Sokeship Council, Grandmaster or NOT????

[RRouuselot]

Robert, I achknowledged your martial art research for that article. re-read the post. I also said that was referring to Slamming Hanshi but you quoted "most" of you quotes from a kempokarate.com, which is "not from the source,and makes it second hand and makes my post true.

Have a good day.

First off, I have never quoted anything from that website, and will not, and have no idea why you would think so.



Secondly, do you suffer from some reading disorder?

I said:

My information came from my knowledge of Japanese and a book written by a friend of mine.

My knowledge of Japanese is FIRST hand knowledge……….the information from my friends book was for the rank requirements in relation to title which differs from association to association.

 

[RRouuselot]

1)Robert, I achknowledged your martial art research for that article, re-read the post. I also said that was referring to Slamming Hanshi but you quoted "most" of you quotes from a kempokarate.com, which is "not from the source,and makes it second hand and makes my post true.

2)I would but everytime I ask you for the link you say something like look for it. Like the article you just posted. Wheres the link to the original??

3)Yes. You've attacked my instructor and for the most part indirectly called him a fake. You're mis-guided.
Have a good day.

1)see my above post

2)I said look for it one time. The other times I have posted a link. Why is a link needed? Do you think I made that up?

3)I think your teacher belongs to a BS organization……..my opinion is shared by more than a few people.

 

[James Kovacich]

I found this comment particularly interesting:


In addition to Hanshi Angel's almost 50 years of Martial Arts experience, the support of the WHFSC, and his unique abilities he provides a safe haven of support and recognition to the members of the National College of Martial Arts. When asked about what he felt qualified him to promote artists from styles other than his own, he retorted with the following question, "Do you think that after fifty years of martial arts experience that I am not able to recognize ability or the lack thereof?"

Kind of an arrogant statement. So by his logic I guess he could go to China and grade all the kung fu practitioners there as well, and then when he is done there shoot over to Okinawa and grade some of the people there as well….then maybe shoot over to Japan and grade some of the sword folks there like Otake sensei……..give me a break

A teenager can “recognize ability or a lack there of” ........

Heres one.

 

[James Kovacich]

1)[font=&quot] [/font]Is that considered “slim” in America now?

2)[font=&quot] [/font]In Okinawa 70 is not that old. My teacher is in his mid 70’s and moves like a 40 year old.

3)[font=&quot] [/font]Here is something not usually done in the west…..if you don’t train for a while in a Japanese dojo you move down to white belt and stay there until your instructor feels otherwise. Knowledge is useless without practice. If you don’t use it you lose it.


On the left you can see a guy that typifies the self proclaimed American “Grandmaster/Soke” major nut job named Peter Urban, who is he supposed to be Count Dracula or Houdini?

Heres another.

 

[RRouuselot]

Heres another.

Not sure why you feel the need to post this…..I never said I didn’t post those or have those opinions.

I have tolerated your comments like “YOU SUCK” and “your full of crap” for about as long as I care to. You rebuke Asians and their arts which I find ironic since you have as of yet trained in this “asian” country or any other. Therefore I find your comments without merit or fact. I know a few “Asians” that would stomp you like a little bug too. So until you educate yourself a bit more and actually bother to read and try and understand what is being said to you we don’t have much to talk about.

I find you comments not only uneducated but racist therefore you have just been stuck on my ignore list. Bye Bye

 

[Don Roley]

I didn't make any relation between any councils and crosstraining.

But you did disrupt the flow of conversation by bringing in that red herring. You would rather make this a thread about how Asian arts suck compared to American arts and talk about cross training than talk abotu how the members of soke boards are made up of people wanting to build up their resumes to impress others and not stand on their own abilities.

It seems that the issue is terminology and rank recognition. Maybe America should go to Japan and TRY and regulate their baseball or go to Canada and TRY and regulate their football?

I take the above statement to indicate that you think that by merely commenting on how silly soke boards are, we are interfering with you by trying to regulate what you can and can't do. That is not the case and I think that you are merely trying to shut your critics down. You are fighting a losing battle and public opinion is overwhelmingly against you. But your response is to lash out with comments about how we are somehow not worthy of holding an opinion on your orginization or your teacher.

This is why I look at soke boards and an image of Eric Cartman running around on his big wheel screaming "respect my authority" goes through my head. Soke boards are not friendship societies, they are attepts to build resumes and get people to bow to their mastership. Yet a good number of people who I am aware of who join these orginizations (including Hanshi's) are laughable. No combat experience, and yet they feel they are qualified to judge an entire arts combat effectiveness based on a video tape that lasts less than a typical yellow belt test.

They really are sad. They try to ape the terms and customs of Asian lands, and when they are found to not be up to the standards of those countries they turn 180 degrees and wrap themselves in an American flag. I could probably only feel pity for guys that are obviously wanting to be so much more than they are capable of if it were not for their sheer arrogence.

 

[RRouuselot]

I did a word search for the term “Soke” on the internet. Man there are a LOT of Soke-dokes these days.

I have posted this article before but here it goes yet again for the people that didn’t get or see it the first, second and third times I posted it.

This article was written by someone I met while he was in Japan and have seen this gentleman demo on several occasions. He is not someone you would want to go against.

I have taken the liberty of highlighting some parts of interest.

http://www.koryu.com/library/mskoss4.html
Transmission and Succession in the Classical Arts

by Meik Skoss

In the study of the kobudo and kobujutsu (Japanese classical martial arts and ways), one of the more intriguing questions is that of the transmission and succession of the different martial traditions via the soke or iemoto (headmaster or successor to a ryu). The modern martial ways, the "do" forms, generally do not follow the same patterns of technical or cultural transmission and it is easy for people from outside of Japan to misunderstand how the classical traditions were passed down through the generations. Even many modern Japanese are confused, notwithstanding their often professed belief in a common knowledge or practical sense supposedly universal to Japanese people (joshiki).

It is necessary to begin with an understanding of how succession to the headmastership occurred in koryu in the past. The most important methods were isshi soden (the complete transmission of a ryu's techniques and principles to one's heir by blood) and yuiju ichinin (teaching all the ryu's secrets to a single designated inheritor who was not a member of one's family). Passing on a school in this way, limiting access to the highest-level techniques and principles to one's successor and a few selected students, served to maintain both the ryu's prestige and protect the headmaster's authority. In most cases, there was a strict limit to the number of people (usually only one, seldom more than a handful) who might receive these special teachings and techniques. To prove that someone was a legitimate successor, he might receive a special license attesting to his accession, densho (scrolls which contain the most important technical principles and esoteric matters of the school), and, perhaps, a sword, spear, or other weapon of special significance to the ryu. Even if someone held the menkyo kaiden (the highest level of technical license) or its equivalent, without these emblems or symbols he would not be recognized as a legitimate successor. This is in part due to the fact that, over the years, there were many men who received menkyo and it was necessary to distinguish between fully qualified exponents of a ryu, its licensed teachers, and the legitimate heads of the tradition. This situation is further complicated by the occasional practice of separating the positions of headmaster and teacher in the event that the nominal head of the school does not, or cannot, practice the art. Several of the oldest martial traditions in Japan extant are now in the position where this has become necessary.

