So called fancy - If you can, then do...

ATC

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Those that can, will. Those that can't, won't, but will also tell you that they don't work or how bad it is to try and do them. It is only bad if you can't.

[yt]ZRcHT64Qs2U[/yt]
 

ralphmcpherson

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Awesome. And, if it works on a trained fighter it will definetely work on some "average joe". As ATC said, people who say kicks like this dont work usually cant do them:)
 
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ATC

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First I like to say that I am glad the guy is OK. The setups was great as he used his hands to setup the kick. Great setup, great kick.
 

Cyriacus

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Of course they work - Incidentally, if you ever have an 'expendable' heavy bag, i recommend doing one of those with boots on. I did that once with a sacrificial bag. I mean, obviously theyre not meant to be kicked with heavy boots (Ok, the bag wasnt even designed to be kicked :D), but it looks really really cool.
 

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Those that can, will. Those that can't, won't, but will also tell you that they don't work or how bad it is to try and do them. It is only bad if you can't.

Nice kick. However, speaking as someone who can't do the super flashy kicks (I am a worn out tired old fat man...) I disagree with your last statement. I have not, nor am I likely to in the future, ever claimed that a kick won't work just because I don't use it.
 

Touch Of Death

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Nice kick. However, speaking as someone who can't do the super flashy kicks (I am a worn out tired old fat man...) I disagree with your last statement. I have not, nor am I likely to in the future, ever claimed that a kick won't work just because I don't use it.
Exactly. The problem with fancy kicks isn't that they don't work. The problem lies in the risk of injury.
Sean
 

Kong Soo Do

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Those that can, will. Those that can't, won't, but will also tell you that they don't work or how bad it is to try and do them. It is only bad if you can't.

True, some that can't will rain on the parade of those that can. That isn't unique to martial arts, that's just life. However, I would add that those that can may also tell you that they (fancy kicks) may work well in one venue and not so well in another. Look at your video for a moment. What do we see? Two indivuals engaged in a sport that are obeying the same rule set. They are lightly dressed and the clothing they're wearing is loose fitting and stretchable. They have previously warmed up and stretched out. They are in an open space on a flat, level, dry mat that is well-lit. Neither was surprised by the presence of the other. No weapons are involved and it is one-on-one.

So if your statement is concering a sporting venue, and only a sporting venue then we are in agreement.

If your statement is meant to lend credence to non-sport venues then, with respect, we are in disagreement.
 

andyjeffries

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True, some that can't will rain on the parade of those that can. That isn't unique to martial arts, that's just life. However, I would add that those that can may also tell you that they (fancy kicks) may work well in one venue and not so well in another. Look at your video for a moment. What do we see? Two indivuals engaged in a sport that are obeying the same rule set. They are lightly dressed and the clothing they're wearing is loose fitting and stretchable. They have previously warmed up and stretched out. They are in an open space on a flat, level, dry mat that is well-lit. Neither was surprised by the presence of the other. No weapons are involved and it is one-on-one.

So if your statement is concering a sporting venue, and only a sporting venue then we are in agreement.

If your statement is meant to lend credence to non-sport venues then, with respect, we are in disagreement.

The other way to consider this though is that this kick was landed on a professional elite level fighter, who is used to being hit, who is used to having kicks thrown high and knew he was facing someone with excellent kicking ability. I haven't watched the Youtube clip (so I don't know if contains the whole fight or any highlights of Uriah's), but I've seen both of his fights on that show and his kicks are quick, precise and powerful - so his opponent was well aware of that and still got caught.

Now, I understand what you're saying in that just because it worked here it's not guaranteed to work on the street, however bearing in mind that your average opponent isn't an elite level professional fighter who is expecting high and fast kicks and may be under the influence of alcohol or drugs - I'd say he'd stand a good chance of landing if he wanted.

Also, the not "warmed/stretching" part is a misnomer, because most high level (black belts who train to do high kicks) Taekwondoin can easily kick to the head without warmup.

Finally, the "loose fitting and stretchable" part, again, I don't have an issue kicking to the head in the jeans/trousers I normally wear. Sure my shoes would slow the kick down a bit, but aside from that as above - against an opponent that isn't trained to take the kick or expect it, I'd still give better than average odds of it hitting (of course personally I prefer a back kick to the face than a spinning hook kick, more chance of a knockout, and a body/power kick to their arms if they block/cover the head).
 

