simple reverse punch

[mastercole]

I think there is a belief with some people that to be an "elite" martial artist you have to have competed at a high level. This does not allow for martial arts not done for sport and the many people who have no interest in competing. Many elite martial artists have probably never competed in their life. Competition is not for everybody.

All martial arts are sports. Personally I am of the belief that if you train in a martial art, it would be wise to use the elite of your martial art as your training role model, and model their methods and skills. That does not mean that you have to compete to train like an elite athlete, you don't. But in order to be your best, it would be wise to train like the best.

Why train with mediocre methods and train to develop mediocre skills?

 

[mastercole]

If TKD was perceived as a super martial art, making its practitioner better in every outcome than an equally physically talented person trained in another style, we'd see everyone jump ship overnight and there would be an instant shortage of v-neck dobak.

True. Sadly, perception is not reality.

I've never been on the floor with an Olympic contender in an Olympic rules match.

Neither have I. I sparred with them in my dojang and other non-competition places, no referee, no time, no one to stop it but us. I do not recommend fighting them in an Olympic rules match knockouts are rough, and that was not what I was talking about at all.

I recommend, if given the chance to spar them, wherever, with the understand that you can go all out and do whatever, and they will do just what it takes. Enlightening experience for sure.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

All martial arts are sports. Personally I am of the belief that if you train in a martial art, it would be wise to use the elite of your martial art as your training role model, and model their methods and skills. That does not mean that you have to compete to train like an elite athlete, you don't. But in order to be your best, it would be wise to train like the best.

Why train with mediocre methods and train to develop mediocre skills?

How does this work with tkd, which is so diverse? For instance, I personally dont do much olympic style sparring and dont really understand the rules because its not something my training is geared towards. Are you suggesting that I should be testing my skills against elite wtf style sparring, to see where Im at and to learn from them even though its not what I do, or am interested in doing? I mean, I had to get on here and ask the sports guys recently for some ideas on counterig spin hook kicks, because its something I would virtually never come up against, yet for sports guys its a bread and butter kick. I totally understand your point when you are comparing apples to apples, in fact it makes a lot of sense, but elite wtf guys are elite "wtf" guys, what about tkdists that dont spar/train that way? I think the word tkd is just too vague these days, I can understand a shotokan guy pitting his skills against an elite shotokan guy, or bjj or boxing or muay thai, as they have the same rules etc, but tkd is just so varied accross the board.

 

[mastercole]

How does this work with tkd, which is so diverse? For instance, I personally dont do much olympic style sparring and dont really understand the rules because its not something my training is geared towards. Are you suggesting that I should be testing my skills against elite wtf style sparring, to see where Im at and to learn from them even though its not what I do, or am interested in doing? I mean, I had to get on here and ask the sports guys recently for some ideas on counterig spin hook kicks, because its something I would virtually never come up against, yet for sports guys its a bread and butter kick. I totally understand your point when you are comparing apples to apples, in fact it makes a lot of sense, but elite wtf guys are elite "wtf" guys, what about tkdists that dont spar/train that way? I think the word tkd is just too vague these days, I can understand a shotokan guy pitting his skills against an elite shotokan guy, or bjj or boxing or muay thai, as they have the same rules etc, but tkd is just so varied accross the board.

Hard to explain to you. It has more to do with something called "modern training methods". Again, I am versed in the type of sparring you do, well, and pretty much everything you do in Taekwondo, and what you call Olympic style. So I guess we could only really communicate well, in regard to what you do.

My recommendation is simply that you should go try it to get a feel for it. It's physical, not so academic, hard to type it all out here.

 

[Cyriacus]

Kyokushinkai fonder Mas Oyama spent a lot of time using the Makiwara. Makiwara is all about technique, conditioning is a buzz word that I do not put a lot of faith in. I would never recommend anyone punch a rock or kick a tree, there is zero reason to do that.

How many years have you spent on training on the Makiwara?

I never said that that is all they did, and I DID originally say that it was about Technique. Read the Original Reply.

Personally, I havent ever used one. Though I dont quite see how such a question came out of discussing the reasons why one would use a Makiwara, when I was mostly saying that since what Youre primarily gaining is proper technique, You dont NEED a Makiwara. The main difference is, that You can hit a Makiwara as hard as You can. With a solid object, You either need to hit it at full extention, or at not-full-power.

Im inclined to think that this is one of those discussions where We should Agree to Disagree.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Hard to explain to you. It has more to do with something called "modern training methods". Again, I am versed in the type of sparring you do, well, and pretty much everything you do in Taekwondo, and what you call Olympic style. So I guess we could only really communicate well, in regard to what you do.

My recommendation is simply that you should go try it to get a feel for it. It's physical, not so academic, hard to type it all out here.

I agree with what you are saying, and in most of my endevours (not just martial arts), I like to see how I go against the best so I can see where Im at. I seek out the best/elite in my form of tkd and regularly spar them (and get my *** kicked ), which I believe is good for my development. But me seeking out elite wtf guys to spar is probably as relevent as me seeking out elite kyokushin or boxing guys to spar, as far as what I do goes.

 

[mastercole]

I agree with what you are saying, and in most of my endevours (not just martial arts), I like to see how I go against the best so I can see where Im at. I seek out the best/elite in my form of tkd and regularly spar them (and get my *** kicked ), which I believe is good for my development. But me seeking out elite wtf guys to spar is probably as relevent as me seeking out elite kyokushin or boxing guys to spar, as far as what I do goes.

Cool.

 

[mastercole]

I never said that that is all they did, and I DID originally say that it was about Technique. Read the Original Reply.

Personally, I havent ever used one. Though I dont quite see how such a question came out of discussing the reasons why one would use a Makiwara, when I was mostly saying that since what Youre primarily gaining is proper technique, You dont NEED a Makiwara. The main difference is, that You can hit a Makiwara as hard as You can. With a solid object, You either need to hit it at full extention, or at not-full-power.

