Shotokan for self defence.

[ShotoNoob]

Shotonoob, I'm sorry, it's not an insult but you ramble. Your sentences are staccato, jumbled and often it's not possible to understand what you are saying. I'm sorry too that you don't seem to understand what other people are saying and it's Matt Thornton btw.
An example... this means what? "Time to buck up for the sudzs...." Nonsense. and this
this means?

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No, perfect answer to the post I replied to... which was just as you described for my answer....

You have your own, unique view of Shotokan karate, that's fine but it doesn't mean everyone has the same view and you are the only one that is correct.

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Quite the contrary, there are certain pillars underlying traditional karte, traditional martial arts and either you have those right or you have those wrong.... that's it.

You keep bringing up MMA and MMA fighters who are fighting in competitions, the subject under discussion is self defence. Now I will be the first person to say that MMA can be easily turned towards self defence when needed the truth is that MMA fighters can't be compared to people who train MMA for just the enjoyment of training let alone karateka who train for self defence.

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I think MMA makes a great laboratory for reality testing TMA. I have said MMA is not on par with the full blown self defense programs such as those advocated here by professionals on MT. Please try to respond to my posts accurately... Others here at MT are using SIMILAR mma comparisons to mine; their post should be referenced as well.

Oh and I do know what I'm talking about by the way, I'm a traditional karateka, have been for many, many years as well as having a great deal to do with MMA for the past 16 years including training, coaching, judging reffing, cornering etc etc etc. I've also had considerable experience in the job I did before retiring of street fights, muggings and such like before that I was in the military and have seen my fair share of fights.

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Ok?

This has absolutely nothing to do with the subject, I think perhaps you should ask the UFC for advertising fees.

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You sound like your are my instructor. You are not.

He wasn't condescending, he was being reasonable however you were being insulting. You can't do that to people. If you are going to comment on how long you've been here as opposed to new people I'd remind you I've been here longer than you and I can say that posting endless posts one after the other is not the best way to go so.

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yeah,,,,, I'm contrary to your position and what you believe in....

No idea what you are on about here, I suspect you are having the conversation in your head where it sounds good but when it reaches us it's nonsense because we have no context and it's apropos nothing at all then you add '@FN70' that may mean a lot to you but nothing to me. Your conversations here seem to be with someone other than the posters here, I'm not insulting you here just explaining how your posts come across, it's like being in a three way conversation when you can only hear one other person.

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I posted an interesting case study @ FN 70, to me. If same has no value to you... there's no need to respond... right...? I've been told fighting me is like handling 2 opponents, btw... funny you should hit on that....

 

[ShotoNoob]

Posting an article and other link for the ones interested on being introduced and start to check inside one of the manny branches of the ''magical'' aspects of karate:'

''What is Ibuki – The Art of Breathing, how can I use Ibuki and more. The application in your martial arts journey and how you can use it in your life outside of the dojo.

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Go Rafa, GO!

 

[ShotoNoob]

...Love to see how they are high kime-ing... In every move you can hear a little and natural kiai...Thats golden !

''Good luck with all of that''

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Oh my Garsh Rafa, pre-programmed movements, rigid straight punches, exaggerated stances..... karate performance art ..... What would the JACK SLACK worshipers say now???

P.S 1: I must say take it easy with Shoto. Manny times i agree hes vague when explaining but i think some terms of pure ''mysticism'' he have being dropping in here its in conclusion that everyone in a shotokan trhead is already or proly already familiar with them. (first time i saw kime here its he discussing with k-man but no further explanations were given).

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Well, KIME is key.... Rafa, I forced to say you must share DNA with K-Man....

P.S 2: He dropped Matt Thorton's dead body to me either ^^. I even doesnt know him and never heard of him before but in the context of the discussion i implied that was some kind of coach/instructor that were relying too much on the physical aspect of conditioning.

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Yep, dropped him right on YA. And you're going stronger than ever....

Peace to all !

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Go RaFA, gOOOOO... FOR MORE....

