Shotokan for self defence.

[ShotoNoob]

There is a local boxing club that used to come to our dojang, until the Y put a stop to it for liability reasons.
If our students boxed theirs, they got smacked around. As soon as kicking is introduced, their students got smacked around. This should not be a real shocker to most people.

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You couldn't have captured better on how I DO NOT TRAIN.... That doesn't mean this same experience doesn't take place in karate dojo when boxing stylists visit or join.....
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Traditional karate is capable of transcending physical style or technique.... and that's what provides the superior martial foundation over boxing for self defense....
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EDIT: RAFA, nice vid on Shotokan body/mind mechanics. Appears like Andre BErtel or look-alike....

 

[Tez3]

On karate, I was specifically speaking to the more conventional ways of training, the sport karate fighter, as having trouble

Er, have you ever watched full contact 'sports' karate fighters? Somehow I don't think so if you think they would have difficulty with boxers. I think you are thinking of points sparring.

 

[RTKDCMB]

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I don't have to do anything. And that's the issue. A vested interested here can't make a general statement or venture an overall opinion. You could have shown a courtesy, yet choose not to....

You asked me a question and I asked you for more details so that I could know what the heck you were talking about. If you don't want to be specific then don't complain to me if you don't get an answer.

 

[RafaChan]

Like karate master don't speak metaphotically, or doing so to highlight a concept or it's importance.

And you know that masters doing that are quite often misunderstood, rite? Specially for those in our modern fast-food mentality days...(including us)

Theres no one to blame... People nowadays like info already all stripped and exposed in its contents coz all around they are being bombarded constantly and by that they are often not in too much getting any effort to think by theirselves in a more, lets say, metaphoric or subjective way... (Maybe going to the cross with you now) ...

The bad side of this kind of more objective aproach all the time IMO, its that quite often takes away the personal capacitie of each others different conclusions and responses to fit in their different realities. Coz we have to work in a more particular conclusion and not being limited by one pre-stablished... And IMO that have its benefits...

That example again: When you said ''out-think'' the boxer in that said case, that could be that one have to work more in kicks for you but for me could be mess with the boxer balance ashi bara-ing and kuzushi waza-ing him, while for other person the conclusion could maybe be both or even more... And thats a good thing coz everyone can complete each other gaps in a more constructive way.

Besides that, the time factor its even scarce to make such kind of more comprehensive and in depth interpretations... IMO theres no need of peoples getting a grudge around...

Rafa, bad Shotonoob here should let you do the talking..... NICE Treatise by the way...

Well thank you... You are not a bad guy... I can see your efforts lately to be ''less agressive'' and ''less metaphorical'' but maybe will help more in the construction of this topic if you could be even more specific/objective ?

That way i wont be having the need to make a treatise, maybe? Or maybe its just me, i really like to explain things assuming that maybe a person outside the thread that doesnt have zero idea about karate its going to read the text and wont be getting lost...

Well, i dont know you IRL but i can say you are a good guy, a very spirited one btw, and i like that... Im not asking for you to be another guy, but just asking for you to adapt...
Its not that we MAs do when the fight its getting out of our control ? We just breath in and out deeply relaxing and start to adapt to the opponent...

Do you think anyone other than "username redacted" will read it?

Oh yes... Its on a free forum on the internet anyways...

Peace bro ! Keep going (posting)...

 

[RafaChan]

NO, RAFA.... the guy or 2 on the east coast & one in Britain claim it's getting together & PHYSICALLY punching the heck out of one another other.... Not that that doesn't work...

These can be getting all packed and backed up together but with, lets say, different intensities. And each of that can works its ways as you soundly stated. The more focus and importance some one gave separatedly in each one of those aspects could vary accordingly to each ones faith-judgement-experiences-reality-limits...

Like sensei Kase once stated when in comparison of two of his old masters:

''Yoshitaka was more physical karateka and Okuyama caught his energy from somewhere else...''

I put up some commentary that frankly is explicitly stated in the Shotokan karate manual(s) & in the writings of traditional Shotokan karate masters. Amazing the resistance to realizing there's some great emphasis on the mental dimension in martial applications, that mental activity is a separately definable component of the human entity.... RAFA.... carry on.....

Will be better not to firmly expect to full fill others views and expectations that way, besides i find that valid and do the same way, but i just dont expect much.
I dont know if you will agree with me on this but in the end its every one looking at the same old truths but using a lot of different perspectives.

And thats why karate all around have being divided in so manny branches, ryus and styles (even the traditionalists ones), each one of them with their own particular aproach and lecture of the same old fundamentals.

 

[ShotoNoob]

These can be getting all packed and backed up together but with, lets say, different intensities. And each of that can works its ways as you soundly stated. The more focus and importance some one gave separatedly in each one of those aspects could vary accordingly to each ones faith-judgement-experiences-reality-limits...