In principle, the densho were transmitted directly, from the headmaster to his disciples and students. It has been customary to list the lineage of teachers so that one can tell at a glance whether someone has studied within the main lines of a tradition or in a collateral branch (baikei). Furthermore, to authenticate a license of this sort it is the practice to seal it with the teacher's and/or headmaster's personal seal. In some traditions there may be one or more special seals unique to the ryu that must also be affixed for the license to be considered genuine. An example is the license that Morihei Ueshiba is said to have received in 1908 in the art of Yagyu Shingan-ryu jujutsu from Masakatsu Nakai. I have not examined this scroll personally, but the headmaster of the branch of the Yagyu Shingan-ryu that Ueshiba studied has been able to inspect it, and he has told me that the license lacks an authenticating seal over the teacher's name. It is difficult to determine what the absence of this seal means in regard to this particular densho, as it is very unlikely that it has been fabricated, but it nonetheless poses a problem to scholars and exponents of the kobudo in trying to determine what Ueshiba's technical antecedents actually were.

The authority of the headmaster rests upon his being able to correctly transmit the physical techniques and principles that are particular to a given school. In some cases, one or more ryu may become affiliated with or incorporated into the "main" school by historical circumstances. For example, the Shinto Muso-ryu is one of the oldest traditions of jojutsu (stick fighting). Many of its exponents (especially those studying the modified version of the art known as jodo) study only the stick. Those interested in the complete range of the tradition, however, can also study a number of affiliated arts: Uchida-ryu tanjojutsu (short stick art), Shinto-ryu kenjutsu (swordsmanship), Isshin-ryu kusarigamajutsu (chain-and-sickle art), Ikkaku-ryu juttejutsu (truncheon art) and Ittatsu-ryu hojojutsu (tying art). Students of the Yagyu Shinkage-ryu, a noted school of swordsmanship and strategy, can also study the Yagyu Seigo-ryu battojutsu (sword-drawing art) and the set of stick techniques known as "Jubei-no-jo." The Muhi Muteki-ryu, another school of jojutsu, includes the practice of Iga-ryuha Katsushin-ryu jujutsu in its curriculum. A separate license may or may not be awarded in some or all of these ancillary systems, depending on the normal practice of the main school.

Since the authority of the headmaster was absolute within a ryu, it was imperative that the chosen individual possesses the highest level of technical skills and personal character. Selection of a ryu's successor has, in theory, always been limited to this sort of outstanding candidate. Over the years, however, circumstances would change within a particular ryu and choosing somebody who met the ideals of personal ability and knowledge wasn't always possible. Sometimes the sons of the iemoto were not able to train due to limited physical ability, illness, injury or even death in battle. In other instances, there might not have any male children. In such situations, the lack of a suitable person was sometimes met by adopting an outstanding student as the heir (as was the case when Kiyoshi Nakakura was named Morihei Ueshiba's heir upon his marriage to Ueshiba's daughter, Matsuko; Nakakura was given the name Morihiro and adopted into the Ueshiba family until he and Matsuko were divorced some years later). Another solution might be where senior students and disciples would work together with the headmaster to preserve the ryu's technical vitality and social position. Even if one of these people was more skilled than the headmaster, the soke was always regarded as the ultimate figure of legitimacy and infringing on his authority was never countenanced. This way of doing things was followed strictly until the end of the Tokugawa shogunate. The Meiji period was a time of rapid Westernization, when many traditional Japanese arts and customs were discarded in favor of more modern ways. Dan-i (technical ranks) and shogo (teaching titles) could be obtained in a much shorter time than the licenses awarded by the soke of a classical tradition and came to be more highly regarded. The development of national organizations for the gendai budo (modern martial ways) has contributed further to the weakening of the popularity and general recognition of the classical martial arts. In fact, it has only been due to the continuing efforts of a few stubborn, dedicated people and such organizations as the Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai and Nihon Kobudo Kyokai, that kobudo ryu have been able to preserve themselves in the face of all the social and economic pressures of the modern era. It is important for those of us who are studying the modern systems to take a close look at the classical traditions lest the lessons they have for us be lost.

Copyright ©1994 Meik Skoss. All rights reserved.
​

http://koryu.com/library/wbodiford1.html
Soke:
Historical Incarnations of a Title and its Entitlements

by William M. Bodiford

Who or what is a soke? If Internet websites can be believed, in the English-speaking world the Japanese word soke has become a title for individuals who claim to be "great grandmasters" or "founders" of martial arts.1 Surprisingly, however, the term is not explained in recent English-language dictionaries of martial arts directed toward general readers, nor in the more authoritative books about Japanese martial culture.2 Apparently this very obscurity provides commercial advantage when it is invoked in a competitive marketplace crowded with instructors who promote themselves not just as high-ranking black belts, but as masters or even grandmasters. This English-language usage stands in stark contrast to the connotations of the word soke in Japan where, if it is used at all, it strongly implies loyalty to existing schools, deference to ancestral authority, and conservative adherence to traditional forms. Despite what many seem to believe in the West, as a Japanese word soke has never meant "founder," nor does it mean "grandmaster."

Confusion over the word soke, however, is not confined to people who lack Japanese-language skills; it exists in Japan as well. These misunderstandings arise because in premodern and modern Japan the term represents different (yet related) meanings and connotations depending on the diverse contexts in which it appears. We can distinguish several different patterns of usage associated with the term soke throughout Japanese history.3 For this reason, when describing soke in English (or, rather, when arguing about its meaning) it is useful first to chronicle the many ways that this word has been used in the historical record. Then one can better evaluate the ways that this term has been conceptualized by modern writers and applied (or misapplied) in contemporary situations.

Soke originated as a Chinese word (Mandarin zongjia) with strong familial and religious connotations. Etymologically it is written with glyphs indicating a family that performs ancestor rites. In Chinese texts it designates either the members of a household belonging to the same clan or the main lineage within an extended clan, the head of which was responsible for maintaining the ancestral temple on behalf of the entire clan organization. In Japanese texts as well, soke always implied a familial relationship replete with filial duties. Japanese use of this word was not limited to consanguineous contexts, though, since many kinds of social relationships were organized around pseudo-familial models. Religious societies, commercial enterprises, and teaching organizations all employed familial vocabulary and observed rites of familial etiquette. In these contexts, the term soke often implied exclusivity and commercial privilege, with less emphasis on formal religious duties.