 

[Oldbear343]

My dad was a semi pro boxer - his punches were as sharp as any black belt I have trained with (several at 5th dan level)! There are many paths up the mountain, but only one moon to see from the top....

 

[DaveB]

I can agree with you in some extent when im pretty sure its a physical technique, but in concept its much more. Its physicality is refined at the max by his own work and lecture in the mental aspect of the technic. And thats whats diferentiating him of a lot out of his contemporaries that applied the same effort on the physical training and havent achieved same result.

Im not talking only about that brain synapsis to the body tru endless repetitions that you are saying. If thats the way required to master said technique in perfection, we would see more often more people that have dedicated the same ammount of hard training performing exactly the same way. And in reality its not that way.

The mental aspect/dimension/conditioning that most denied in those vids and are ''hided'' in just hard kickes and punches:



That aspect IMO with all of his branches are not objective. They are more on the subjective and thats why maybe we are not being able to met on a common position. The time applied to get good on those are not always directly related by the time you have applied to get good on your physical conditioning.



And if we change the order of the factors would that change the final result of that equation? The (perfection/development of the) physical component of karate is a by-product of the mental training (and comprehension). Well, i hope not. And mushin can ideally also be achieved even before battle exhaustion.





I believe that others are applying those concepts with no ''karate labels'' to very good results. People from other MA that can apply kime without never heard of that before.

If we are labeling those concepts with ''mystical'' like karate - japanese names and you think that is some kind of sorcery/magic its entirely up to your conclusion.

Its a karate shotokan SD related thread afterall and not a MA wizards one. So people that are bothered by those karate concepts and labels and are not able to even respect, get or comprehend/research some of them, at least keep some respect on the discussion.

I said those aspects are not magic, meaning that there is nothing particularly special about them.

Having looked at the articles you posted I can see that our disagreement is about what we each class as mental. Breathing is not a mental skill, it is physical. Mental things happen in your mind. And being able to pick appropriate strategies is pretty standard to all martial arts.

ShotoNoob has written post after post, all very hard to make sense of, but finally he stated clearly his position and I largely agree with it. All I would add is that mental discipline won't help if your training is inappropriate to the challenge.

For future reference, starting with nonsense like "mental training is what will beat a grappled" and following up with baseless derogatory accusations like calling people commercial, does not help get your point across. And if you have written at length on a topic, at least point people to where. Just saying so is not helpful

 

[ShotoNoob]

My dad was a semi pro boxer - his punches were as sharp as any black belt I have trained with (several at 5th dan level)! There are many paths up the mountain, but only one moon to see from the top....

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Boxers are challenge for karateka, and often boxer's prove out over conventional karate practice.
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My goal is to have the boxer seeing the moon in his unconscious dreams.... the way for me to do that is not to outbox the boxer, it's to out-think him...
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EDIT: Is RAFA's Female Kata Team demo the path??? HMMMMM....

 

[ShotoNoob]

Speaking of nonsense, thanx Rafa for putting up some modern-day women showcasing accomplishment other than the constant barrage of Kendall Jenner photo ops...

 

[RafaChan]

My dad was a semi pro boxer - his punches were as sharp as any black belt I have trained with (several at 5th dan level)!

I do believe in you. I have met few people from the ordinary that were really special regarding MA and SD, street fights, but could not have the same gasp and mentally/phisically disciplined good to have the best results in the sports pro scene or did have other life implications to go top.

There are many paths up the mountain, but only one moon to see from the top....

I agree and will add: Some times we may have to climb along other paths so we could know/understand the mountain better and our own path limits.

I said those aspects are not magic, meaning that there is nothing particularly special about them.

Question: How often do you see really special people regarding MA in your area amongst all of the mob that is focusing/executing the same aproach on hard physical conditioning training?

Ill play Shoto here assuming that my position its already clear. So you guess that what is missing its something more and is what lays in mental as i pointed.

Having looked at the articles you posted I can see that our disagreement is about what we each class as mental. Breathing is not a mental skill, it is physical. Mental things happen in your mind. And being able to pick appropriate strategies is pretty standard to all martial arts.

