Should the Govt. License MA Instructors?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by geezer, Feb 23, 2009.

  1. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons A Student of Martial Arts

    • Advisor
    • Founding Member
    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2001
    Messages:
    15,766
    Likes Received:
    427
    Trophy Points:
    208
    Location:
    Michigan
    Board(B): Mr. Parsons do you belong to a recognized organization for Modern Arnis?

    Parsons(P): No, I am independant.

    (B): Mr. Parsons do you belong to an organization for Balintawak?

    (P): No, I do not as my instructor did not and the founder of the art was his instructor.

    (B): Do you have certificates for your Rank from Modern Arnis?

    (P): I have some of them as my Ex-wife burned some during the divorce process.

    (B): So, you have no proof os some of your rank? You know this is suspcious. Right?

    (P): Yes.

    *** Here my Friend Bob steps up and says that he can provide certificates just likes those found on EBAY that started theother thread and then this thread. Of course Bob's would look better and have higher ranking and pretty titles and cost more. :D

    (P): SHHHH Bob I am trying to get through this.
    ***

    (B): Do you have your certificates for rank in Balintawak?

    (P): Sir, my instructor does not believe in certificates, as each person has to be able to back up what they claim and or say. His instructor did not hand them out so neither does he.

    (B): *** One smart member trying to help me out *** Can you bring your instructor in for him to testify to your claim to be able to teach?

    (P): No, I cannot as he has had a stroke and cannot communicate. :(

    (B): How long have you been in the martial arts?

    (P): I have been in the arts for 23 years

    (B): So Mr. Parsons you have missing paperwork in one art. You have no paperwork in another art. You instructors are either Dead or unable to communicate. Is this correct?

    (P): Yes.

    (B): Mr. Parsons are you sure you are serious and you are not just wasting our time?

    (P): No, I am only trying to follow the law so I can teach and continue to help the few students I may have in my life time so that they can teach in the future and the art survive.

    (B): *** Lots of head shaking and wispering ***

    (P): *** Lots of sweating and worrying about the boards decision ***

    (B): Mr Parsons, you understand that we usually take time to deliberate and discuss this and then publish our results at a later date.

    (P): Yes I understand.

    (B): But given the data we have in front of us, we cannot, in good conscious waste our time on this.

    (B): Request for License Denied.

    (P): Stops teaching and wonders if anything is worth the time anymore.

    *****

    Mean while next(N) person gets up:

    (B): *** Same Questions as above ***
    (N): I have my Certs right here. I have come from a school with an organization of 50 schools and I have been training for 3 years and want to open my own school.

    (B): Approved as you seem to have all your requirements in hand while "others" do not.


    ********************************************************

    I might be negative on this issue, but this is what I can imagine happening real easily. So, and others would just stop teaching in the open. We might teach one or two people but all illegally of course.
     
  2. Carol

    Carol Crazy like a...

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2006
    Messages:
    20,311
    Likes Received:
    540
    Trophy Points:
    248
    Location:
    NH
    It is not conflicting requirements. The first is a news release. The second link that Bill posted referenced the proper statute. Which, btw, uses the word "shall". ;) :D

    Source:

    http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/XXXI/358-S/358-S-mrg.htm
     
  3. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,510
    Likes Received:
    2,521
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Michigan
    You can imagine it, but that doesn't make it so - and the history of local licensing of various professions does not bear that out.

    As to quitting if you have be licensed, so mote it be.

    I note that most people who promised to 'leave the country' after various elections seem not to have done so. I would tentatively predict that most martial arts instructors who wanted to continue to operate would comply with local licensing laws. People who threaten the loudest to do a Cartman just seem the least likely to actually do it.
     
  4. Gordon Nore

    Gordon Nore Senior Master

    Joined:
    May 26, 2007
    Messages:
    2,118
    Likes Received:
    77
    Trophy Points:
    108
    Location:
    Toronto
    Agreed.

    Beyond this general sort of compliance comes the issue of standards. First off, I think teachers who requires an unusually longer time in grade would be orphaned by the system. Whether or not licensing is intrusive, I don't see it as being terribly effective or equitable. What does one do the rest of the time if one is ripped off or deceived -- call a lawyer, the BBB, or the Chamber of Commerce.
     