For most of early Japanese history the privileges of power, wealth, and civilization were controlled exclusively by the court, the aristocrats, and the Buddhist clergy, all three of which reinforced one another in mutual dependence. As Buddhist clerics developed their combined exoteric-esoteric (ken-mitsu) form of tantra, they gave rise to a shared "culture of secret transmission" (Stone, 97-152). In other words, Buddhist pedagogical systems in which tantric rituals were taught via oral initiations (kuden) available only to members of exclusive master-disciple lineages became the normative teaching method across elite society (Nishiyama 1982b, 146-147). Within this culture, the arts of civilization prized most by wealthy nobles became the exclusive property of certain families. For example, the Nijo and Reizei branches of the aristocratic Fujiwara family each taught and maintained control over mutually exclusive systems of initiation into the mysteries of Japanese poetics (waka). Lower down on the economic ladder, designated merchant families exercised exclusive commercial control over the production and distribution of certain types of manufactured goods used by aristocrats, such as extravagant ceramics (for example, raku ware; Nishiyama 1982b, 51). Those families maintained their hereditary monopolies through the protection and patronage of local nobles or of the court.

These families operated much like corporate entities in which many affiliated kinship groups functioned in unison. Among the members of the united kinship groups only the individual successor--usually the oldest son--of the current family head received full initiation into the secrets of the family craft. Even if proper male progeny did not exist, economic necessity demanded that the main family line always continue since hereditary authority rested with that family alone. Whenever required, therefore, another male from one of the affiliated groups would be brought in and designated as heir to succeed the head of the family. The heir, whether related by blood or adopted, was responsible for maintaining the unity of the corporate families, maintaining their commercial monopoly, and maintaining their good relations with their patrons. Most of all he was responsible for preserving the secret texts, special tools, and knowledge of the oral initiations that constituted his family's exclusive lore. The legitimate possessors of that exclusive lore, both the main family itself as a multi-generational entity, and the individual current head of the family were called the soke. Use of this term was extremely limited, however, until after the establishment of the Tokugawa peace in 1603 provided the conditions for the development of new, more elaborate systems of familial privilege throughout the land.

During the Tokugawa period (1603-1868) of Japanese history, especially during the eighteenth century, many new types of artistic and cultural activities came under the domination of families that exercised proprietary authority over the performance of those arts and endeavors by others. These new familial lineages, which essentially operated as commercial guilds, referred to themselves as soke. The leading expert on this subject is a Japanese scholar named Nishiyama Matsunosuke. Early in his career, Nishiyama wrote two seminal studies of soke families and the ways they exercised their authority during this period of Japanese history: Iemoto monogatari (Iemoto Stories, 1956; reprinted as Nishiyama 1982a) and Iemoto no kenkyu (Researches in the Iemoto System, 1960; reprinted as Nishiyama 1982b).4 Although Nishiyama settled on the term iemoto, in the Tokugawa-period texts he studied the words iemoto and soke were used interchangeably, without any distinction in meaning (Nishiyama 1982b, 15). Both words were used to refer to the main lineage that asserted proprietary authority over a commercial guild or to refer to the person who had attained full initiation as the current legitimate head of that lineage.

Nishiyama cites several factors that contributed to the development of familial lineages (i.e., soke) as commercial guilds. The Tokugawa regime placed governmental authority in the hands of an upper echelon of warrior families who maintained their positions of power through assertions of hereditary privilege and attempts to enforce rigid codes of social distinctions. These new warrior elites readily accepted similar assertions of familial authority over the codification and teaching of artistic endeavors (Nishiyama 1982b, 91-92). Moreover, the warrior rulers patronized many new performative arts and forms of amusement that had developed independently from and, thus, outside the control of the old aristocratic families. It was the teachers of these new amusements--arts such as tea ceremony (chanoyu), flower arranging (ikebana), chess (shogi), Noh theater, verse (haikai), special forms of music and dance, and so forth--that most quickly asserted familial control over their teaching and over their performance by others (Nishiyama 1982b, 135-140). Finally, the long period of peace produced many unemployed former warriors (ronin) who could seek employment as junior instructors in these guilds; at the same time, the end of incessant warfare promoted the economic prosperity that enabled townsmen and rural landowners to amass surplus wealth that they could spend as pupils of these arts.

The existence of a network of junior instructors (i.e., natori) who taught in the name of the soke is a crucial feature that distinguished Tokugawa-period soke families from their earlier counterparts (Nishiyama 1982b, 106). During the Tokugawa period, instruction in the special skills associated with a particular artistic endeavor was marketed through networks of branch instructors who paid royalties and license fees to the soke and who were organized into a pyramid-like hierarchical structure with the soke on top. The soke asserted absolute authority over the branch instructors and indirect authority over their students by controlling what, how, and when subjects could be taught and by restricting access to the most advanced lore, to which the soke alone was privy. Nishiyama labeled the social structures associated with this type of exclusive familial control and networks of branch instructors the iemoto system (iemoto seido). He saw it as a unique feature of Japanese feudalism that exerted a strong influence over the development of many traditional Japanese arts even until modern times (Nishiyama 1982b, 20-21).

These Tokugawa-period artistic lineages can be likened to commercial guilds because they earned money from every single person who participated in their particular school's craft or art throughout the entire country. Nishiyama (1982b, 16) neatly summarizes the commercial rights (kenri) of these familial guilds as follows:

1. Rights regarding the techniques (waza) of the art, such as the right to keep it secret, the right to control how and when it is performed, and rights over the repertoire of its curriculum and its choreography (kata).

2. Rights over instructors (kyoju), over initiation rituals and documents (soden), and over the awarding of diplomas and licenses (menkyo).

3. The right to punish (chobatsu) and to expel (hamon) students.

4. The right to control uses of costumes, of stage names or artistic pseudonyms, and so forth.

5. The right to control facilities and special equipment or tools used in the art.

6. Exclusive rights to the monetary income and social status resulting from the preceding five items.

For almost every art or amusement patronized by the ruling elite, there existed only a limited number of these familial guilds, each one of which enforced the above rights over anyone who practiced that art throughout the entire kingdom.5 No one could legally perform a play, a song, a musical piece, or practice any other art in public without either joining the soke's school or paying fees for temporary permission (ichinichi soden). Enforcement of these exclusive rights enabled soke families to control huge populations of students across all strata of society. Nishiyama argues that from the middle of the eighteenth century these guilds provided a government-regulated medium for the distribution of cultural knowledge within which people assigned to different social classes (samurai of various ranks, townsmen, merchants, priests, wealthy farmers, rural warriors, etc.) could interact with one another on a near-equal footing (Nishiyama 1982b, 531; 1997, 204-208).