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1. Every TMA school I've been to acknowledges the physical effort, the need for actual sparring.... Obviously the intensity varies with the commercial demands of the clientele. Everyone is free to select a school that ranges from recreational Shotokan to full contact Shotokan or substitute another style such a Muay Thai to practice their karate skills on in a resisting, contact environment....
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2. With traditional karate, there is an opportunity for building a base no offered by physical-centered training, Straight Blast Gym, etc, etc.... The caveat is that you have to recognize the opportunity afforded by the Masters who formulated traditional karate.... I firmly believe that many in America have taken the concept of football full contact with rules, applied that football mentality to Shotokan karate, karates, and came up with some full contact kickboxing-in-the-aegis-of-karate practice. I think one is better off going the Matt Thornton Straight Blast Gym route from the outset than morphing karate into football or vice versa.... That's my Ariel Hwani[sic] view....

Like sensei Kase once stated when in comparison of two of his old masters:

''Yoshitaka was more physical karateka and Okuyama caught his energy from somewhere else...''

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Well, any serious student of traditional karate would realize the differing theorems of styles of producing power for marital purposes.... There are differences put forth in the external body mechanics alone.... Here IMHO, Shotokan generally tends to employ heavy physical force, heavy muscular action. I think Shotokan is at the extreme in this end, at least in the black-belt level curriculum. Other traditional karate styles employ less use of rigid physical force. Perhaps the "kime" vids you've posted advocate such examples.... I think so....

Will be better not to firmly expect to full fill others views and expectations that way, besides i find that valid and do the same way, but i just dont expect much.
I dont know if you will agree with me on this but in the end its every one looking at the same old truths but using a lot of different perspectives.

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I'll say again, 'cause the focus is on "magical" shotonoob, you can practice a "modern" (re K-MAN) karate like Shotokan 2 ways:
A. Recreationally, the commercially popular
B. Physically, the conventionally popular
C. Mentally, the traditionally correct.

And thats why karate all around have being divided in so manny branches, ryus and styles (even the traditionalists ones), each one of them with their own particular approach and lecture of the same old fundamentals.

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Sure. All the Japanese Masters, starting in Okinawa, seeking to truly understand the Chinese TMA origins applicability to their own culture, put their own interpretation, their own stamp into the numerous styles.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Er, have you ever watched full contact 'sports' karate fighters? Somehow I don't think so if you think they would have difficulty with boxers. I think you are thinking of points sparring.

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OK tez, here's the best example of the aggressive, senior-belt who decided to punch my face in @ testing. Ya know, the one I defeated in the first exchange? I'm not in professional MMA like you so please afford me a little license to present a junior-league r.... Garbrandt is the guy who resembles my the senior-belt--the one with the darker skin & tatoos. Almost a to a T in physicality, taller, larger, stronger than me. Aggressive in your face, demeanor. I'd be more like Mazzotta--the opponent in white shorts, not so aggressive outwardly, I'm smaller though. NOTE: Jack up the weights 35 lbls.

Interestingly, Mazzotta is reported to have extensive standup experience in TKD. In this bout, he's also got some decent ground skills, IMO. Certainly better than me. Mazzotta dioes very well in Round 1. He's not afraid to engage & exchange with the more aggressive Garbrandt. Mazzotta has a very good state of mental clarity in that he keeps his calm, and the announcers point this out. They both do a silly egging on near the end of Round 1, a cardinal sin of traditional karate. So what's the problem?
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Mazzotta, for all his TMA / TKD, shows absolutely zero ability to exhibit the foundational karate skills in the basic kata, Taikyoku, or Kicho Hyung in TSD.... He's simply kickboxing, hoping to out physical his opponent with punches & kicks. Garbrandt same. Trouble is for Mazzotta, Garbrant is better @ tactics.... Garbrandt uses his head more tactically. So when Garbrandt ramps up in Round 2, which Mazzotta attempts as well--he's tough mentally as you ascribe, he gets a horrible KO by Garbrandt.
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Mazzotta gets KO'd when he kicks. But it's not because he has the trite criticism of TKD about not using his hands... .he does well in round 1. IMO, It's because he doesn't have any traditional TKD / karate practice in that fatal kick attempt. I repeat, Mazzotta is not intimidated @ all by Garbrandt--the athletic mental toughness. The reason mAZZOTTA FAILS is there is a whole package of skills in the Kicho Huyng / kata and Mazzotta fails to present the package, or really any part of it.
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The vid is long, sorry about that. Fight starts @ 9:13. Round 2 @ 15.25 KO occurs @ 15.47; with nice replays after that... So what do you do when you initial technique against a bar bully prompts a vicious right punch to your face? Garbrant's technical execution is perfect. I take the page right out of Ippon Kumite, there's a Tang Soo do version I came across that is directly applicable...
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The mental discipline key is you have to be prepared to move the instant your opponent move's >> here Garbrant with a looping overhand right cross.... In this case, I would not use a defensive hand technique move first because Garbrant has moved his head (ya know that much vaunted head movement that fools everyone.) Generally speaking I would move directly in on Garbrandt as he punches Right (Unlike K-Man who moves back first--where is K-Man, is he on the phone with RTK?) and follow through with the hand strike(s) following the kick (that Mazzotta used turned out worse than useless.)
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I didn't spell out the precise move 'cause you guys all pan ippon kumite for REAL fighting. Like FN70, they are all over YT. The key foundational skill that makes this work, however, is the "mental clarity" afforded by traditional Shotokan / karate training, particularly kata, but starting with kihon. Not the tough-guy "mental clarity" that Mazzotta displayed, though both valuable & admirable, a complete disaster by itself when the SD chips were down on Garbrandt's explosive move....
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Against the aggressive senior belt in class testing, I first employed a defensive hand block because that was the (one of) correct KIME against the specific form of his attack. The opponent here, Garbrandt combined a shifting, lowering head move in conjunction with his right punch which also altered the trajectory of his right punch, which then dictates other KIME.
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Matt Thorton / Straight Blast Gym says this can't be done.... The trick is to back up / duck & cover, etc.... Not what i did in the least.... My head & chin were moving ahead & totally upright....just like all of traditional karate practice. The senior belt who was rolling over most all the students like Garbrant over Mazzotta was completely flummoxed.... The 2nd degree black-belt who was working with me ran over to congratulate me; the 3rd degree black-belt assisting the visiting Master that day in charge of testing > later shook my hand. That's how it works....
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Are others capable of doing this? Like RTK deciding not to answer my query..... It's entirely possible, yet equally up to them////
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Best of luck with that (& to connor against Chad Mendes--shotonoob is rooting for connor MG @ UFC 189 on July 11....(tez).

