So I just watched dancing with the stars and....

chrispillertkd

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ok so i used hypocrite wrong, actually maybe not so far wrong, after all she grew up with the abstinence because her mum believes in it. So she probably claim to believe in this even before she got pregnant.

Again, you don't seem to know what "hypocrisy" means.

Of course she probably believed in the moral superiority of abstinence (and it is not unheard of for people's children to believe things because they were taught to believe them by their parents in the first place). That doesn't mean sleeping with her boyfriend made her a hypocrite. It makes her someone who failed to live up to their moral standards. Just like the rest of us. She would be a hypocrit if she said it was wrong to engage in pre-marital sex but did it anyway and thought or expressed that it was OK for her to do it. I have seen no indication that she said or even believes this. In fact, from the little I know of Bristol Palin it seems to me to be quite the opposite, viz. she quite freely admits her behavior was wrong.

Pax,

Chris
 
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Blade96

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Again, you don't seem to know what "hypocrisy" means.

Of course she probably believed in the moral superiority of abstinence (and it is not unheard of for people's children to believe things because they were taught to believe them by their parents in the first place). That doesn't mean sleeping with her boyfriend made her a hypocrite. It makes her someone who failed to live up to their moral standards. Just like the rest of us. She would be a hypocrit if she said it was wrong to engage in pre-marital sex but did it anyway and thought or expressed that it was OK for her to do it. I have seen no indication that she said or even believes this. In fact, from the little I know of Bristol Palin it seems to me to be quite the opposite, viz. she quite freely admits her behavior was wrong.

Pax,

Chris

Ok, thanks! =]

Aint it nice when you get stuff wrong and nice people like Chrispillartkd take the time to explain it to you. :)

Thanks, Chris. :)
 

crushing

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Apprently you aren't the only one upset with Palin:

A 67-year-old man from Wisconsin was arrested by police yesterday for shooting his TV because he was so enraged with Bristol Palin's moves on Dancing With The Stars.

Steven Cowan apparently told authorities that he felt Bristol was not a good dancer and was only on the show because of her famous mother, former presidential candidate Sarah Palin.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ncing-With-The-Stars-moves.html#ixzz15ZiRsRNc

I don't know if she is a good dancer or not, but of course she is on the show because of her mother is famous and gave the Palin family a sort of celebrity status. DUH!
 

Nomad

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I have no problem with the idea of abstinence (for others, anyway... I don't like it applied to me at all), what I have a problem with is that so many (including the Palins from everything I've read/heard from them) equate the idea of abstinence with "Abstinence ONLY" education. In my experience, abstinence is really something that can only be adopted from within, never imposed by others meaning well (whether those others are parents, religions, or politicians).

Telling teenagers who are just about literally bursting with brand-new mixes of hormones to just not have sex hasn't been very successful in the past, and there's no reason to think it will suddenly get more successful in the future. The truth is that the vast majority of kids who make chastity vows break them.

In a society where unwanted teenage pregnancy is quite common and sexually transmitted diseases are even more common, not teaching about the critical tools that can prevent both is criminal.

Education is not a bad thing, ever. Teaching about different options of birth control and safe sex, along with teaching responsible behavior, is absolutely key. Teenagers will learn about sex, the question we have to ask ourselves as parents is whether we want them to learn the truth from responsible sources, or wade through large amounts of myths, old wives tales, and outright BS on their way to knowledge. I'd rather they learned from a parent or educator than from the sometimes harsh realities of their own mistakes like Bristol Palin. The sad thing here is that she clings to her beliefs in spite of her own experience.

Promoting ignorance to prolong innocence is just not a good option, especially when the stakes are so high, up to and including their lives if you bring HIV into the mix.
 

Carol

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WC_lun

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Brystol Palin talking about her pregnancy is cool. Heck, I wish more teen mothers would talk about it. Maybe it would save some teenagers the lessons of unwanted teen pregnancy. I don't see how that is her being a hypocrit.