Cyriacus

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True, some that can't will rain on the parade of those that can. That isn't unique to martial arts, that's just life. However, I would add that those that can may also tell you that they (fancy kicks) may work well in one venue and not so well in another. Look at your video for a moment. What do we see? Two indivuals engaged in a sport that are obeying the same rule set. They are lightly dressed and the clothing they're wearing is loose fitting and stretchable. They have previously warmed up and stretched out. They are in an open space on a flat, level, dry mat that is well-lit. Neither was surprised by the presence of the other. No weapons are involved and it is one-on-one.


So if your statement is concering a sporting venue, and only a sporting venue then we are in agreement.

If your statement is meant to lend credence to non-sport venues then, with respect, we are in disagreement.

You can look at it on an even more basic level (to add to everything you listed) - Theyre confronting each other in stance, checking each other out. That doesnt really happen outside of a sporting environment.

I know that might sound contradictory to me just saying that 'of course they work!' so ill add a bit more on :)
Everything works. Being in a position to use it is whats tricky. Some stuff you can do under a large number of circumstances. Other stuff is more limiting. That doesnt make the other stuff bad or useless, just more limiting. Whether you want to learn those things is your call.
 

SahBumNimRush

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To throw my .02 in on the matter, although it wasn't a back hook kick, I had a student (5'2", 90 lb, 18 yof, 2nd dan), who last year was attacked on her university campus by an attempted rapist (6+ feet tall, 200+ lbs). He surprised her as she walked around a corner of a building, and pinned her up against the wall. She broke his grab, and jump roundhouse kicked him in the temple, knocking him out cold! I'd say that is a good example of a "flashy kick" being utilized in a SD situation extremely effectively.
 

Kong Soo Do

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Excellent discussion :)

The other way to consider this though is that this kick was landed on a professional elite level fighter, who is used to being hit, who is used to having kicks thrown high and knew he was facing someone with excellent kicking ability. I haven't watched the Youtube clip (so I don't know if contains the whole fight or any highlights of Uriah's), but I've seen both of his fights on that show and his kicks are quick, precise and powerful - so his opponent was well aware of that and still got caught.

Your point is valid. But I'd like to look at some things in more depth;

Now, I understand what you're saying in that just because it worked here it's not guaranteed to work on the street, however bearing in mind that your average opponent isn't an elite level professional fighter who is expecting high and fast kicks and may be under the influence of alcohol or drugs - I'd say he'd stand a good chance of landing if he wanted.

True, the average Joe isn't an elite fighter. And true the bad guy may be under the influence. This needs to be addressed a bit further. Under the influence has a range to consider. On one hand, we have the sloppy drunk you could run circles around. On the other hand, the K2 or bath salts user that will take a kick to the head...or for that matter several rounds to the chest and then fight you to the death. Please believe what I'm saying here as I have first-hand experience with these people. I've seen people laugh off repeated strikes to the testicles. Wipe O.C. spray out of their eyes and smile. Display super-human strength and not feel pain, inlcuding broken bones. These people, unfortunately exist and the numbers, again unfortunetly are increasing. That doesn't mean you're going to fight one every other day and I don't mean to imply that. But what if you did? Just a thought to keep during training.

Sometimes the 'average Joe' isn't what we're expecting.

Also, the not "warmed/stretching" part is a misnomer, because most high level (black belts who train to do high kicks) Taekwondoin can easily kick to the head without warmup.

I would state that this is very dependent upon age, injury and clothing. It also depends on footing. Is a high level Taekwondoin going to easily kick to the head without warming up in all circumstances? Is every high level Taekwondoin going to be able to kick high without warming up?

Finally, the "loose fitting and stretchable" part, again, I don't have an issue kicking to the head in the jeans/trousers I normally wear. Sure my shoes would slow the kick down a bit, but aside from that as above - against an opponent that isn't trained to take the kick or expect it, I'd still give better than average odds of it hitting (of course personally I prefer a back kick to the face than a spinning hook kick, more chance of a knockout, and a body/power kick to their arms if they block/cover the head).

And perhaps you could do very well. But I don't know what types of jeans/trousers you wear. In some of my jeans I could do well, in others not so much. What about a woman in a dress with heels? What about someone like me that wears a 25lbs batman belt? What about someone carrying their groceries? My point is that we aren't always going to be in a situation where we're ready to rumble.