Nishiyama's research demonstrates that the near-monopoly control over the teaching of peaceful arts exercised by Tokugawa-period soke effectively prevented the proliferation of rival schools. In short, where soke existed, there were no new schools. The very creation of new schools repudiated any notion of soke authority (Nishiyama 1982b, 135-137). Seen in this light, it is obvious that the word soke in premodern Japanese documents could never be translated into English as "founder." The notion of "founder" is even less appropriate in modern Japan.

After 1868, when Japan became organized as a modern state, the government formally recognized the legal rights of soke (a.k.a. iemoto) families to control the copyright of all musical scores, theatrical plays, textbooks, and artistic works produced by members of their guilds (Nishiyama 1982b, 16). In this way, the terms soke and iemoto acquired legal definitions as designations for the modern representatives of the limited number of families who could provide historical documentation that they had controlled these kinds of commercial guilds during the Tokugawa period. To maintain their copyrights, the leaders of these families had to register with the government as legal entities. At the same time that they acquired copyrights, they lost their previous ability to restrict the teaching or performance of their arts by people from outside their guild. They became just one school or performance group among many. While they can restrict unauthorized use of their own name and their own historical resources, they have no legal power to inhibit competition. Today, as long as there is no copyright infringement, anyone can write new instructional guides to tea ceremony or any other traditional art. Anyone is free to devise new methods for practicing them.

Use of the term soke (or iemoto) in martial contexts is even more complex. Before 1868, soke families that were organized into the kinds of commercial guilds described above never controlled instruction in martial arts. This is the reason so many different lineages (ryuha) of martial arts existed in premodern Japan. The contrast between teaching organizations devoted to peaceful arts (such as tea ceremony, flower arranging, and so forth) and those concerned with martial arts could not be more stark. Instruction in any of the peaceful arts was available only from a small number of familial lineages, each one of which organized itself into a commercial guild with a network of affiliated branch instructors available throughout the land. On the other hand, there existed hundreds of different martial art lineages, the vast majority of which were confined to a single location.6 While many martial lineages were consanguineous (i.e., handed down from father to son), many others were not.

Nishiyama (1982b, 273-278) identifies several reasons why martial art lineages never developed into iemoto (a.k.a. soke) systems. Prior to the establishment of the Tokugawa peace, rapid acquisition of military prowess constituted the sine qua non of any system of martial instruction. An instructor who withheld instruction in the most advanced techniques as a family secret, as was the norm among soke who taught peaceful arts, could not have attracted students. For this reason, during the sixteenth century, military students usually attained full initiation rather quickly, after which they were free to teach all that they had learned to their own students. If anyone issued diplomas, they did so on their own authority, without having to pay license fees to any larger organization. After the Tokugawa regime imposed peace on the land, both older and new schools of martial instruction became more structured, more secretive, and developed more complex and time-consuming curriculums. Students who received diplomas no longer necessarily acquired independent rights to issue diplomas themselves.7 The ruling authorities also actively prevented any warrior groups or martial schools from developing organizational bonds across domain boundaries.8 Moreover, the rulers of each individual domain preferred to patronize only their own local martial systems, which could be kept under their own local control. Finally, in an age of peace it became practically impossible for any one martial lineage or group of lineages to demonstrate decisively their superiority over their rivals. Innovative teachers could (and did) devise new methods of martial training and establish new schools without having to risk lives to demonstrate their combat effectiveness.

Osano Jun (187-192) argues that the first martial art in Japan to adopt a true soke system was the Kodokan School of judo. Osano could be right. The Kodokan set the standards not just for members within one training hall in one location, but for all participants in judo throughout the nation. The Kodokan defined the art; it controlled licensing and instruction; and it established branch schools with instructors who maintained permanent affiliation with the headquarters. If the Kodokan does not recognize something as being "judo," then it is not judo. Therefore, there is no such thing as a new style of judo. All of these elements constitute essential characteristics of traditional soke organizations in Tokugawa-period Japan. In actual practice, however, no one ever refers to the Kodokan, or its current head, as the soke of judo.9 The term seems out of place with judo's emphasis on modernity. Having analyzing the term soke in this way, Osano also criticizes the present-day use of the soke label by some Japanese teachers who represent traditional martial art lineages (i.e., koryu). Osano asserts that such usage not only is incorrect but also reveals an ignorance of traditional Japanese culture.

Osano's strict historical understanding is probably too strict. He overlooks the legal and social changes in the status of soke that occurred after 1868. After Japan began to modernize, social critics denounced soke organizations as a disagreeable legacy of a feudal system based on hereditary privilege, which stifled innovation and restricted knowledge for the financial benefit of undeserving family heads who no longer possessed the skills of their ancestors (Nishiyama 1982c, 263-273). Soke organizations saw their networks of branch instructors wither as interest in traditional arts declined and former students broke away to found rival schools.10 Soon many traditional soke disappeared, especially in arts based on direct competition among participants such as Japanese chess (shogi) and in less well-known forms of dance and song. As more and more of these intangible cultural legacies disappeared, modern Japanese gradually developed a new appreciation for the soke families who had managed to preserve their own family traditions and teach them to new generations. Without the determination and persistence of the heirs of these families, direct knowledge of many traditional Japanese arts would have been lost.

Today one could argue that the historical differences between the heirs of Tokugawa-period family lineages which operated as commercial guilds (with the natori system) and the heirs of localized teaching lineages such as those associated with martial traditions are less significant than their modern similarities. In both cases the current successors remain the only legitimate sources for traditional forms of instruction in the arts of that lineage. In both cases the current successors have assumed responsibility for preserving the historical texts, special tools, unique skills, and specific lore that have been handed down within their own particular lineage. In both cases the current successors distinguish their traditional teachings from newly founded rivals by pointing out how their teachings remain faithful to the goals and forms taught by previous generations. Based on these similarities, many modern writers use the terms iemoto or soke as designations for the legitimate heir to any established main lineage. Used in reference to present-day representatives of traditional martial art lineages, therefore, the soke label properly denotes their roles as successors to and preservers of a particular historical and cultural legacy. It should not be interpreted as implying identification with a commercial network (as criticized by Osano) nor as being equivalent to "grandmaster" or "founder" (as mistakenly assumed by casual observers), and might best be translated simply as "head" or "headmaster."