Thanks to have looked. I think a lot of people other than me can agree that when we get conscious when breathing and start to be in control of it, that thing its not only physical any more. Not mechanical invonluntary anymore, its being intentional and alterating a lot of your phisyologics and mental states itself. Plim! Now its mental either and have its big share of importance in add power to the physicalty of the said technique ''Good luck with that''...

And IMO strategies are not that in the standards in MAs. At least not those that could be the best ones for a pesky and deceptive SD situation. All of that whats said in this whole thread since its begining its attesting on that...

ShotoNoob has written post after post, all very hard to make sense of, but finally he stated clearly his position and I largely agree with it. All I would add is that mental discipline won't help if your training is inappropriate to the challenge.

Will always... Can even change the tide of said challenge if applied correctly... Hope you can agree even more.

For future reference, starting with nonsense like "mental training is what will beat a grappled" and following up with baseless derogatory accusations like calling people commercial, does not help get your point across. And if you have written at length on a topic, at least point people to where. Just saying so is not helpful

Im not the one to blame for what you have being accused. Those were not my words and aproach. And im not here talking or giving lessons of how to be a psychic or mystic neither. Thats your only conclusion. And i cant agree.

The (mental) skills required for anti-grappling including the right strategies/moves to use and when to use those packed with good physical conditioning also... IMO either all of that counts heavy. Buf if the right mental attitude could (can) also serve the striker to over come a grappler on a high ammount either ? Who is to say not that will also can play a good part ?

Shoto MMA study cases (i had put some also chinzo anti-grappling flying knee can attest to that)... Valid to check in specific (tactical-mental-physical) parts. Big lab i can agree, but not the best or complete for SD study like manny people point. Not for the whole strategie one can use in SD definitely but lets see...

Illustration for a big role of mental attitude and one more free knee as bonus against very good sticky ones:

Bonus:

 

[RafaChan]

EDIT: Is RAFA's Female Kata Team demo the path??? HMMMMM....

Kendall Jenner pics making you hit harder ? Than why not ?

Oh my Garsh Rafa, pre-programmed movements, rigid straight punches, exaggerated stances..... karate performance art ..... What would the JACK SLACK worshipers say now???

As a form traditionalist like you say so i can understand your critics. I myself can transition tru middle to deep stances getting a lot of good results by that. I pay the price to add more power in speed manny times and cover more distance when need the cat/catch leap.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Rafa, textbook now approaching karate treatise.... to take 1 colossal point you've addressed....

...Thanks to have looked. I think a lot of people other than me can agree that when we get conscious when breathing and start to be in control of it, that thing its not only physical any more. Not mechanical invonluntary anymore, its being intentional and alterating a lot of your phisyologics and mental states itself. Plim! Now its mental either and have its big share of importance in add power to the physicalty of the said technique ''Good luck with that''...

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The role of proper breathing is so little talked about when so many are comparing traditional karate or Shotokan against the sport-fighting approaches. Same is typically overlooked or even left without sufficient emphasis in the modern karate training halls. I'm less well versed on the subject myself than I would like. Breathing is an essential part of kihon practice. Breathing is a large reason why traditional karate kihon is practiced, drilled solo in group classes & without contact.
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Shotokan karate practitioners, the traditionalists are not punching air.; they are breathing air properly through conscious, concerted thought.... This has an effect.... we are building energy & strength internally, rather than expending energy and stressing the body externally. Perhaps now some can understand how I shatter boards without all that excess body momentum or rotation or movement.
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The effects of proper breathing by traditional karate standards are far reaching. When we nourish the body & calm the mind, the mental dimension we have can strengthen. As that focus strengthens, KIME becomes strong. It's all metaphysical which makes same problematic to discuss or appreciate. But we can experience it. The other mental capabilities described by Shotokan karate develop.... we are on our way to traditional karate as a mental discipline, not a physical exercise alone.
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People can practice Shotokan as a Recreational exercise... they will benefit. People can practice Shotokan as a Physical fighting endeavor, as a sport, they will benefit. Practicing Shotokan karate as a mental discipline, however, will make it come alive so that Matt Thornton's SBG's guys will bite the dust in the face of solid Shotokan....
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Those criticizing the traditional karate kihon practice of "punching air," have left the martial breathing approach completely out of the equation when making such criticism. It is a very shallow & short-sighted approach if you claim to appreciate or to understand karate....
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Bit of a ramble, but your focus on breathing is of huge import. In terms of developing the true foundational skills of traditional karate...
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rock 'em sock 'em tough guys, good luck with that.....