I do agree that we as a society need to let go of our Puritan roots enough to at least have some decent education for teens. Thier world starts turning upside down due to thier hormones and then they are expected to make decisions without quality information. On top of that, they are expected to make the "moral" decision that many adults don't make correctly.
 

Empty Hands

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Abstinence only education doesn't work. The recipients of said education have sex earlier, use protection less, catch more disease, and have more unintended pregnancies than their peers who receive comprehensive sex ed. You can talk about morality and permissivity and all the rest, but the unambiguous fact remains that the "immoral, permissive" education some decry does a better job of keeping their children chaste than their own preferred method.
 

Big Don

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and most people don't have self control. I dont think they should either not if they dont want to. And seriously, abstinence until marriage. I think, what if many people never get married? Do those people want to remain virgins til they die? I knew I didnt want to. I think, Yeah, do it if you want to, but it wasnt for me, and I dont think it is for most people, really.
Saw this in the Words to live by thread, and I couldn't help noticing that it was at odds with the comment above:
The quotes in my sig. For 2 examples. You don't have to hurt someone else to succeed in life, and you gotta have some discipline cause if you didnt have rules to live by you wouldnt get anywhere.
 

Ray

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If it's that bad PM! :)
Aw Shucks, I thought I was gonna make a wisecrack...then I figured it would either offend someone or make me look like a bigger idiot...

so what have we learned so far?...
 

Archangel M

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http://www.policeone.com/bizarre/articles/2919766-SWAT-standoff-Man-shoots-TV-over-Palin-dance/

MADISON, Wis. — A rural Wisconsin man apparently enraged by Bristol Palin's "Dancing with the Stars" routine blasted his television with a shotgun, leading to an all-night standoff with a SWAT team, investigators said.

...

When Palin, the 20-year-old daughter of tea party favorite Sarah Palin, began her routine, Cowan jumped up and began swearing, saying something like "The (expletive) politics." His wife said he was upset that a political figure's daughter was dancing on TV even though he felt she didn't have talent.


Between this and people debating the sexual choices of a young girl all leaves me wondering who the really crazy people in all of this are. :rolleyes:
 

crushing

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Abstinence only education doesn't work. The recipients of said education have sex earlier, use protection less, catch more disease, and have more unintended pregnancies than their peers who receive comprehensive sex ed. You can talk about morality and permissivity and all the rest, but the unambiguous fact remains that the "immoral, permissive" education some decry does a better job of keeping their children chaste than their own preferred method.

All Ms. Palin said was that "abstinence is a realistic choice." She said nothing about, nor did she promote abstinence only education. There is a perception that everyone is 'doing it', and that creates peer pressure. It may help some people to know that they don't have to give in to such pressure and that there really is a choice.
 

jks9199

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Abstinence only education doesn't work. The recipients of said education have sex earlier, use protection less, catch more disease, and have more unintended pregnancies than their peers who receive comprehensive sex ed. You can talk about morality and permissivity and all the rest, but the unambiguous fact remains that the "immoral, permissive" education some decry does a better job of keeping their children chaste than their own preferred method.
I agree; abstinence only teaching doesn't work. I don't have a problem with teaching about birth control methods -- so long as parents have the final say about what their kids get taught, and as long as we pair it with teaching responsibility and avoid dismissive teaching of abstinence.

Let's be honest: abstinence is the only way to truly guarantee no teen mothers. EVERY other method of birth control can and has failed in it's use. Employing abstinence has not.

Too often, absolutist viewpoints dominate the teaching. "Kids are going to have sex, so let's just hand out condoms and birth control pills" is one end of the spectrum. "Only telling kids not to have sex" is the other. A practical balance is somewhere in the middle; teach them that abstinence has a lot of pros, and few cons -- but if they're going to engage in sexual behavior, teach them how to do so in a responsible manner. Get away from the crazy nonsense that we're seeing now where kids are declaring that only vaginal intercourse is sex, and that oral or anal sex isn't dangerous. (Gee, thanks Mr. Clinton.) But let's also make it clear to them that they have the power to control their appetites, and don't have to give in to every desire.
 