  5. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,510
    Likes Received:
    2,521
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Michigan
    I can see such a thing.

    What if the requirements for licensing were more along the lines of:

    * Background check for criminal convictions or current warrants.
    * Holder of current first-aid certification, such as Red Cross CPR.
    * A clause to enable licensing authority to revoke such licensing, based on good cause and due process, as many professional licensing systems do.

    Would such a licensing system ensure that a martial arts teacher was qualified to teach martial arts? No. But it would serve several important functions, which would in turn serve the public interest.

    None of those will result in removing a person from teaching, nor will it close a business, unless economically bankrupted by a lawsuit. Revoking a required license would have that effect.
     
  6. Kreth

    Kreth Grandmaster

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2003
    Messages:
    6,980
    Likes Received:
    86
    Trophy Points:
    158
    Location:
    Oneonta, NY
    You can have a criminal conviction from something as simple as a bounced check. Should that be sufficient to exclude you from becoming licensed?
     
  7. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,510
    Likes Received:
    2,521
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Michigan
    I don't think so. But why imagine up a list of reasons why a criminal background check would not work? Such a list could be tailored to something that makes sense - say sexual assault convictions, violent crimes, that sort of thing.
     
  8. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2006
    Messages:
    29,682
    Likes Received:
    4,315
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Location:
    North American Tectonic Plate
    Interesting question

    Driving in Massachusetts while under the drinking age with someone that is of age in your car that is not your parent or legal guardian and having any alcohol in the car is a crime called "Minor Transporting". NYS it is nothing at all as long as the container is not open. Now how would the effect this if you lived and wanted to teach in NY but were convicted in Ma.
     
  9. Guardian

    Guardian Black Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2007
    Messages:
    628
    Likes Received:
    21
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Wichita Falls, Texas

    At one point in time, I would have said oh heck no, not in this life time. Bill Mattocks here makes some valid points on licensing of various professional careers/jobs. Though some are not Governmental licenses per say, they are professional licenses from professional organizations which does not lend much credence to that wiring credibility for your room LOL. A license it is no less.

    I would venture to say that a State License over a Federal might be a safer and less intrusive way to go as with states that sanction boxing events (not saying events, just using this as a comparison). This license could cost as little as say $50 a year and some benefits that could be derived from that is you would be listed in State Associations and Licensing Bureaus and such, advertisement per say.

    Just a thought folks.
     
  10. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons A Student of Martial Arts

    • Advisor
    • Founding Member
    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2001
    Messages:
    15,766
    Likes Received:
    427
    Trophy Points:
    208
    Location:
    Michigan

    And posting a reply to everyone to make sure YOUR point is told over and over does not make it true either.

    Show me one piece of data that even comes close to what you are saying in reference to martial arts?

    My life experience with the "SYSTEM" may be different from others, but is just as valid as anyone else.

    My point is that your point has no more validity than mine.

    My point has no more validity than yours.

    Making it over and over, only is a trick that is used to get people used to an idea so when it happens they are not surprised by it.

    Tell someone they suck enough and they believe it.

    Tell someone they are never wrong and guess what they begin to think they are never wrong.
     
  11. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,510
    Likes Received:
    2,521
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Michigan
    Sorry, Rich, I've just been making conversation. I can see you're getting angry. Take care, I'm all done and won't bother you again.
     
  12. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons A Student of Martial Arts

    • Advisor
    • Founding Member
    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2001
    Messages:
    15,766
    Likes Received:
    427
    Trophy Points:
    208
    Location:
    Michigan
    Carol,

    Bill Mattock's initial Post on the issue we seem not to be able to communicate on:

    My Post which reference the first link:



    With in that first link:
    Where in this sentence does it say required? It says reminded.

    This quote above from same link is the second sentence that does say require.


    Above in my quote I said Reminded not Required.

    My point then and now is that it is not clear.

    Under what a reasonable man should be able to be expected to understand and follow. What would the reasonable man do if he is only reminded to do something. It is like homework. One is reminded to do it. One is not required to do it. Are their consequences for not doing it? Yes. But required and reminded do not equal. There is confusion.