Cyriacus put it very well;

Cyriacus said:
You can look at it on an even more basic level (to add to everything you listed) - Theyre confronting each other in stance, checking each other out. That doesnt really happen outside of a sporting environment.

I know that might sound contradictory to me just saying that 'of course they work!' so ill add a bit more on :)
Everything works. Being in a position to use it is whats tricky. Some stuff you can do under a large number of circumstances. Other stuff is more limiting. That doesnt make the other stuff bad or useless, just more limiting. Whether you want to learn those things is your call.
 

andyjeffries

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True, the average Joe isn't an elite fighter. And true the bad guy may be under the influence. This needs to be addressed a bit further. Under the influence has a range to consider. On one hand, we have the sloppy drunk you could run circles around. On the other hand, the K2 or bath salts user that will take a kick to the head...or for that matter several rounds to the chest and then fight you to the death. Please believe what I'm saying here as I have first-hand experience with these people. I've seen people laugh off repeated strikes to the testicles. Wipe O.C. spray out of their eyes and smile. Display super-human strength and not feel pain, inlcuding broken bones. These people, unfortunately exist and the numbers, again unfortunetly are increasing. That doesn't mean you're going to fight one every other day and I don't mean to imply that. But what if you did? Just a thought to keep during training.

This is a fair point if you're aiming to "hurt" your opponent. Certain chemicals will reduce the pain signals or increase tolerance, but the guy in the video was knocked out cold. I'm sure drugs can't shut the body's most basic reflex to shut down unconscious during an impact that causes this.

I would state that this is very dependent upon age, injury and clothing. It also depends on footing. Is a high level Taekwondoin going to easily kick to the head without warming up in all circumstances? Is every high level Taekwondoin going to be able to kick high without warming up?

And perhaps you could do very well. But I don't know what types of jeans/trousers you wear. In some of my jeans I could do well, in others not so much. What about a woman in a dress with heels? What about someone like me that wears a 25lbs batman belt? What about someone carrying their groceries? My point is that we aren't always going to be in a situation where we're ready to rumble.

Points well made and understood. What I'm saying is though that maybe whether high/spinning kicks are used may be dependent on age/fitness/clothing/etc. But I wouldn't rule them out - if you've trained for them and feel comfortable in that moment, you shouldn't have the negative doubt in your head of "don't do X, it doesn't work on the street".
 

Cyriacus

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To throw my .02 in on the matter, although it wasn't a back hook kick, I had a student (5'2", 90 lb, 18 yof, 2nd dan), who last year was attacked on her university campus by an attempted rapist (6+ feet tall, 200+ lbs). He surprised her as she walked around a corner of a building, and pinned her up against the wall. She broke his grab, and jump roundhouse kicked him in the temple, knocking him out cold! I'd say that is a good example of a "flashy kick" being utilized in a SD situation extremely effectively.

Well, in that instance, i suspect that would be lent to confusion, more than anything. (Should i run now? Should i keep going? Should i try and stop her from escaping? Is this really worth it? I swear i had her! Whats she doing n-)
He probably wasnt too bad - surprise-pinning someone against a wall isnt exactly the most effective way of restraining someone. He probably wasnt expecting that sort of resistance, and he probably wasnt equipped to deal with it even if it was something less 'flashy'.
 

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Man I love kicking people in the head, I usually have to bend them over with an armbar first but then...bring the rain!
 

SahBumNimRush

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Well, in that instance, i suspect that would be lent to confusion, more than anything. (Should i run now? Should i keep going? Should i try and stop her from escaping? Is this really worth it? I swear i had her! Whats she doing n-)
He probably wasnt too bad - surprise-pinning someone against a wall isnt exactly the most effective way of restraining someone. He probably wasnt expecting that sort of resistance, and he probably wasnt equipped to deal with it even if it was something less 'flashy'.

All of which are likely, especially since she is an attractive, small lady; i.e. a seemingly easy target. That said, the tiny girl laid out the big assailant with a "flashy kick" because it was something she was proficient and confident with.
 

Cyriacus

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All of which are likely, especially since she is an attractive, small lady; i.e. a seemingly easy target. That said, the tiny girl laid out the big assailant with a "flashy kick" because it was something she was proficient and confident with.