 

[ShotoNoob]

And so, I'm not going to out-muscle Garbarndt (or Romero), or out box him by alternatively trading punches/ kicks [with some explosviely, aggressive opponent completely devoted to the glory of taking my head off-DA.] ..... I'm going to OUT THINK him.... in the traditional karate fashion (al a kihon technique, kata form, ippon kumite application) so dynamic he won't be able to react.... and instead it's over for him....
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Shotokan karate done as a mental discipline is highly effective for self defense....

 

[DaveB]

You forgot to mention what it was you actually did other than move forwards with your head up.

Perhaps if you describe what you did, posters might better understand how you out-thought this senior black belt and how you would have out-thought Garbrant (who, by the way, was the same size as the opponent he beat in your video), and how you take these skills from Taikyoku Shodan.

 

[Tez3]

OK tez, here's the best example of the aggressive, senior-belt who decided to punch my face in @ testing.

I take it we can now all post videos of professional fights to show people how we fight?

What is it with you and Matt Thornton, SBG and MMA? We are discussing Shookan yet time after time you bring this up, ok we get the 'liveness' training stuff but really we seem to be going over and over MMA.

I'm a karateka, have been for a very long time, not Shotokan but Wado Ryu, I train Bunkai, I train MMA as well but really can we just discuss Shotokan for defence instead of it being some sort of weird MMA thread?

 

[DaveB]

Shotokan as a fighting style, (distinct from training paradigm) does have a number of strengths in relation to self defense.

Shotokan's core techniques are very versatile but at heart they are large simple and natural movements.

Large movements are good because fine motor skills I.e small, intricate movements become much harder to do when adrenaline hits your system. So should a fight whip up quickly and surprise you, big simple arm movements will still work for you.

Shotokan's movements and stances are natural body positions that are refined to maximise balance and power transfer. When I teach people front stance, I make them push something immovable as hard as they can. That gets them aligning the skeleton and distributing their weight correctly and by either pushing back or removing the resistance they settle into a balanced zenkutsudachi.

This more a training point but it is relevant. Because of the basis in natural but correct and balanced body use, transcending the exaggerated training postures is that much easier but the strength and stability gained from their use remain.

Traditional Shotokan places a strong emphasis on body motion which both adds to impact power while making avoiding weapons more natural.

Koryu Shotokan (ie with an emphasis on applying kata and developing more rounded skill sets), builds strong control techniques to disable an opponent without needing space.

Most of the negatives in relation to self defense are to do with the training culture. Most Shotokan karateka don't progress beyond doing everything in long stances and needing lots of space to fight in.
There is usually little impact training leading to sprained wrists in real fights.
Often there is an over focus on theory and the single blow.

But ultimately self defense is much more than martial skills. There are elements of awareness, law, risk assessment, safety tactics like how to get up, how to run... Virtually none of which is commonly taught in a martial arts class.

 

[RafaChan]

Every TMA school I've been to acknowledges the physical effort, the need for actual sparring.... Obviously the intensity varies with the commercial demands of the clientele. Everyone is free to select a school that ranges from recreational Shotokan to full contact Shotokan or substitute another style such a Muay Thai to practice their karate skills on in a resisting, contact environment....

Shoto, that highlighted stated IMO its often, if not always, dictated not by the students in the gyms or dojos, but this is on the level of decision of instructors and organizations/associations... Mostly pre-stablished in a historical context by JKA (most notedly after master Gigos death). So its much more a historical impost thing than a matter of everyone is free for the choice...

In my posts i surely can agree with you and have said that the heavily sportive focus regarding the art effectivenes in SD will let it a lot in detrimental. But when you do your talk somewhat constantly bashing spar, kumite and matt thortons its like you are blaming people for that and making them looking bad and feeling miserable. IMO thats why you have being accused of extremist...