    My point was that to the initial post that these links were supposed to be clear and concise points of data to "SHOW" the point of the initial poster that Licenses should be done and here is why.

    I think you missed the first sentence which was my point for the confusion.

    Here I bring up the confusion, but it seems not to be enough. So I guess I have to be wrong. Fine my point is invalid because you look at one sentence and I look at the other. When this whole confusion was my point in the first place. But I guess I am not communicating well.


    Yes it does contain the word "SHALL"

    First two usages of SHALL
    Third usage of SHALL
    Here is the fourth usage of SHALL
    And the above does state that one SHALL file if they plan on having a martial arts business.

    The fifth usage :
    It is the responsibility of the person filing to maintain the record.

    The next usage:
    This one is nice. As a $50,000 bond is required to be posted by the person filing. Do Plumbers and Professional Engineers have to post a BOND as well?


    The next usage talks about the exceptions:
    So the Bond is not required if the DoJ "feels" like it. What if the DoJ is never satisfied?


    The next usage:
    This is the legal wording about handling monies obtained before operation has begun. Also how to handle refunds.


    The next usage:
    This is how to handle the contract to the person purchasing the service or training will know what the contract sates.

    The next usage:
    More legal wording

    The next usage:
    This handles the buyers remorse clause.



    I concede the second link does use SHALL. But, my point was that in the first it should have used SHALL file and not remind nor required nor both as they are confusing.
     
  13. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons A Student of Martial Arts

    • Advisor
    • Founding Member
    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2001
    Messages:
    15,766
    Likes Received:
    427
    Trophy Points:
    208
    Location:
    Michigan

    I am not angry.

    I am just making a point.
     
  14. Carol

    Carol Crazy like a...

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2006
    Messages:
    20,311
    Likes Received:
    540
    Trophy Points:
    248
    Location:
    NH
    Sorry Rich, its not what the Department of Justice feels like...note the statute also uses the word "shall". ;)

    In the first section, community, non-profits, etc. are exempted from registering and by definition exempt from the bond requirements.

    This one is quite simple. If your membership fees are month-to-month only, you don't have to provide a bond.

    This is for the schools that insist on using contracts. Remember, no contract = no bond.

    Realistically, no school that insists on using contracts is going to be able to prove that their refund liability is less than 5,000 unless their tuition is far below market rate, or they don't have many students and can demonstrate they won't have many students

    The intent is clear...the point of the law is NOT to discourage martial arts instruction, it is to discourage schools from entering binding contracts without having a surety bond that will protect the consumer from loss of services paid for if the school goes belly up.
     
  15. Kreth

    Kreth Grandmaster

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2003
    Messages:
    6,980
    Likes Received:
    86
    Trophy Points:
    158
    Location:
    Oneonta, NY
    Meh, it's NH. What's the population there, like 47? :lol:
     
  16. KempoGuy06

    KempoGuy06 Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2006
    Messages:
    6,612
    Likes Received:
    26
    Trophy Points:
    158
    Location:
    Louisville, KY
    i agree

    B
     
  17. JadeDragon3

    JadeDragon3 Black Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2007
    Messages:
    575
    Likes Received:
    10
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Lexington, Kentucky
    KempoGuy......where in Louisville do you live? I'm in Lexington. Ever make it down this way?
     
  18. Carol

    Carol Crazy like a...

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2006
    Messages:
    20,311
    Likes Received:
    540
    Trophy Points:
    248
    Location:
    NH
    Yup. ;) But its a state that not big in to regulations. I mean....regulations...that's for states with income tax. And sales tax. :lol2:
     
  19. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2006
    Messages:
    29,682
    Likes Received:
    4,315
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Location:
    North American Tectonic Plate
    And you get 47 insanely happy people..... DAMN, if I could just convince the wife we could make it 51 :D
     
  20. Kreth

    Kreth Grandmaster

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2003
    Messages:
    6,980
    Likes Received:
    86
    Trophy Points:
    158
    Location:
    Oneonta, NY
    And subsequently funds to pay for roads. Seriously, your state flag should have a washed-out road on it. :lol:

    Um, XS? Generally the voices in your head don't get tallied in the census. :p
     

Share This Page