you said?........oh yeah NO EXCUSES!
Ultimate Fight in Brazil 1951
In July 1951 Kimura and two other fellow Japanese Judoka were asked to compete in Brazil. Kimura at age 34 was accompanied by a 240 pound (110kg) college champion Yamaguchi (6th degree black belt at the time) and Kado (5th degree black belt). It was to be a Judo/Jiu-jitsu fight.
Kado accepted a challenge from Helio Gracie -- Brazilian champion for 20 years. The loser was determined by tapping out due to a choke or armbar, or by being knocked out of commission. Ippon (clean powerful throws) or osaekomi (pinning) would have no effect on the results of competition. During Kado's fight he threw Gracie several times. Gracie, who was in excellent condition, demonstrated ukemi, breaking the throws with little injury. After 10 minutes of frustration, Kado decided to apply a choke. However, the masterful Gracie applied his own choke rendering Kado unconscious. With Kado's passing-out, Gracie was declared the winner and became a national hero of Brazil!
Weeks later, Gracie challenged the remaining two team members, either Yamaguchi or Kimura, to a match. Yamaguchi refused for fear of injury, however Kimura accepted the challenge. There were 20,000 spectators present. A coffin was brought in by Gracie's followers. Presumably, Kimura was to be killed by Gracie. On the day of the match, the President and Vice President of Brazil attended at ringside.
During the fight, Kimura threw Gracie repeatedly with ippon-seoinage (one arm shoulder throw), osotogari (major outer reap), and haraigoshi (sweeping hip/loin). He also included painful suffocating grappling techniques such as kuzure-kamishiho-gatame (modified upper four corner hold), kesa-gatame (scarf hold), sankaku-gatame (triangle hold). Gracie proved to be a formidable opponent refusing to surrender after 12 minutes of grueling fight. Kimura then took Gracie down with an osotogari followed by kuzure-kamishiho-gatame. During the battle that followed, Gracie bridged out of the pin and right into Kimura's ude-garami (chicken-wing arm lock). The arm bar must have been painful but when Gracie refused to surrender, Kimura applied yet more pressure, and as a result Gracie suffered a broken left elbow.
Even with the broken elbow, Gracie still refused to give up, so his corner "threw in the towel". Kimura was declared the winner by TKO. Although Kimura won the actual fight, it was acknowledged that Gracie had great fighting spirit and will. Kimura later applauded Gracie's tremendous will to win.
RRouuselot
Master of Arts
akja said:
1)Again you are incorrect. I used nothing from that website. My information came from my knowledge of Japanese and a book written by a friend of mine. As for being a good martial historian......not really. I just know how to read.
2)Feel free to prove me wrong anytime.
3)Really?
1)Robert, I achknowledged your martial art research for that article, re-read the post. I also said that was referring to Slamming Hanshi but you quoted "most" of you quotes from a kempokarate.com, which is "not from the source,and makes it second hand and makes my post true.RRouuselot said:
2)I would but everytime I ask you for the link you say something like look for it. Like the article you just posted. Wheres the link to the original??
3)Yes. You've attacked my instructor and for the most part indirectly called him a fake. You're mis-guided.
Have a good day.