And the other thing i still didnt get its: If you talk so bad about kumite and spar why you do those like you told above ?

Maybe you will answer: But i do it using the mental dimension working... (wich i higly agree), but so, we can conclude that the more sportive aproach (spar,kumite) can have its benefits rite? in develop those...(wich i can agree too)...

So why the need to be constantly bashing those ?

Well, any serious student of traditional karate would realize the differing theorems of styles of producing power for marital purposes.... There are differences put forth in the external body mechanics alone.... Here IMHO, Shotokan generally tends to employ heavy physical force, heavy muscular action. I think Shotokan is at the extreme in this end, at least in the black-belt level curriculum. Other traditional karate styles employ less use of rigid physical force. Perhaps the "kime" vids you've posted advocate such examples.... I think so....

Yes you are right about that... Sensei rick hotton on those vids ive found by coincidence when i typed shuto uke in YT trying to illustrate someone performing the tech with the right kime...IMO too hes one living example of shotokan people using the right aproach that doesnt make them over rigid and tense movement exagerated. If anyone wanna know more info of him ill recommend this link wich i have found pretty good:

Shotokan Karate Magazine - Training with Rick Hotton Sensei in Manchester UK.

In 20 years from here where i started, i can see a sensible increase of the ammount of people in shotokan using that ''hard and soft'' physical-mental concepts in their practices... At least in my area/state that was not and still not very common... Thats why i regard the right aplications of those aspects being so special to me...As far as i know, those concepts were always in goju-ryu from their chinese roots...

I still see in here in a lot of shotokan dojos, instructors that can make people performs like living statues, all over rigid, contracted and over tense... I started my martial and karate practice in my childhood and ill tell you my understandment and comprehension were zero to could make something about that regard in those times...

Posting in here a preview of an informative link on that matter that could lead to mind blowing conclusions for those who wanna goes deep on that matter:

''So the younger students trained with contraction not because they were taught to do it this way, rather because they thought contraction was the right way to do strong techniques..Yoshitaka (Gigo) Funakoshi sensei, O-sensei's son, took over the instruction in 1932, after Takeshi Shimoda sensei died of influenza (Layton, 1997, Egami, 1976). Considering the fact he was very ill (tuberculosis and later lung gangrene) and actually living on borrowed time, he seems to have been very uncompromising and at times emphasized strong training. This together with a militaristic spirit that prevailed in the late thirties and the first half of of the 40's may have been the reason in part for the tense and staccato movements encountered within sports karate groups (contraction styles) nowadays.

In any case, research was begun by Master Shimoda, he started to develop low karate stances and continued by Yoshitaka Funakoshi with a small group of students, among them Shigeru Egami and Genshin Hironishi (Layton, 1997; Cattel, 1989; Egami, 1973; Tokitsu, 199?). Karate-do evolved as a result of their discoveries, stances became more natural with respect to body mechanics and free from unnecessary tensions, this is clearly noticeable when we observe the front stance (zenkutsu-dachi). Leg position is natural, without strange and uncomfortable twists, the hip and the torso is placed in half-facing position (hanmi) and the back leg is in a natural bent position. These types of changes were done to all techniques and new ones were also developed by Gigo Funakoshi sensei and his research group, such as mawashi geri, yoko geri kekomi, ushiro geri, ura mawashi geri, fudo-dachi, etc (Anonynous, 1983, Layton, 1997; Harada, 1983; Cattel, 1989; Noble, 1985).''

Source: Another Way the way of non-tension relaxation in Karate-do

 

[RafaChan]

The mental discipline key is you have to be prepared to move the instant your opponent move's >> here Garbrant with a looping overhand right cross.... In this case, I would not use a defensive hand technique move first because Garbrant has moved his head (ya know that much vaunted head movement that fools everyone.) Generally speaking I would move directly in on Garbrandt as he punches Right (Unlike K-Man who moves back first--where is K-Man, is he on the phone with RTK?) and follow through with the hand strike(s) following the kick (that Mazzotta used turned out worse than useless.)
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I didn't spell out the precise move 'cause you guys all pan ippon kumite for REAL fighting. Like FN70, they are all over YT. The key foundational skill that makes this work, however, is the "mental clarity" afforded by traditional Shotokan / karate training, particularly kata, but starting with kihon. Not the tough-guy "mental clarity" that Mazzotta displayed, though both valuable & admirable, a complete disaster by itself when the SD chips were down on Garbrandt's explosive move....
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Against the aggressive senior belt in class testing, I first employed a defensive hand block because that was the (one of) correct KIME against the specific form of his attack. The opponent here, Garbrandt combined a shifting, lowering head move in conjunction with his right punch which also altered the trajectory of his right punch, which then dictates other KIME.
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Matt Thorton / Straight Blast Gym says this can't be done.... The trick is to back up / duck & cover, etc.... Not what i did in the least.... My head & chin were moving ahead & totally upright....just like all of traditional karate practice. The senior belt who was rolling over most all the students like Garbrant over Mazzotta was completely flummoxed.... The 2nd degree black-belt who was working with me ran over to congratulate me; the 3rd degree black-belt assisting the visiting Master that day in charge of testing > later shook my hand. That's how it works....