Consider, for example, the case of Kashima-Shinryu (see Friday, Legacies of the Sword). In his books and articles, Seki Humitake, the current head of and nineteenth-generation successor to the Kashima- Shinryu lineage, uses the label soke as a designation for the Kunii family. He uses this term as a way of honoring the role the Kunii family played in preserving Kashima-Shinryu traditions. Down to the time of Seki's teacher, Kunii Zen'ya (1894-1966), Kashima-Shinryu forms of martial lore had been passed down consanguineously within the Kunii family from father to son from one generation to the next. Seki's modern use of the label soke simply acknowledges that legacy.11 In the writings of Kunii Zen'ya and in the traditional scrolls preserved within the Kunii family, however, the word soke cannot be found. Kunii Zen'ya never referred to himself or to his family as the soke of Kashima-Shinryu. He simply signed his name. In writing out copies of his family's old scrolls (these copies would be handed out as diplomas), though, he usually would add the words "Kunii-ke soden" before the title of each scroll. For example, if he copied an old scroll titled "Kenjutsu mokuroku" he would give it the title "Kunii-ke soden kenjutsu mokuroku." In this example, the original title simply means "fencing curriculum" while the longer version means "the fencing curriculum transmitted within the Kunii family." Used to represent this sense of "transmitted within a family," the term soke seems perfectly reasonable. It merely implies that the lore associated with this curriculum was taught exclusively within the Kunii familial lineage.

In concluding, it is difficult to condone the use of obscure Japanese terminology to describe American social practices for which perfectly acceptable English words already exist. One must struggle to imagine how any non-Japanese could call himself a "soke" in English except as a joke. At the same time it is also difficult to regard this term with any special reverence or to become overly troubled by its misuse among self-proclaimed "grandmasters" and "founders." During the Tokugawa period the word soke designated a commercial system of hereditary privilege that took advantage of the ignorance of ordinary people for financial gain. Perhaps teachers of commercial martial art schools in America who adopt the title soke for themselves are more historically accurate in their usage than they themselves realize.

​

Endnotes

References

Copyright ©2002 William M. Bodiford. All rights reserved.
​

 

[RRouuselot]

Here is a list of groups and people that try to assimilate themselves to the title Soke.



http://www.soke.org/



This guy is a poster child for bad budo. Not only was he busted for running a fake University it was proven in a US court he has no real right to claim most of the rank he has claimed

http://members.cavtel.net/greatneck/Soke%20Rod%20Sacharnoski%20-%20Juko%20Kai%20International.htm



http://www.isf-alga.com/about_soke_toshishito_obata.htm



http://www.hon-do-ryu-karate.com/Soke/soke.html



Another poster child

http://www.louisvillekempo.com/Soke.htm



http://www.geocities.com/jang_sul/Soke_Amos_Hunter_Page.html



http://www.petermortonjujitsu.org.au/frog.htm



Don’t even get me started on this guy

http://www.bubishi.com/about/soke_bio.html





“Inazuma” ryu taijutsu….. sounds almost like Inuzuma (dog wife)

http://ishh.net/soke%20leclair.htm



Notice all the BS titles on this guys site…not to mention the HUGE gut.

http://www.theimss.org/hanshi.htm



http://www.gojushorei.com/karatebiodave.htm



http://www.jiu-jitsu.freeserve.co.uk/soke.htm



There are several things you may notice about all of these Soke-dokes…..they all use whacky sounding Japanese names for their arts, they all seem to have tons of rank, hardly any of them look as if they train hard……..

My personal opinion is that people that use the term Soke in the west have a low self-esteem and are compensating for their real lack of knowledge and skill.

 

[Don Roley]

The use of the term "soke" kind of reminds me of the debate over the term "professor" in martial arts. I know a few people (who also do martial arts) who have gone full time to school for years to earn their PHDs and become instructors at credited universities. They and their friends are not too keen on some guy wearing pajamas for a few years using the same term. Same issues that we are debating about here- i.e. why use a term you are not qualified for instead of another perfectly good word, etc.

But it kind of struck me that since soke is not a common word in the west like "sensei" or "karate" then the guys who will probably first become known as soke in America are the fat, arrogent egotists that make up a majority of soke boards. If that is the case, why would anyone want to then use the term that may well soon become a term of insult in the west?

As much as AKJA may argue that his soke board may not be a bunch of losers, you have to say that a quick look on the internet under the term reveals that the vast majority of people using the term are just pathetic. If you are not going to use the Japanese use of the term, and insist on there being a English connotation for the word (which I reject until it is used in Websters or other major dictionary) you have to think that since it is mainly used by pathetic wanna-bes, that that definition (i.e. pathetic wanna-be) is what Americans in the near future are going to use. Why then would you want to use the term?

 

[RRouuselot]

The use of the term "soke" kind of reminds me of the debate over the term "professor" in martial arts. I know a few people (who also do martial arts) who have gone full time to school for years to earn their PHDs and become instructors at credited universities. They and their friends are not too keen on some guy wearing pajamas for a few years using the same term. Same issues that we are debating about here- i.e. why use a term you are not qualified for instead of another perfectly good word, etc.

But it kind of struck me that since soke is not a common word in the west like "sensei" or "karate" then the guys who will probably first become known as soke in America are the fat, arrogent egotists that make up a majority of soke boards. If that is the case, why would anyone want to then use the term that may well soon become a term of insult in the west?

As much as AKJA may argue that his soke board may not be a bunch of losers, you have to say that a quick look on the internet under the term reveals that the vast majority of people using the term are just pathetic. If you are not going to use the Japanese use of the term, and insist on there being a English connotation for the word (which I reject until it is used in Websters or other major dictionary) you have to think that since it is mainly used by pathetic wanna-bes, that that definition (i.e. pathetic wanna-be) is what Americans in the near future are going to use. Why then would you want to use the term?

Don,



I think you will be right…….as we project 5 minutes into the future I can see that you are indeed correct in your hypothesis that the term Soke, when used by western martial artists, is synonymous with “fat, arrogant, egotistical losers”.

Which is why I posted several links to Soke that I found with a Google search…….it didn’t exactly turn up the cream-de le cream of martial arts people. Most of them were over weight, most had REALLY high rank in obscure (read made up) styles or they outranked the people in the real honbu dojo of that style as in the case of the Matsumura Seito Ryu stylist.

I think people have at one time or another called you and I either a “Japan snob” or “Japan elitist” when we discuss things like this on these boards, however, I think anyone with an ounce of common sense can see what these western Soke are all about.

 

[Don Roley]

I think people have at one time or another called you and I either a “Japan snob” or “Japan elitist” when we discuss things like this on these boards, however, I think anyone with an ounce of common sense can see what these western Soke are all about.

Well I really don't think this is about Japan at all. Yes, I have ended up living in Japan and studying here because of my drive to improve myself. But I have also flown back to the states to train with American martial artists who have actually faced knife attacks multiple times- which is rare in Japan.

My problem is mainly with the idea of a bunch of people presuming to tell others to bow down and respect them. That and resume padding. The idea that these groups somehow convey some sort of authority over others, and that we mere peons can't have less than worshipfull thoughts just rubs me the wrong way.

I can imagine a group telling it's members there will be an orginization they will respect and obey. Ed Parker called the shots on everyone using his name when he was alive. You use the name like that, you follow the rules the guy at the top sets down. If you study under a teacher, then you follow his requirements and rules. That is only natural.

