SKH's books vs Toshindo

[stone_dragone]

This question is directed towards anyone with experience with SKH, Quest centers and Toshindo...

I have been reading SKH's 5 volume series (and other publications) and would like to know "How representative of his current training method are his books?" I have not tried to learn ninpo techniques from books, nor will I. However, I am thinking of seeking out a Quest center and am just doing research on the topic.

I also haven't ruled out Bujinkan involvement either (in fact, would like that if I can find it close enough).

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

This question is directed towards anyone with experience with SKH, Quest centers and Toshindo...

I have been reading SKH's 5 volume series (and other publications) and would like to know "How representative of his current training method are his books?" I have not tried to learn ninpo techniques from books, nor will I. However, I am thinking of seeking out a Quest center and am just doing research on the topic.

I also haven't ruled out Bujinkan involvement either (in fact, would like that if I can find it close enough).

Definately if you get a chance check out the Bujinkan!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[bydand]

This is a question that tears at me. I have SKH's books, and have the set I think you are refering to. Most of those were written before the To-Shin-Do days and while the movements are still there, the training style has changed. In response to Quest centers, while all are under SKH's umbrella, each center has a "feel" unique to itself, mainly due to the instructors teaching style. Honestly I can say that the couple of Quest center owners that I know, have been keeping up their personal trips to Japan for training and do things very different than the Dayton Quest Center where SKH is headquartered.

Go check out a couple of Quest centers if you can and also a couple of Bujinkan Dojo's if close. Both have their merits and (depending on the instructors) same techniques, just presented at different times in training. Good luck finding your way to the training that best suits you. Let us know what you find.

 

[stone_dragone]

Brian and Bydand, I appreciate the feedback. I've pretty much set my mind on beginning ninpo (whether it be Toshindo or Budo Taijutsu) at the earliest opportunity.


Then again, when I get to Alabama, I hear there's some school of ninjutsu that begins with a "K" there...

 

[MrFunnieman]

stone_dragone,

I used to work at the Dayton Quest Center and although the series is required reading, I don't think it represents To-shin do. If you want to learn ninpo, I would look for a good Bujinkan school or as bydand stated a Quest Center owner who makes trips to Japan regularly. I think students from either system could integrate or assimilate into one or the other, but they are two different animals.

My two cents

 

[lalom]

I agree with Mr. Funnieman. Although Mr. Hayes' books are required reading for each level up to Shodan in the To-Shin Do curriculum, To-Shin Do was structure obviously later than the books written.

There is nothing in BBT that isn't taught in To-Shin Do curriculum. To-Shin Do is solely structured differently and the techniques are learned at different stages/times in one's training than one who trains in BBT. Same end and destination, different beginning.

 

[saru1968]

There is nothing in BBT that isn't taught in To-Shin Do curriculum. To-Shin Do is solely structured differently and the techniques are learned at different stages/times in one's training than one who trains in BBT. Same end and destination, different beginning.

This conclusion is based on what?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

There is nothing in BBT that isn't taught in To-Shin Do curriculum. To-Shin Do is solely structured differently and the techniques are learned at different stages/times in one's training than one who trains in BBT. Same end and destination, different beginning.

I do not think that this is true! You see Sokes art is continually changing and evolving or he is showing us more of it. How many times has he said that you must train with him to stay current. To Shin Do is evolving to, just under Stephen Hayes direction. There are distinct differances between the two arts.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[lalom]

I do not think that this is true! You see Sokes art is continually changing and evolving or he is showing us more of it. How many times has he said that you must train with him to stay current. To Shin Do is evolving to, just under Stephen Hayes direction. There are distinct differances between the two arts.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

Agreed. There are definite distinctions between the arts. What I have noticed is that most BBT dojos I've been to teach the same things from the 9 schools. I find To-Shin Do doing the same thing.

 

[Bigshadow]

Agreed. There are definite distinctions between the arts. What I have noticed is that most BBT dojos I've been to teach the same things from the 9 schools. I find To-Shin Do doing the same thing.

I am not sure exactly how to read your post... What you described is an oxymoron. On a number of occasions, we have had TSD students come and train at our dojo (black belt level in TSD). What they did and their perception of what we do is very different, they had an entirely different feel.

So, there is a very real and very clear difference between the two. It is not the same. The only similarities IMO is the names of kamae and techniques.

 

[Dale Seago]

I am not sure exactly how to read your post... What you described is an oxymoron. On a number of occasions, we have had TSD students come and train at our dojo (black belt level in TSD). What they did and their perception of what we do is very different, they had an entirely different feel.