Nice Shoto, congratz. Well... I probably have got the idea about that fast fight (spar/kumite) of yours (i hope that was not the only one), and ill point out for you the possible flaws that i can see in the intensive use of that aproach...

Regarding mental dimension, you are using the old and good advanced concept of irimi...Thats the taikyoku spirit you are talking about... always forward...

Ill save myself (maybe) in the making of another ''thesis'' here ... From the wikepedia:

''In Japanese martial arts, Irimi(入り身?) is the act of entering straight into a technique, as opposed to the more indirect entrance into technique called tenkan. In basic training, irimi usually looks like a step forward, straight or at an angle but usually ending with the body facing the attacker, rather than in the direction of the step. To enter with irimi, the defender needs to move in the very moment of the attack or even himself initiate it... Irimi involves entering deeply around or behind an attack to defuse or neutralize the attack. The concept of irimi teaches one to blend with or enter into an opponent’s attack to become one with the opponent’s movement and leaving the opponent with nowhere to strike.[3] This movement is utilized during the moment of the opponent’s attack. To complete the movement, one moves out of the opponent's line of attack to the opponent’s shikaku, or blind spot. When executed properly, one can strike an opponent with great force, combining his attacking momentum and one's forward movement.''

Well, i have seen a lot of people getting KO'ed that way in all the places from the street to dojos, rings and so... It really have a high KO rate coz of the above highlighted characteristics... but its just like that... even from the start its a high risk high reward movement...but still, you can miss it, or the guy can swing/move head to evade/neutralize your punch force...the risk is there...

IMO thats a kind of advanced tactic besides its very simple in aplication but what makes it really a challenge its that the karateka must really have good and sharp/keen senses/reflexes...be fast, strong and most important... precise...

Some old masters former students of M Funakoshi even attests that ''karate doesnt have first strike'' principle idea its all about applying that irimi...

Not saying that its bad to use or that i myself never have used... Its highly recommended to abuse of it on a kumite/spar situation, coz its a controlled enviroment afterall, but for SD it have its risks... so the practitioner have to be pretty aware of those risks...

But lets see the possible bad out comes and draw backs of that if some one decide to use that aproach on a real SD situation...

I would point out one main problem with that:

If you happens to know the guy you are fighting its a dedicated grappler or a striker that will be better - know your enemy - often chances are that this will not be possible in probably most SD situations when you just simply doesnt know your opponent or you doesnt have made enough time on that moment to study him.

Chances are that if you dont manage to get that ''irimi KO'' precise momentum you will be in big trouble and very prone to be grabbed and go ground with him in the case of a grappler, or in the case of a boxer or another dedicated striker that you will lead you to fight in close range and thats not a shotokan speciality btw...

So lets talk/work about whats missing and how shotokan can manage to work it out with that or whats the art have as some responses to those outcomes if any...Lets construct/share this also.

So you have made an attempt of strike interception and went forward closing in range with your opponent...In case of miss it and he being a dedicated striker have you being familiar to defend effectivelly hooks, elbows, knees and uppercut strikes as response to your irimi aproach?

And in the case of a bad outcome with a grappler what shotokan will offer you to be able to broke up of his holds in your body, cloths, hands, arms...What shotokan katas maybe are telling you to do? Would they have gave you enough knowledge to even defend competently the attempt of tackle for you to defend agains that takedown? Whats that unsu (cloud hands) kata from the gorgeous female serbian team are telling us to do with their ''hidden'' sweeping hands techniques for you to be able to defend against those arms and wrists locks?

Lets all the shotokan true searchers fill in those gaps...

 

[ShotoNoob]

I'll start with best 1st...

Shoto, that highlighted stated IMO its often, if not always, dictated not by the students in the gyms or dojos, but this is on the level of decision of instructors and organizations/associations... Mostly pre-stablished in a historical context by JKA (most notedly after master Gigos death). So its much more a historical impost thing than a matter of everyone is free for the choice...

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We have agreement here, with K-Man.... Kiina of a "chicken / egg" phenomenon.... (where is he?)

In my posts i surely can agree with you and have said that the heavily sportive focus regarding the art effectivenes in SD will let it a lot in detrimental. But when you do your talk somewhat constantly bashing spar, kumite and matt thortons its like you are blaming people for that and making them looking bad and feeling miserable. IMO thats why you have being accused of extremist...

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Just 'cause those guys are popular doesn't make what they do over-ride the karate masters.... Criticizing a style is part of the learning process, the difference is I use ANALYSIS.... I think sparring training, the free sparring is over-rated & over-used. It's an opinion. Why are poster's here so afraid of an opinion of a traditionalist karateka..?

And the other thing i still didnt get its: If you talk so bad about kumite and spar why you do those like you told above ?