And there were early groups in Japan set up by the goverment to regulate martial arts, and I have problems with that idea as well.

But in this case, I see that there is no goverment authority and so certain people have set themselves up to try to tell others that they should respect the people they admit. So far, every group has members that I know I cannot respect and that reflects badly on the entire orginization IMO.

I kind of resent the attitude of "how dare you try to judge a great teacher like mine." They presume to judge if a group is worthy of joining or not and then take the attitude that they are above being judged themselves? That goes against my grain.

I know guys that I could respect if they put together groups like this. But maybe because they are of a caliber that I can respect they don't do so. I go back to train with people with real experience in life of death struggles, but not one of these guys with provable experience presumes to set themselves up to tell others to respect them or those they associate with. They let people be judged on their own merits and abilities and not by a piece of paper issued by someone who has never met someone from their art other than by videotape. I like the idea of standing on your own merit- and I don't see that if you need to join an orginization with no relation to your art.

 

[Makalakumu]

Don,



I think you will be right…….as we project 5 minutes into the future I can see that you are indeed correct in your hypothesis that the term Soke, when used by western martial artists, is synonymous with “fat, arrogant, egotistical losers”.

Which is why I posted several links to Soke that I found with a Google search…….it didn’t exactly turn up the cream-de le cream of martial arts people. Most of them were over weight, most had REALLY high rank in obscure (read made up) styles or they outranked the people in the real honbu dojo of that style as in the case of the Matsumura Seito Ryu stylist.

I think people have at one time or another called you and I either a “Japan snob” or “Japan elitist” when we discuss things like this on these boards, however, I think anyone with an ounce of common sense can see what these western Soke are all about.

In Tang Soo Do, it takes 5 years to reach chodan. 2 more years to reach Eedan. 3 more for samdan...ect. Eighth dan is the highest rank in TSD and I know of only a handfull of people who can claim this. As far as I know, this ranking structure seems to be prevelent among many other martial arts.

With this being said, if you add up the minimum time requirements to reach this highest of rank it equates to a minimum of 40 years of hard training. Therefore, I expect to see an old man claiming such a rank.

Some of these "soke" don't look too much older then me (I'm 28 and I came across a few that were 35-40 max). Moreover, they are claiming rank that if actually earned, it would take hundreds of years to accomplish. This is rediculous. Even if you take cross training into account, these claims are impossible.

I don't know what can be done about this. One could spend a lifetime attempting to expose these frauds for what they are. It is interesting to note that the two real 7th and 8th dans that I know could care less about these people. There may be some wisdom in that.

Yet, I can't help but feel irate at these claims. I worked hard to attain my level of training and it bothers me that someone would lie and claim my rank or higher. These lies do not in anyway affect my training, but they do affect other peoples perception of that training. Apparently, with these gazillion 10th dans walking around, a 2nd dan isn't so much. I had a prospective student tell me this in not so many words. I shrugged my shoulders and showed him the door.

So, what am I really worried about? Status? If that is the case, then I think that I need to give that up and learn from my seniors. Or maybe there is something more to this issue that I am not understanding and this would justify my negative feelings to these peoples lies.

So I ask this, what is the real problem here? These lies diminish the status of real people who acheived real rank, yet it doesn't seem to be important to the people who actually earned those ranks. What am I missing?

upnorthkyosa

 

[RRouuselot]

​

​

DR. ROD SACHARNOSKI

SOKE

JUKO KAI INTERNATIONAL - ALL OKINAWAN MARTIAL ARTS

Dr. Rod Sacharnoski was born in New Jersey in 1939. He began studying the martial arts in 1950 in Seabrook, N.J. He received his instruction in the local Japanese community. In 1954 he began training in Dai Yoshin Ryu Bujutsu under A.C.Church in Hammond, IN.



In 1961, his tour of duty completed, he returned to the U.S., having earned a 3rd degree black belt in Okinawan Jiu Jitsu, a 1st degree black belt in Okinawan Judo, and a 3rd degree in Okinawan Kenpo. During that time, he realized the importance of Ki and the arts and founded the world's only art of Combat Ki.



After his return to the States, The New Jersey Jiu Jitsu Yudanshakai was founded in 1962. He was able to unify numerous American Sensei into a parent (umbrella) organization and certify them. Dr. Sacharnoski also served in the following capacities:



Deputy U.S. Marshal

Chief of Police

Director of Public Safety

Sheriff's Police Training Commisioner

Deputy Sheriff

CountyCriminal Detective

Police Officer

U.S. Marine

U.S. Army



Dr. Sacharnoski is the founder and current president of Juko-Kai International. He is considered in the orient to be the world’s highest graded, non-Asian martial arts master. His accomplishments in the martial arts are well documented. He can be found in the Who's Who of Martial Arts. During his big demonstration days he was even on late with Johnny Carson. Among his achievements:



First and only (as of this writing) non-Asian to be recognized and sponsored as Dai-Soke (Founder) in both Okinawa and Japan.

First non-Asian in America to achieve 8th Dan ranking in Sport Judo.

One of Two non-Asians to earn 8th Dan Hanshi ranking in Seidokan Motobu-ryu, Kobudo

and Toide which was

awarded in 1988 by Shian Toma, Soke, 10th Dan, president of the All Okinawa Seidokan

Motobu-ryu Karate-

Kobudo Association of Okinawa/Japan.

Acclaimed as the "Father of Modern day Ju-jutsu" and "Father of Non-Asian Soke."

Is the current headmaster of the Dai Yoshin-ryu Aiki system of the Yokota family

He is one of the few non-Asians to hold official posts as a member of various Board of Governors in major Asian

organizations.



Currently he is:



International Director for the International Okinawan Martial Arts Union (Okinawa/Japan) (IOMAU)

International Director for the All Okinawa Seidokan Motobu-ryu Martial Arts Union

International Representative for the All Japan Dai Seibukan Budo/Bugei Martial Arts union.



A veteran with seven years service in the U.S. Marine Corps and the U.S. Army. He earned his doctorate (Ph.D.) in Criminal Justice in 1982 from ColumbiaPacificUniversity, Mill Valley, California.



Dr. Sacharnoski is a martial arts legend and a world famous demonstrator. Some of you have seen him in the movies where he starred with his long-time friend and associate, Ed Parker, the Father of Modern Day Karate in the USA. Or you may have seen him demonstrate in MadisonSquareGarden for ABC’s Wide World of Sports, or perhaps on the Johnny Carson Show, The Noontime Show in Hollywood, Good Morning America, CNN, The Roy Firestone Show on ESPN Sports Live, or some of the other major networks. Most martial artists know him from the major martial arts publications and magazines which have featured him and his methods for the past 25 plus years. As an inductee into several Black Belt Hall of Fame's, it isn't hard to understand why Dr. Sacharnoski is so highly regarded. Here are a few of his martial arts and professional achievements:



He is the first non-Asian to be graded and recognized in both Japan and Okinawa as a Soke of an Asian certified ryu, and is the only known non-Asian to receive 10th Dan rank recognition in Japan/Okinawa.