It's not about hitting the makiwara, it's about testing how deep you can go into the makiwara with your motion, not the hit. If you never used one, this might not make sense, it seems you are thinking that a makiwara is something to smack your hand against like a wall, so why not use a wall. It's not.

Using the makiwara is plyometrics for punching, it works all of your muscles related to the punch, which is a very different thing from punching a wall, they are not even related.

 

[Cyriacus]

It's not about hitting the makiwara, it's about testing how deep you can go into the makiwara with your motion, not the hit. If you never used one, this might not make sense, it seems you are thinking that a makiwara is something to smack your hand against like a wall, so why not use a wall. It's not.

Using the makiwara is plyometrics for punching, it works all of your muscles related to the punch, which is a very different thing from punching a wall, they are not even related.

Youre correct - My Conclusion still stands with that in mind, that its largely about Technique, but I was misunderstanding how the Makiwara is used exactly. I knew they moved back on contact, but I presumed that that was a feat of sheer force, rather than a part of the purpose of using them.
I might look around and see if anyone I know has one laying around, Im curious to feel how much resistance there is.
Thanks for the information!

 

[mastercole]

Youre correct - My Conclusion still stands with that in mind, that its largely about Technique, but I was misunderstanding how the Makiwara is used exactly. I knew they moved back on contact, but I presumed that that was a feat of sheer force, rather than a part of the purpose of using them.
I might look around and see if anyone I know has one laying around, Im curious to feel how much resistance there is.
Thanks for the information!

There is a solid type that mounts to a wall, in Korean arts I believe we call it a Kwon-go. The in-ground one you have to dig a hole in the ground and have the board milled to specs. There is a bunch of info on the net on how to get it done.

 

[Earl Weiss]

If a person only trained on the in-ground makiwara, and never punched anything else, that could possibly be a concern. However, for Taekwondo purposes, the makiwara at chest level is is perfect, that is where the hand wants to naturally align in a punch anyway. Add some bag work and application in live sparring and everything comes together nicely, at least that has been my experience.

True enough. Few MA training drills should be viewed as the exclusive method.
Perhaps I incorectly viewed teh OP as such.

" Personally, I think that the reverse punch, as trained on a makiwara, cannot be improved upon biomechanically. "
The wording could lead one to think that since it could be improved on no other training was neccessary.

 

[seasoned]

It's not about hitting the makiwara, it's about testing how deep you can go into the makiwara with your motion, not the hit. If you never used one, this might not make sense, it seems you are thinking that a makiwara is something to smack your hand against like a wall, so why not use a wall. It's not.

Using the makiwara is plyometrics for punching, it works all of your muscles related to the punch, which is a very different thing from punching a wall, they are not even related.

Just a side note, the rebound of the makiwara is as important as the hit. Once you have depth of strike, the rebound returns the hitter back to structure, not allowing the punch to over extend.

 

[Chris Parker]

All martial arts are sports. Personally I am of the belief that if you train in a martial art, it would be wise to use the elite of your martial art as your training role model, and model their methods and skills. That does not mean that you have to compete to train like an elite athlete, you don't. But in order to be your best, it would be wise to train like the best.

Why train with mediocre methods and train to develop mediocre skills?

What? Wow, no, not at all. This is just ludicrous to state, you realize.

 

[seasoned]

All martial arts are sports. Personally I am of the belief that if you train in a martial art, it would be wise to use the elite of your martial art as your training role model, and model their methods and skills. That does not mean that you have to compete to train like an elite athlete, you don't. But in order to be your best, it would be wise to train like the best.

Why train with mediocre methods and train to develop mediocre skills?

What? Wow, no, not at all. This is just ludicrous to state, you realize.

I will second this comment from Chris.

It is only sport if you think it is, "mind-set". How you train is the end result of the outcome.

 

[Chris Parker]

Then there's the wide variety of martial arts that have no sporting aspect to them whatsoever. The vast majority of Koryu, for instance. The various Ninjutsu organisations. Taichi. Meifu Shinkage Ryu. Aikido (aside from Tomiki). And so on, and so on, and so on....

 

[mastercole]

Just a side note, the rebound of the makiwara is as important as the hit. Once you have depth of strike, the rebound returns the hitter back to structure, not allowing the punch to over extend.

There are several different methods of using the makiwara. One is to lock the body into position and stance holding against the rebound for a second or so. The other is to stand in a natural stance and relaxed state, having your hand penetrate into the resistance with an immediate withdrawal of the hand back to the natural stance and relaxed state. With each rep the user is exploring various degrees of penetration and trying to relax the body more and more.

Both methods have the resistance of the spring back. The first pushes against it and as it rebound builds, holds against it. The second pushes against it and quickly escapes.

 

[mastercole]

What? Wow, no, not at all. This is just ludicrous to state, you realize.

Ludicrous.......... very nice!

 

[mastercole]

Then there's the wide variety of martial arts that have no sporting aspect to them whatsoever. The vast majority of Koryu, for instance. The various Ninjutsu organisations. Taichi. Meifu Shinkage Ryu. Aikido (aside from Tomiki). And so on, and so on, and so on....

I never really communicated with a real ninja before, they really seem to know a lot of stuff about every martial arts. Thanks for all the details

 

[jks9199]

Let's all try to avoid taking personal shots at each other, OK? Aren't the shots supposed to be reserved for the makiwara, whatever name you give it?

In other words, since I've come to the conclusion that several members can't take a hint...

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Keep the conversation polite and respectful.

jks9199
Asst. Administrator

 

[puunui]

If TKD was the magic bullet, everyone would be training in it.

Aren't they?