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Because if any one reads my posts accurately and not with their own promotional views, you'll see that I'm in favor of kumite, in the traditional sense. Moreover.... I have said repeatedly that the MMA arena makes a great environment for pressure testing traditional karate... RAFA, please have my critics note this....
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Hence, those claiming extremism, have really shot themselves in the foot.... being extremely inaccurate in their responses...

Maybe you will answer: But i do it using the mental dimension working... (wich i higly agree), but so, we can conclude that the more sportive aproach (spar,kumite) can have its benefits rite? in develop those...(wich i can agree too)...

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Not sure what you are getting at. Please see my answer above... I've always stated my support for kumite. What i disagree with is the type of fighting I've described in my recent posts.... AND incidently so do many, many traditional Shotokan other karate authories posted all over internet, YT. guess all these karate officials, traditional stylists are extremists too. Silly.
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EDIT: Maybe this will help. I've also said a number of times that sport fighting WORKS. Let me repeat that, SPORT FIGHTING WORKS. Excellent example, BOXING WORKS FOR SELF DEFENSE. Matt Thornton's training, IMO, WORKS BETTER THAN BOXING FOR SELF DEFENSE.... Matt Bryers BJJ, especially the combat BJJ, WORKS FOR SELF DEFENSE...

So why the need to be constantly bashing those ?

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This statement does not apply to me. What's bashing is coming up with derogatory labels instead of speaking to the subject of my posts.... I see there's some vested interest's here in the Matt Thornton-like approach, which I already validated had benefit. Actually it's Matt Thornton going on record publicly saying TMA is ineffective. Matt Thornton has also gone on record making derogatory comments concerning TMA theory principles.....Why are some afraid of a knowledgeable rebuttal?. "cause they have a personal or vested interest in such methods. Fine, be a man and admit that.....
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Yes you are right about that... Sensei rick hotton on those vids ive found by coincidence when i typed shuto uke in YT trying to illustrate someone performing the tech with the right kime...IMO too hes one living example of shotokan people using the right aproach that doesnt make them over rigid and tense movement exagerated. If anyone wanna know more info of him ill recommend this link wich i have found pretty good:

Shotokan Karate Magazine - Training with Rick Hotton Sensei in Manchester UK.

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I've developed the same body / mechanic kime as shown in the Sensei Rick Horton vid. Mines a little smoother.... RAFA, who's going to read these posts?

In 20 years from here where i started, i can see a sensible increase of the ammount of people in shotokan using that ''hard and soft'' physical-mental concepts in their practices... At least in my area/state that was not and still not very common... Thats why i regard the right aplications of those aspects being so special to me...As far as i know, those concepts were always in goju-ryu from their chinese roots...

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Well as k-man's cousin, I know you follow this mantra, "extreme" as it is by Matt Thorton dogma... The heavy physicality of Shotokan practice is designed for the black-belt level program. And that works. Post Shodan, traditional Shotokan focuses more on relaxation & speed. TMU.

I still see in here in a lot of shotokan dojos, instructors that can make people performs like living statues, all over rigid, contracted and over tense... I started my martial and karate practice in my childhood and ill tell you my understandment and comprehension were zero to could make something about that regard in those times...

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Yeah, I know, you & K-Man hate that kind of Shotokan. By my view, that's not such a problem which ties into my mental dimension training.... I will grant you that many people practice Shotokan's physicality too literally....

Posting in here a preview of an informative link on that matter that could lead to mind blowing conclusions for those who wanna goes deep on that matter:

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yes, traditional karate is very sophisticated & deep...

''So the younger students trained with contraction not because they were taught to do it this way, rather because they thought contraction was the right way to do strong techniques..Yoshitaka (Gigo) Funakoshi sensei, O-sensei's son, took over the instruction in 1932, after Takeshi Shimoda sensei died of influenza (Layton, 1997, Egami, 1976). Considering the fact he was very ill (tuberculosis and later lung gangrene) and actually living on borrowed time, he seems to have been very uncompromising and at times emphasized strong training. This together with a militaristic spirit that prevailed in the late thirties and the first half of of the 40's may have been the reason in part for the tense and staccato movements encountered within sports karate groups (contraction styles) nowadays.

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Yes, I believe the cultural & poltical mindset of Japan & Japanese karate progenitors of that time had a great, great impact on how Shotokan karate traditions, later conventions developed.... We had the article on how the Japan military wanted quick, expedient results... for upcoming battles in a compressed time frame...

In any case, research was begun by Master Shimoda, he started to develop low karate stances and continued by Yoshitaka Funakoshi with a small group of students, among them Shigeru Egami and Genshin Hironishi (Layton, 1997; Cattel, 1989; Egami, 1973; Tokitsu, 199?). Karate-do evolved as a result of their discoveries, stances became more natural with respect to body mechanics and free from unnecessary tensions, this is clearly noticeable when we observe the front stance (zenkutsu-dachi). Leg position is natural, without strange and uncomfortable twists, the hip and the torso is placed in half-facing position (hanmi) and the back leg is in a natural bent position. These types of changes were done to all techniques and new ones were also developed by Gigo Funakoshi sensei and his research group, such as mawashi geri, yoko geri kekomi, ushiro geri, ura mawashi geri, fudo-dachi, etc (Anonynous, 1983, Layton, 1997; Harada, 1983; Cattel, 1989; Noble, 1985).''