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Blade96

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Apprently you aren't the only one upset with Palin:

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ncing-With-The-Stars-moves.html#ixzz15ZiRsRNc

I don't know if she is a good dancer or not, but of course she is on the show because of her mother is famous and gave the Palin family a sort of celebrity status. DUH!

Hah. Saw that on news feed on facebook. and i dont really like her either but i dont go and shoot my tv. I just posted on MT. :)

All Ms. Palin said was that "abstinence is a realistic choice." She said nothing about, nor did she promote abstinence only education. There is a perception that everyone is 'doing it', and that creates peer pressure. It may help some people to know that they don't have to give in to such pressure and that there really is a choice.

but it isnt realistic because it doesnt work People promoting abstinence until the cows come home. but it isnt working. so how is what she said right. Thats what annoyed me about it.

Saw this in the Words to live by thread, and I couldn't help noticing that it was at odds with the comment above:

hows that? I said people dont have discipline and i said you gotta have some.
 

crushing

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but it isnt realistic because it doesnt work People promoting abstinence until the cows come home. but it isnt working. so how is what she said right. Thats what annoyed me about it.

Again, she promoted it as a choice, a realistic personal choice. She wasn't shoving abstinence down anyone's throat or saying it is the only way. With all the pressure put on young people to engage in sexual activity, it may help a some people that are being pressured in to having sex before they feel ready, to say "no". Having been the pressurer and pressuree at times when I was younger, I can appreciate the liberating message that it is a choice.
 
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Blade96

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Again, she promoted it as a choice, a realistic personal choice. She wasn't shoving abstinence down anyone's throat or saying it is the only way. With all the pressure put on young people to engage in sexual activity, it may help a some people that are being pressured in to having sex before they feel ready, to say "no". Having been the pressurer and pressuree at times when I was younger, I can appreciate the liberating message that it is a choice.

I was the pressuree. I was a 30 year old virgin (by choice not because i never met anyone but because i never met the right person) and I was bullied so I went out and lost it to a guy i was dating in 2009. I know what its like. Its even harder to be a virgin at an older age because people assume there must be something wrong with you that no one wanted you. I was called every name in the book because i was a virgin and called ugly and im an ugly girl and such. But I also knew that in my heart in the event marriage didnt happen for me there was no way I wanted to remain a virgin for the rest of my life. I never found the abstinence until marriage message liberating. I found it disheatening and UNliberating. Its like I read on another MA site: Instead of avoiding drowning by not going near the water at all, why not learn to swim instead? Or, instead of avoiding dying in a car crash by not driving at all, why not learn to drive safer, to minimize the risks?
 

teekin

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What an interesting comment. Do you often free spar with people who don't want to have self-control? Do you train with an instructor who has no self-control? Are you married to someone with no self-control?



Well, yes they would remain virgins until they died. But remaining a virgin wouldn't be the thing that killed them, would it? The modern notion that sexual congress ranks slightly ahead of food and water on the hierarchy of needs is a laugh. The people I know personally who can't seem to comprehend going without also seem to be the people who reduce sex to an animal-like instinct, viewing people as no different than a rutting animal. Not so great, IMNSHO.

Pax,

Chris

So Chris, you have PhD's in what fields of human behavior? Where did you graduate? What was your research specialty? Any thought you have should be interesting as you just trashed all work done by both Maslow and Harlow. And to some extent all contemporary therapy based on Freud and Jung. ( refrence "Maslow's Hiearchy" and "Harlow's Monkies)

Has it not occured to you that most teenages and adults will only get the pleasure of human contact during sex? Some will only allow themselves to be touched during sex or even if they want to be touch will only be touched during sex. And your answer is "just abstain".???

Human Beings ARE animals and we are hardwired with certain impulses. Are they controlable, sure but Realisticly, when you look at the data, what % of people do you think will choose to give up being touched, comforted and loved even if it's just for a while? ( because THATS what it's about, not the sex) and thats why abstinance doesn't work.

lori
 

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