He was an 8th Dan member of the Chicago Judo Yudansha-kai, USJF, (1983-1988), and in the late 1980's he became the first non-Asian to achieve his 9th Dan in traditional (non-sport) judo under the Seibukan judo division, Japan.



He has been a Law Enforcement official for more than 30 years. He is a prior Deputy United States Marshal, Chief of Police, Director of Public Safety, County Sheriff's Police Training Commissioner, Deputy Sheriff, County Criminal Detective and Police Officer. Dr. Sacharnoski holds numerous national law enforcement awards and certifications, including an award for bravery.



Seven years of honorable service in the United States Marines and the United States Army. Served as Chief Instructors in both organizations.

Dr. Sacharnoski has also trained more than 300 law enforcement agencies in Defensive Tactics and Weaponry and has trained members of the United States Secret Service, Marshals Service, the FBI, U.S. Customs, as well as numerous State Police, Highway Patrol and Municipal departments.



Dr. Sacharnoski serves in the following capacities for the following Asian martial arts unions of Japan and Okinawa;



He is the founder and developer of the world famous Juko-Ryu combat Ki arts which permits specially trained martial artists to take full power strikes and kicks to the vital areas of the body without injury.



He trained the Dallas Cowboys football team in the special hard Ki methods of Internal Energy, and has also trained Ross Perot's personal bodyguards and security specialists in Defensive Tactics and specialized personal protection.


​

~ Written by R. Smith Headmaster of GreatNeckMartialArtsCenter ~



Congradulations!

​

Dr. Rod Sacharnoski was awarded an honorary 10th Dan in Bujinkan Budo

By Soke Hatsumi of Japan. This Honor was bestowed upon him by Shihan John Willson who is member of Juko Kai International and Bujinkan Budo. Soke Sacharnoski has developed a ninjitsu program - Juko Kai Ninpo in which it is based on his studies of Soke Hatsumi.

​

The above came from this website:
http://members.cavtel.net/greatneck/Soke%20Rod%20Sacharnoski%20-%20Juko%20Kai%20International.htm


Dr. Sach's claims a Phd from Columbia Pacific University California. Seems it was a diploma mill.......


http://www.ptreyeslight.com/stories/dec24/chileno.html




​

Point Reyes Light -- December 24, 1997

Chileno doctor in trouble over 'phony' university

​

By Paul Neimann

Chileno Valley resident Dr. Les Carr, whose property was briefly home to an illegal "north campus" of San Rafael-based Columbia Pacific University, is once again under fire in connection with the correspondence school.

The state attorney general's office last week filed suit to compel Columbia Pacific to close down, pay civil penalties, and refund tuition fees. Carr is named in the suit as owner, dean of faculty, and the institution's chairman of the board.

Carr had finally settled his earlier squabble with Marin planning officials early this year.

Carr co-founded Columbia Pacific in 1978 to offer "non-residential" degree programs up to the Ph.D. level.

​

'Phony operation'

Deputy Attorney General Asher Rubin blasts the school in his complaint, calling it "a diploma mill which has been preying on California consumers for too many years." The suit also calls Columbia Pacific a "phony operation" offering "totally worthless [degrees]...to enrich its unprincipled promoters."

In addition to his role at Columbia Pacific, Carr is currently a permanent part-time psychologist for San Quentin correctional facility.

Neither he nor Columbia Pacific representatives responded to phone calls this week.

In 1994 the county discovered eight permit-less dormitories on Carr's property at 148 Wilson Hill Rd. He was cited for multiple zoning, safety, and health violations.

​

Promos differed from memo

Additionally, Carr had applied for - and been denied - a permit for "institutional use" of his property, which is zoned for agriculture. In a memo to county planners, Carr wrote: "For the record, no university educational functions or any other institutional functions are currently taking place or are intended to take place [on the property]."

However, as The Light subsequently revealed, promotional literature for Columbia Pacific touted a "retreat center on a beautiful 14-acre ranch in northern Marin County," with offices for the dean of faculty and alumni affairs located there. Columbia Pacific also maintained a phone listing for the property as its "North Campus."

​

Buildings torn down

In a process that zoning officer Ladonna Thompson called "long and drawn-out," Carr last March received approval for a main dwelling, guest house, and office-library. Other structures have been removed.

As part of planning negotiations, Carr had to show Columbia Pacific does not operate on his property. Additionally, he was required to remove references to the ranch from university literature and telephone listings.

The current lawsuit addresses Columbia Pacific's defiance of a ruling by the state's Council for Private Postsecondary and Vocational Education, which approves the operation of all private, post-secondary schools in California.

Columbia Pacific last applied to the council in 1994. After a period of review and response, the council denied the school permission to operate as a degree-granting institution in Dec. 1995.

​

College kept recruiting

Nevertheless, the lawsuit charges, Columbia Pacific "brazenly continued to operate, taking in fees and accepting new students."

"There's a real aspect of contempt to this," attorney Rubin said Monday.

The suit is particularly harsh on Columbia Pacific's operators, calling them "greedy and unprincipled."

Owner Carr's ventures have a history of drawing censure.

The state shut down Oakland's Highview Convalescent Hospital, which Carr owned until 1990, after inspectors found serious health violations. A health care workers' union subsequently accused Carr of refusing to negotiate and misdirecting benefits payments.

Carr briefly lost his directorship of the American Endurance Ride Conference when accused of mistreating a horse in 1990. Carr sued to retain his position, but was suspended from competition as a rider. The same horse died in 1992 when entered in two consecutive races, the first of which was 250 miles. Another grievance was filed against Carr, but the conference found no grounds for action.

Columbia Pacific has provoked no less criticism. Alarming anecdotes punctuate the education council's findings:

· One master's-degree student was given credit for "a learning contract describing how he would continue taking dance lessons and watch dance demonstrations in order to improve his skills as a Country Western dancer."

· A Ph.D. dissertation written in Spanish was approved by four faculty who cannot speak the language.

· One dissertation "had no hypothesis, no data collection, and no statistical analysis. A member of the visiting committee characterized the work as more like a project paper at the college freshman level." The dissertation, The Complete Guide to Glass Collecting, was 61 pages long.

· At least nine students who received Ph.D.s in 1994 had been enrolled less than 20 months, four of them less than 12.

The state's case summarizes the university's alleged violations of the Education Code by noting there is "not even a semblance of compliance with the statutes which govern such institutions. The curriculum had no substance behind its lofty description; faculty was virtually non-existent; course work was laughable...degree requirements were routinely ignored..."

Nevertheless, Columbia Pacific continues to imply the school offers state-approved degree programs.