Ditto. A while back one of my black belts brought in a visitor, someone from the company he works for who was in town on business and who has been studying TSD in a different state.

On the way back to his hotel after class, the visitor asked my student, "Is this even the same art?!?"

 

[Jeremiah]

Like someone stated... It goes back to who the teacher is.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

Ditto. A while back one of my black belts brought in a visitor, someone from the company he works for who was in town on business and who has been studying TSD in a different state.

On the way back to his hotel after class, the visitor asked my student, "Is this even the same art?!?"

Strictly from an outsider's perspective, what I've seen online (admittedly photographs or short clips) of To Shin Do had more than a little MMA mixed in. Not knocking the art, simply stating that THIS outsider finds significant differences in both style, marketing, techniques and approach.

 

[lalom]

Like someone stated... It goes back to who the teacher is.

Who is this newbie? Already banned after one post?

 

[lalom]

I am not sure exactly how to read your post... What you described is an oxymoron. On a number of occasions, we have had TSD students come and train at our dojo (black belt level in TSD). What they did and their perception of what we do is very different, they had an entirely different feel.

So, there is a very real and very clear difference between the two. It is not the same. The only similarities IMO is the names of kamae and techniques.

I appologize. Please allow me to rephrase my opinion. To-Shin Do and BBT are similar, although very distinct. Distinct in structure and interpretation. Similar in that they are both teaching their expression of taijutsu from the 9 schools - thus similar in names and techniques. Both arts are evolving - seems apparent that as they evolve they are becoming more distinct from the other. I still do believe that both have the same end result and destination. Again, my opinion.

With regard to the original thread question: From what I've seen, Hayes' books are not exact representation of To-Shin Do today as I believe they are required reading for historical purposes for each practitioner to gain some insight as to the roots of the art.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Who is this newbie? Already banned after one post?

A member who was banned previously under a different name. Used to post here as Enson.

 

[cloud]

Having experience in the learning of Ninjutsu in both place I can definitely say that the two shares both similarities and distinction. Before I begin to say anything further please note that my experience is based on the instructor I have encounter and that each instructor are distinct in their knowledge and approach.


Toshindo is a modern application of primarily togakure and gyokko ryu since that is what master Hayes originally receive the license to teach in the 80's. It has now developed much further and I have no idea what else is thrown in there to make it work better for more people. The art is a growing art, constantly changing for the ever-evolving United State. Depending on the instructor, but primarily the student, the teacher will lend you the insight of ninpo; the philosohical aspect of ninja and how to use the way of shinobi to take control of your life and, depending on your level of skill, others.

BBT is a traditional approach to teach you the 9 ryu of ninjutsu Grandmaster Hatsumi inheritted. In BBT the greatest is technique is there is no technique. They they you formlessly, quickly changing from one kata to another to allow students to explore all the variation each technique has to offer. You are expect to perservere and learn what is there to offer by doing your own training. Students who expect the teacher to give you the answer will not find one. Only from here will the student learn the ninpo aspect by themselve.

Having been in both art, I personally do not believe that the two system will get you at the same destination simply because these are two methods of teaching. The method of movement, how the instructor help guide to enlightment, even the way each technique is carry out and executed, are very distinct in nature. Toshindo deals more with wide swing and people trying to club you while BBT deals with launch punch and how to deal with swords. One is totally elemental based (in toshindo you start from Earth, water, fire, wind and finally void) while the other emphasis on flowing without form, started out at void and try to understand other elements from there.

What will get you there will depends upon you; and with the two systems having such a diverse method of exploration of the core art, same principle it may be based on, you will most likely to end up at two distinct places.


Cloud

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

They they you formlessly, quickly changing from one kata to another to allow students to explore all the variation each technique has to offer.

We don't do that all the time, nor most of the time where I train regularly.

Toshindo deals more with wide swing and people trying to club you while BBT deals with launch punch and how to deal with swords.

This generalization is a bit too simplistic IMO.

 

[cloud]

We don't do that all the time, nor most of the time where I train regularly.



This generalization is a bit too simplistic IMO.

I am sorry for such a generalization but I tried to keep it short. Of course there are much more attack TSD and BBT deals with but if I were to reflect back these would be my first thought of each style. From where I train, the instructor places an extremely great emphasis on the formlessness and never even tell a student the name of any technique but that might jst be one dojo going to an extreme. I still enjoy both way regardless. It's certainly nice to explore

Cloud

 

[stephen]

Toshindo is a modern application of primarily togakure and gyokko ryu since that is what master Hayes originally receive the license to teach in the 80's.

???