 

[ShotoNoob]

Kendall Jenner pics making you hit harder ? Than why not ?

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Kendall's gorgeous we all agree. Yet over-rated like Matt Thornton & Co., IMO. Too much of a good thing...

As a form traditionalist like you say so i can understand your critics. I myself can transition tru middle to deep stances getting a lot of good results by that. I pay the price to add more power in speed manny times and cover more distance when need the cat/catch leap.

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The Serbian Female Karate Kata Team, demonstrate how women in plain gi's can also be a thing of beauty.... no? There's loads of [mental] sophistication packed in their performance.

 

[Tez3]

I posted an interesting case study @ FN 70, to me. If same has no value to you... there's no need to respond... right...? I've been told fighting me is like handling 2 opponents, btw... funny you should hit on that

How do I know I'm interested if I don't know what @FN 70 is?

No, it's not like fighting two opponents it's like talking to primary school children when they all talk at once.

 

[ShotoNoob]

How do I know I'm interested if I don't know what @FN 70 is?

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UFC fight Night 70. Move mouse, google, right click....

No, it's not like fighting two opponents it's like talking to primary school children when they all talk at once.

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Mouth makes right....
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EDIT: Good luck with THAT....

 

[drop bear]

Question: How often do you see really special people regarding MA in your area amongst all of the mob that is focusing/executing the same aproach on hard physical conditioning training?

Ill play Shoto here assuming that my position its already clear. So you guess that what is missing its something more and is what lays in mental as i pointed.

Hard tasks done diligently is mental training. Of course it is also physical training. To be good at one you are training in the other.

The hardest training mentality by consensus is the sauna to cut weight by the way.

 

[Tez3]

UFC fight Night 70. Move mouse, google, right click....

then use the commonly understood UFC70 so everyone can understand you or carry on being misunderstood.

Mouth makes right....

And that means.............?

 

[RTKDCMB]

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UFC fight Night 70. Move mouse, google, right click....

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Mouth makes right....
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EDIT: Good luck with THAT....

Are you feeling alright?

 

[Tez3]

Boxers are challenge for karateka, and often boxer's prove out over conventional karate practice.

You may think so but most of us find boxers fairly easy. How many times have you sparred boxers? We do regularly as we have regimental boxing teams sent to us for sparring practice because they find us hard to spar, teaches them how to deal with, what is to them, unconventional fighters.

 

[DaveB]

The role of proper breathing is so little talked about when so many are comparing traditional karate or Shotokan against the sport-fighting approaches. Same is typically overlooked or even left without sufficient emphasis in the modern karate training halls. I'm less well versed on the subject myself than I would like. Breathing is an essential part of kihon practice. Breathing is a large reason why traditional karate kihon is practiced, drilled solo in group classes & without contact.

This is like saying we eat food to develop cutlery skills.

Question: How often do you see really special people regarding MA in your area amongst all of the mob that is focusing/executing the same aproach on hard physical conditioning training?

Ill play Shoto here assuming that my position its already clear. So you guess that what is missing its something more and is what lays in mental as i pointed.

1. I don't make superficial judgements of other martial artists.
2. I don't make leaps of logic until all other options are ruled out.

You can't make judgements by look at someone you don't know, whose background and training and whose teachers methodology are unknown and start prescribing training fixes.