Of course - Because everything works. She got a chance to use it and so she did. Im just saying that that opportunity stemmed from the incompetence of her assailant.
...Dont get me wrong. I dont know who she is, but for her sake, im glad her attacker was incompetent and that she got to do something really cool :)
 

harlan

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My thinking: it takes years to learn, and get good enough to utilize, any martial art. If high kicks are your meat and potatos, your 'go-to' techniques, my thinking is that they have limited use over the long run. Taking into account aging, and the complexity of possible encounters, I personally don't see the sense in prioritizing high kicks.

A Goju man would have struck the same target with a forearm and had the same effect.

Those that can, will. Those that can't, won't, but will also tell you that they don't work or how bad it is to try and do them. It is only bad if you can't.

[yt]ZRcHT64Qs2U[/yt]
 

Kong Soo Do

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This is a fair point if you're aiming to "hurt" your opponent. Certain chemicals will reduce the pain signals or increase tolerance, but the guy in the video was knocked out cold. I'm sure drugs can't shut the body's most basic reflex to shut down unconscious during an impact that causes this.

This discussion is bringing up some very good points. Let me offer this for consideration. I'm not sure how many know about the 'Miami Massacre'? In L.E. it is a well known real life situaiton. In short, around eight FBI agents corner two bad guys after a road chase. Murphies law jumped out and just about everything that could go wrong for the good guys...did. Most were wounded and there were fatalities on both side. One of the perps was shot several times, including a non-surviveable wound (according to the M.E.) that nicked the heart. On pure adrenaline, after receiving a non-surviveable wound he fought for several minutes inflicting death and damage to the good guys.

I was working with a Deputy years ago that took a blow to the head during a use-of-force. We finished the use-of-force, exited the area and he walked perhaps 200 feet and started to make a phone call to the supervisor. This was maybe several minutes after the blow to the head. As I approached him, while he was on the phone I saw his eyes roll back in his head and he was out cold.

Both were pure adrenaline. Neither was 'chemically enhanced'.

I've seen EDP's take three rounds of 9mm to the chest and one blast of 00 buck at close range and still have to be physically subdued.

Point is that you just never know. One could strike/kick that puts one guy out another may laugh off.

Points well made and understood. What I'm saying is though that maybe whether high/spinning kicks are used may be dependent on age/fitness/clothing/etc. But I wouldn't rule them out - if you've trained for them and feel comfortable in that moment, you shouldn't have the negative doubt in your head of "don't do X, it doesn't work on the street".

We can all agree that if one can put a powerful kick to the side of someone's head it has a good chance of working as we'd like it too. Nothing of course is 100%. If one has that training, is comfortable with the trainig, proficient with the kick and the opportunity presents itself then fire in the hole!

I will offer though, and this is only my personal/professional opinion, kicks to the head aren't meant to be high kicks. What I mean is that some Korean forms call for a medium kick but a high one is done instead because...well, it looks better to the judges and 'wows' the spectators. But is it a correct understanding of the form? No, it's being flashy to win a contest. Is it is a go-to move for SD? In my opinion, no. I think a kick to the head is great in the right situation, but if there was a better overall understanding of kata/forms it would be understood that the kick to the head comes after the head has been relocated to about waist high or even lower. At least from an SD perspective.
 

SahBumNimRush

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I will offer though, and this is only my personal/professional opinion, kicks to the head aren't meant to be high kicks. What I mean is that some Korean forms call for a medium kick but a high one is done instead because...well, it looks better to the judges and 'wows' the spectators. But is it a correct understanding of the form? No, it's being flashy to win a contest. Is it is a go-to move for SD? In my opinion, no. I think a kick to the head is great in the right situation, but if there was a better overall understanding of kata/forms it would be understood that the kick to the head comes after the head has been relocated to about waist high or even lower. At least from an SD perspective.

I don't want to completely derail this thread from the OP, but I think at least from the modern TKD forms perspective, they weren't designed with that in mind. As for the older formsets coming from Karate, then yeah, I hear ya. But that does not discount the effectiveness of the strike in a fighting situation, only that its usefulness as mentioned above is limited depending on the situation.
 

StudentCarl

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I see two things that are worth keeping separate in a discussion like this: capability and judgment. It's important to increase your capability, and kicking higher and in more different ways is good for my capability. If I don't train them, they will FOR SURE never be useable. The other side of the coin is judgment. I enjoy sport sparring, but that's not how I train to fight. I don't know anyone who fights using the stances and techniques the way we train them on the dojang floor. The role of judgment is to use the right technique for the situation. That has to be trained too, but judgment is of limited value if you don't have capability.
 

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