Source: Another Way the way of non-tension relaxation in Karate-do

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Well, you've certainly done some research here. The action of karate stances is little understood, especially when we have the "ahrd sparring" group here @ MT talk about karate then reverting to similar stances as Boxers when fighting....
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Right now let me say, I never saw all the controversy about karate stances, which is really true of non-traditional martial artists. I practice a 'harder' traditional style and the standard stances work fine for me & most students that I know of .... could more sophisticated stance practice abound, I'm sure.
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EDIT: Let me repeat that K-man is practicing a more sophisticated style of karate than Shotokan.... TMU....

 

[Tez3]

This statement does not apply to me. What's bashing is coming up with derogatory labels instead of speaking to the subject of my posts.... I see there's some vested interest's here in the Matt Thornton-like approach, which I already validated had benefit. Actually it's Matt Thornton going on record publicly saying TMA is ineffective. Matt Thornton has also gone on record making derogatory comments concerning TMA theory principles.....Why are some afraid of a knowledgeable rebuttal?. "cause they have a personal or vested interest in such methods. Fine, be a man and admit that.....

Again with the Matt Thornton thing, you either have a massive crush on him or you are holding a heck of a grudge.

You should probably remember that Shotokan is only one style of karate, my style has short stances, yours has long but ours are short. We also have more stances than Shotokan. Not all karate is the same, what is true for Shotokan is not true of Wado Ryu for example, granted, this thread is about Shotokan but don't label all karate the same.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Nice Shoto, congratz. Well... I probably have got the idea about that fast fight (spar/kumite) of yours (i hope that was not the only one), and ill point out for you the possible flaws that i can see in the intensive use of that aproach...

Regarding mental dimension, you are using the old and good advanced concept of irimi...Thats the taikyoku spirit you are talking about... always forward...

Ill save myself in the making of another ''thesis'' here ... From the wikepedia:

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Oh no, extremism @ work....

''In Japanese martial arts, Irimi(入り身?) is the act of entering straight into a technique, as opposed to the more indirect entrance into technique called tenkan. In basic training, irimi usually looks like a step forward, straight or at an angle but usually ending with the body facing the attacker, rather than in the direction of the step. To enter with irimi, the defender needs to move in the very moment of the attack or even himself initiate it... Irimi involves entering deeply around or behind an attack to defuse or neutralize the attack. The concept of irimi teaches one to blend with or enter into an opponent’s attack to become one with the opponent’s movement and leaving the opponent with nowhere to strike.[3] This movement is utilized during the moment of the opponent’s attack. To complete the movement, one moves out of the opponent's line of attack to the opponent’s shikaku, or blind spot. When executed properly, one can strike an opponent with great force, combining his attacking momentum and one's forward movement.''

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In the last sentence, we see some of the bias of the traditional karate Masters, especially Shotokan, in advocating & incorporating body momentum... Here is where I am more sophisticated. Although I practice a hard, physical style of karate, I have evolved into more of the internally-generated strength akin to your Sensei Horton - immediate few posts above. Hence I can project that power absent any reliance on body momentum of myself or the opponent, although those may contribute to the ultimate effect.

Well, i have seen a lot of people getting KO'ed that way in all the places from the street to dojos, rings and so... It really have a high KO rate coz of the above highlighted characteristics... but its just like that... even from the start its a high risk high reward movement...but still, you can miss it, or the guy can swing/move head to evade/neutralize your punch force...the risk is there...

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Yes, that happens. In the MMA vid I posted, Garbrant is using some body momentum, but not excessive. He's really using more of body rotation like a boxer. Mattazotta is backing up a bit, so there's on contributing body momentum....
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ON THE RISK. IT IS A HIGH RISK MOVEMENT UNLESS EXECUTED WITH STRONG MENTAL DISCIPLINE... The Matt Thornton crowd, etc. only has stronger reactions, which we see such reactive moment work well for Mattazotta in Round #1, same fatal in Round 2. High Risk is almost inescapable for a multi-round MMA match...bigger truth...
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What I have described is Shotokan Ippon kumite form. The concept you have listed is a concept of the traditional Shotokan karate curriculum, it's manual, and a base principle of the Ippon Kumite exercise (and other traditional training kumite as well). Again, pardon my extremism for quoting what the Okinawan Master's came up with long ago--and Matt Thornton says is bunk....

IMO thats a kind of advanced tactic besides its very simple in aplication but what makes it really a challenge its that the karateka must really have good and sharp/keen senses/reflexes... fast, strong and most important... precise...

Not reflexes, the way you & K-man train, mental kime.... mental clarity, mental discipline, mind / body unity... spoken about by every japanese or Okinawan karate master I know of. with differing interpretations of course....

Some old masters former students of M Funakoshi even attests that ''karate doesnt have first strike'' principle idea its all about applying that irimi...