You can't rely only on faith in what works for you when dealing with someone different. Doing so misses all the other elements that make a person reach their current place in their MA journey. Doing so moves us from martial art to religion.

My biggest trouble with Shoto's posts are that they are all faith and judgement, and like every good religious extremist they are based on taking a small part of the "faith" out of context and blowing it's importance way out of proportion. This then becomes the one true path and even others of the same group (in this case traditional karate) are just misguided fools for not following the one true way....

Thanks to have looked. I think a lot of people other than me can agree that when we get conscious when breathing and start to be in control of it, that thing its not only physical any more. Not mechanical invonluntary anymore, its being intentional and alterating a lot of your phisyologics and mental states itself. Plim! Now its mental either and have its big share of importance in add power to the physicalty of the said technique ''Good luck with that''...

The articles you posted do not support you. They are descriptions of physical exercises for physical results. Your description sounds like meditation, at best. As I've said, the mind and the body are tied, you can't work on one without the other.

1. That doesn't make a physical practice mental.
2. This is in no way unique to Shotokan or karate in general.

And IMO strategies are not that in the standards in MAs. At least not those that could be the best ones for a pesky and deceptive SD situation.

Traditional Shotokan as it is commonly taught is quite limited on strategy, largely because of the faith issue above. If you have absolute belief in your one hit knockout and your indomitable spirit, you have no room for curiosity about how to escape from multiple assailants or how to get off the ground when being kicked. Every SD situation gets reduced to, "make some distance then Gyaku Zuki to the face".

But this is an issue of culture, not style and is easily fixed by adopting appropriate training methods, including those that highlight the need for other approaches like scenario training.

Will always... Can even change the tide of said challenge if applied correctly... Hope you can agree even more.

Another article of faith. Mindset is important but it is one part of a bigger picture. .

The (mental) skills required for anti-grappling including the right strategies/moves to use and when to use those packed with good physical conditioning also..

I agree, but Shotokan as it is traditionally taught, does not include much if any grappling let alone realistic counter measures. How can you pick the best strategy for self defense if your learning hasn't even touched on the techniques and tactics of real violence?

Though the culture may be lacking, the fighting style of Shotokan is not, in that the strategies, mechanics and tactics are all sound. What is needed to make traditional Shotokan viable for self defense is:
1. An understanding of self defense I.e. Realities of violence, law, risk assessment and likely considerations, desirable outcomes etc.
2. Understanding of appropriate training aims to match the areas above.
3. Working out how to adapt existing combat knowledge to the SD environment.
4. Work out how to convert commonly trained movements into techniques to cover tactical weaknesses eg looking to kata for hold escapes etc.

Mental training is present in all 4 stages. It plays a big role, but it is nothing if not grounded in physical reality.

 

[Buka]

You may think so but most of us find boxers fairly easy. How many times have you sparred boxers? We do regularly as we have regimental boxing teams sent to us for sparring practice because they find us hard to spar, teaches them how to deal with, what is to them, unconventional fighters.

I'm with you, Tez. The first year I spent in a boxing gym was a pain in the face. But all the while I was thinking "I sure wish I could sweep or kick these guys". As some of my boxing trainers became my trainers in all Martial ring competitions I was allowed to pratice Martial skills against boxers in the boxing gym. We were all friends at that point and most of the boxers were extremely helpful. And they had never in their life experienced getting swept or kicked low in a combination.

The reverse of that is also true. When decent boxers started training in our gym, once they got the hang of Martial fighting, their hand work shined against any of our guys who hadn't boxed.

Ain't training a grand thing?

 

[Dirty Dog]

You may think so but most of us find boxers fairly easy. How many times have you sparred boxers? We do regularly as we have regimental boxing teams sent to us for sparring practice because they find us hard to spar, teaches them how to deal with, what is to them, unconventional fighters.

There is a local boxing club that used to come to our dojang, until the Y put a stop to it for liability reasons.
If our students boxed theirs, they got smacked around. As soon as kicking is introduced, their students got smacked around. This should not be a real shocker to most people.