​

Men are from Mars

The University's promotional materials include a letter, dated March 20 1997, from Mill Valley-based John Gray, Ph.D., author of the pop-psychology best-seller Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus.

Writes Gray, "As a satisfied alumnus of Columbia Pacific University, it is my pleasure to endorse the University and urge you to become aware of your opportunity to earn an approved graduate degree on a totally non-residential independent study basis."

He adds, "I truly enjoyed my academic program...You deserve to receive recognition and credit for your accomplishments."

However, some noted alumni of Columbia Pacific have had substantial difficulty getting public "recognition" for their degrees.

​

'Big John'

In 1992, "Big John" Stephenson, a 380-pound Kentucky political figure, had his Columbia Pacific degrees fall under scrutiny when he attempted a power-grab in that state's education system.

Stephenson had been elected Kentucky's Superintendent of Public Instruction - in that state a titular office stripped of all powers. According to Louisville's Courier-Journal, Stephenson's campaign was boosted by Democratic gubernatorial candidate Brereton Jones, who often called on Big John to sing at public events. Stephenson raised a furor when he threatened to assume real duties and proposed a $2 million budget for himself.

When Stephenson's Columbia Pacific credentials came under fire, Kentucky Democratic Chairman Grady Stumbo referred to him as "this wart we have on the ticket."

​

Cult expert

Another Columbia Pacific graduate, Dale Griffis, an Ohio policeman-turned-consultant on cult and occult issues, had his education ridiculed during a 1994 high-profile Arkansas murder trial.

The Arkansas Democrat-Gazette reported that Griffis provided prosecutors with such expert testimony as "occultists typically wear black clothes, black hair and fingernails, earrings, and tattoos."

Defense attorneys "scoffed at" Griffis' expertise and his degree, for which he traveled to San Rafael "four or five times." He was permitted to testify as to motive, but not facts of the case.

The attorney general's case alleges Columbia Pacific has perpetrated a fraud on the public by awarding degrees nobody values. It seeks to at least partially restore tuition fees students "paid to a school they did not know was illegal."

The attorney general's office was unable to speculate how much money, in refunds and penalties, might be at stake.










​

 

[arnisador]

The use of the term "soke" kind of reminds me of the debate over the term "professor" in martial arts. I know a few people (who also do martial arts) who have gone full time to school for years to earn their PHDs and become instructors at credited universities. They and their friends are not too keen on some guy wearing pajamas for a few years using the same term. Same issues that we are debating about here- i.e. why use a term you are not qualified for instead of another perfectly good word, etc.

It's one thing when a Wally Jay, after a lifetime of achievement, starts to be called "Professor" as a tribute by his students. It's another thing when a master in his own mind tells his students to call him that. So many martuial artists use Professor now, and some arts have built the title into their rank structure.It's an academic rank--I view it like calling all 5th degree black belts Colonel or something.

Prof. Remy Presas, of Modern Arnis, had been teaching at the U. of the Phil. and the title carried over. But we have more professors than sokes, it seems.

Then there are the ones who have fake doctorates...sheesh. Continually finding a respected title, and adopting it in hopes that respect will follow.

 

[arnisador]

Heh, the Juko-Kai guy is an example of what I meant...a fake doctorate:
http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/News/cpu.html

"Court Orders Columbia Pacific University to Cease Operating Illegally in California"

 

[arnisador]

My personal opinion is that people that use the term Soke in the west have a low self-esteem and are compensating for their real lack of knowledge and skill.

Yes, I'd think that one would have to have low self-esteem to feel that it's the title that makes the man. But beyond that, the failure to do the research before assuming the title, in order to understand what it means and why it wouldn't be approrpiate, is what really gets me. They don't even look into it!

 

[Makalakumu]

In Tang Soo Do, it takes 5 years to reach chodan. 2 more years to reach Eedan. 3 more for samdan...ect. Eighth dan is the highest rank in TSD and I know of only a handfull of people who can claim this. As far as I know, this ranking structure seems to be prevelent among many other martial arts.

With this being said, if you add up the minimum time requirements to reach this highest of rank it equates to a minimum of 40 years of hard training. Therefore, I expect to see an old man claiming such a rank.

Some of these "soke" don't look too much older then me (I'm 28 and I came across a few that were 35-40 max). Moreover, they are claiming rank that if actually earned, it would take hundreds of years to accomplish. This is rediculous. Even if you take cross training into account, these claims are impossible.

I don't know what can be done about this. One could spend a lifetime attempting to expose these frauds for what they are. It is interesting to note that the two real 7th and 8th dans that I know could care less about these people. There may be some wisdom in that.

Yet, I can't help but feel irate at these claims. I worked hard to attain my level of training and it bothers me that someone would lie and claim my rank or higher. These lies do not in anyway affect my training, but they do affect other peoples perception of that training. Apparently, with these gazillion 10th dans walking around, a 2nd dan isn't so much. I had a prospective student tell me this in not so many words. I shrugged my shoulders and showed him the door.

So, what am I really worried about? Status? If that is the case, then I think that I need to give that up and learn from my seniors. Or maybe there is something more to this issue that I am not understanding and this would justify my negative feelings to these peoples lies.

So I ask this, what is the real problem here? These lies diminish the status of real people who acheived real rank, yet it doesn't seem to be important to the people who actually earned those ranks. What am I missing?

upnorthkyosa

I realize that this is a separate issue to some, but every single "soke" I've looked at also claimed bogus rank. In my opinion, the issue of bogus rank and the bogus use of the term "soke" are inseparable.

 

[arnisador]

Well I really don't think this is about Japan at all. Yes, I have ended up living in Japan and studying here because of my drive to improve myself. But I have also flown back to the states to train with American martial artists who have actually faced knife attacks multiple times- which is rare in Japan.

This is a very good point. There's wisdom and experience--experience from training, and from fighting--to be had wherever you go. Training in the States probably has some advantages, as does training in Japan--or rather, it makes sense to keep your eyes open and learn wherever and whenever you can. I'm sure there are places in Japan where you could get that kind of experience too; and I know there are excellent, traditional martial artists here.

It's not about Japan. It's about authenticity and honesty.

 

[arnisador]

I realize that this is a separate issue to some, but every single "soke" I've looked at also claimed bogus rank. In my opinion, the issue of bogus rank and the bogus use of the term "soke" are inseparable.

Heh. I think you may be right. Perhaps Wally Jay's use of 'soke' for his inheritors is an exception (though I think he chanegd how he did that, and left it all to Leon Jay, not to four people as originally planned).

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

I'm currently away for the weekend teaching seminars this weekend so I'll keep this short. I've been inducted into several Halls of Fame and after going threw this process I think they're mostly crap! As far as the Grandmasters in the Soke council I see 3 that barely deserve the rank of Black Belt let alone GM!