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Again, how metaphorical was that statement" How philosophical was that statement" How much of that was budo-way and how much jutsu-fighting....? The answer to me is again, in the form of the actual Ippon Kumite exercises &in the Shotokan principles actually presented in the manual & taught in the curriculum traditionally.... I'm "extreme" in that I made a thorough study of the Shotokan manual in terms of the breadth of what it covers... As opposed to showing I can walk into class and shove a heavy bag all around or smack focus mitts....

Not saying that its bad to use or that i myself never have used... Its highly recommended to abuse of it on a kumite/spar situation, coz its a controlled enviroment afterall, but for SD it have its risks... so the practitioner have to be pretty aware of those risks...

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No the ippon kumite applies anywhere. It's a 'highish' risk when you are relying on reactions, or less on risky instincts... as K-Man does...

But lets see the possible bad out comes and draw backs of that if some one decide to use that aproach on a real SD situation...

I would point out one main problem with that:

If you happens to know the guy you are fighting its a dedicated grappler or a striker that will be better - know your enemy - often chances are that this will not be possible in probably most SD situations when you just simply doesnt know your opponent or you doesnt have made enough time on that moment to study him.

Chances are that if you dont manage to get that ''irimi KO'' precise momentum you will be in big trouble and very prone to be grabbed and go ground with him or in the case of a boxer or another dedicated striker you will have to fight in close range and thats not a shotokan speciality btw...

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Correction: What you are saying applies to the recreational or much of the conventional Shotokan kumite. The better Shotokan kumite sport or traditioanl, are prepared for follow on techniques / tactics... Good Shotokan follow on fighting is on YT... That is made EXPLICIT in Ippon Kumite & kata////

So lets talk/work about whats missing and how shotokan can manage to work it out with that or if the art still have some responses to those outcomes...

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Answer: don't practice Shotokan monkey see, monkey do. Read the Shotokan manual, and the masters. Study & practice the whole curriculum. If that's not too "extreme" to ask (Still waiting to hear from TEZ#)?
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Don't sleep walk through the material and then assume 'cause you bullied some one who looks like me that you know karate...

So you have made an attempt of strike interception and went forward closing in range with your opponent...In case of miss it and he being a dedicated striker have you being familiar to defend effectivelly hooks, elbows, knees and uppercut strikes as response to your irimi aproach?

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Of course. Taikyoku kata#1: low block for low defense. It's so simple a concept it's taken as stupid 'cause a low block doesn't protect like the boxer hands up guard. We are learning to place the mentally disciplined strength of the entire body in a precise & tactically strong way to defend against a low [middle?] attack, yet simultaneously position & chamber for an immediate follow on move....
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It's foundational skill & principle, not the entire gamut of the curriculum... The mental discipline learn t is what goes on to make Shotokan really powerful action....

 

[ShotoNoob]

...I'm a karateka, have been for a very long time, not Shotokan but Wado Ryu, I train Bunkai, I train MMA as well but really can we just discuss Shotokan for defence instead of it being some sort of weird MMA thread?

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no doubt.... and no....

 

[ShotoNoob]

...So you have made an attempt of strike interception and went forward closing in range with your opponent...In case of miss it and he being a dedicated striker have you being familiar to defend effectivelly hooks, elbows, knees and uppercut strikes as response to your irimi aproach?

And in the case of a bad outcome with a grappler what shotokan will offer you to be able to broke up of his holds in your body, cloths, hands, arms...What shotokan katas maybe are telling you to do? Would they have gave you enough knowledge to even defend competently the attempt of tackle for you to defend agains that takedown? Whats that unsu (cloud hands) kata from the gorgeous female serbian team are telling us to do with their ''hidden'' sweeping hands techniques for you to be able to defend against those arms and wrists locks?

Lets all the shotokan true searchers fill in those gaps...

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Here's a well respected Shotokan karate master ["extremist?]".... doing that extreme Ippon Kumite.

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Now, TEZ says I'm posting weird, stuff and am upset 'cause Matt Thornton boys have presumably been mean to me... So RAFA, may I ask you to take over and point out what you see in this set of exercises that could START to answer the question / issue you so appropriately posed?
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EDIT: I pulled myself togther for just a moment, may I direct attention to time 0.44? Maybe a little imagination, please...

 

[Tez3]

and no....

so it's going to continue with your love/hate relationship with Matt Thornton and how MMA proves YOUR Shotokan karate is wonderfully better than anyone else's Shotokan karate. Wow.

Don't hold your breathe waiting for me, I'm Wado Ryu not Shotokan......

 

[ShotoNoob]

HERE'S A TANG SOO DO VERSION re Tang Soo do Master.
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Now I can see what Matt Thornton, like-mined don't like here. K-Man, the rigid, over tense physicality, expansive moves against exaggerated technique on part of uke [japanese].

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So not ALL examples of Ippon Kumite have the same quality. Note, however, I did see a YT vid of this same Tang Soo do Master when younger, put on an impressive display of Ippon Kumite (TSD style) which demonstrated some of the answers IN PRINCIPLE to the questions RAFA asked about follow on.
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One of those answers is present in this YT vid.