Short 2 and other worthless notes

[brianhunter]

Last night me and Jeff where working forms and he convinced be to go back and learn Short 2 on the other side. How many of you have done this? What did you think? The moves where there it was a little awkward but I liked it.

We also had a little game going he would do a form any form....then would turn around and it was my turn to do a form. It was a lot of fun and we had some pretty good discussion working out this way long 3 kicks my butt (for now!!) but it was a very good workout doing forms this way!

And HAPPY HALLOWEEN EVERYBODY!!!! Jeff has been wearing his costume all year in preperation for this day!

 

[Elfan]

I do everything on both sides. It is preferable to defend with your more corodinated hand to the front but thats not always possible. Being able to use either hand with near equal profeciency increases the choices you have, which IMHO, is a very good thing.

 

[rmcrobertson]

I'm confused. What other side? I thiught the salutation for Short 2 announced that you'd be doing both right and left sides...

Now backwards, that sucks to work on.

Thanks,
Robert

 

[Elfan]

Well you could choose to do one or both sides and signify with the salute as such. Some instructors might have their students always do both sides and thus would always signal as such.

 

[brianhunter]

I stand corrected it is an interwoven form....maybe in reverse or backwards would be more appropriate.

:asian:

 

[WilliamTLear]

There are a couple different ways that I have seen the forms taught in relation to this topic...

1.) During my training in Pasadena (under Larry Tatum, Larry Kongaika, and Frank Trejo) I was taught that the Short Forms were to be done on each side, and that the Long Forms were to be done on one side.

2.) Recently in my training at the West Los Angeles Studio (under Bryan Hawkins and Wes Idol) I was taught that Short Form One, Long Form One, Short Form Two, Long Form Two, and Short Form Three were all done on both sides for semetry. The other forms Long Form Three and beyond... are done on one side because they are semetrical forms.

3.) Dennis Conatser requires his people to do all of the forms on both sides.

I think (#2) makes the most sense to me. The semetry in the forms beyond Short Form Three makes learning it on the opposite side too redundant for my tastes, but that is just my point of view.

I was also taught that you only salute the side that you are going to perform. If you are going to do both sides, signify both sides... starting with the side you will perform first.

Hope this helps,
Billy Lear

 

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by WilliamTLear

There are a couple different ways that I have seen the forms taught in relation to this topic...

1.) During my training in Pasadena (under Larry Tatum, Larry Kongaika, and Frank Trejo) I was taught that the Short Forms were to be done on each side, and that the Long Forms were to be done on one side.

2.) Recently in my training at the West Los Angeles Studio (under Bryan Hawkins and Wes Idol) I was taught that Short Form One, Long Form One, Short Form Two, Long Form Two, and Short Form Three were all done on both sides for semetry. The other forms Long Form Three and beyond... are done on one side because they are semetrical forms.

3.) Dennis Conatser requires his people to do all of the forms on both sides.

I think (#2) makes the most sense to me. The semetry in the forms beyond Short Form Three makes learning it on the opposite side too redundant for my tastes, but that is just my point of view.

I was also taught that you only salute the side that you are going to perform. If you are going to do both sides, signify both sides... starting with the side you will perform first.

Hope this helps,
Billy Lear

Isn't short 2 pretty darn semetrical anyway? Also aren't almost all the movements on long 2 done on both sides anyway, seems like a duplication of effort....This is just for the sake of argument and to continue a discussion that is actually interesting and on the system.

jb

 

[WilliamTLear]

Originally posted by jbkenpo

Isn't short 2 pretty darn semetrical anyway? Also aren't almost all the movements on long 2 done on both sides anyway, seems like a duplication of effort....This is just for the sake of argument and to continue a discussion that is actually interesting and on the system.

jb

The transitions from one set to another in Short Form Two are what throw the semetry off in that form...

Long Form Two doesn't have semetry on the sets that run on the 10:30 and 1:30 angles, as well as the last set toward 12:00.

Duplication of effort? I think it is worth the practice. Here's a question for you: Why go through the trouble of learning a martial art when guns are legal in the U.S.?

Give a man a fish and he eats for a night, teach a man to fish and he will eat for the rest of his life.

Chat with you soon,
Billy :asian:

 

[SingingTiger]

Short two has symmetry, but that doesn't mean there's no benefit from doing the form off the B side. For example, if you just do the form off the A side, there's no transition from a left handsword to a right inward block. That might be what Billy was referring to when he mentioned transitions, I'm not sure.

Rich

 

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by WilliamTLear

The transitions from one set to another in Short Form Two are what throw the semetry off in that form...

The transitions where? after the nip the tip move or middle knuckle (whichever you use)...It seems to me you do 12,12, 9,3,6,12,4:30,7:30,1:30,10:30 each side alternating so your doing right and left.

Long Form Two doesn't have semetry on the sets that run on the 10:30 and 1:30 angles, as well as the last set toward 12:00.

For me semetry isn't that big of an issue in this regard, each concept is executed on both sides, except the advancing and retreating movements toward the end of the form....

Duplication of effort? I think it is worth the practice. Here's a question for you: Why go through the trouble of learning a martial art when guns are legal in the U.S.?

Well, even if I decided to go the gun route I'd still get some form of martial training in that regard. By the way how far does a person have to be away from you before you can full extent your weapon and discharge? Just how quickly can a person close in on you and nullify your little concealed weapon gun permit? You know the stats.

Give a man a fish and he eats for a night, teach a man to fish and he will eat for the rest of his life.

Spoken like a true Kenpo man, always fall back on something you know....food...:rofl:

Actually, a good quote and a possible argument for teaching concepts verses techniques....but that's for another discussion.

Your turn, jb:asian:

 

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by SingingTiger

Short two has symmetry, but that doesn't mean there's no benefit from doing the form off the B side. For example, if you just do the form off the A side, there's no transition from a left handsword to a right inward block. That might be what Billy was referring to when he mentioned transitions, I'm not sure.

Rich

I don't understand what you mean....but there's benefit in any excuse to practice the art.

jb

 

[WilliamTLear]

I didn't say moves... I said transitions when I was speaking of Short Form Two... Little bit of a difference there... Sorry that you don't get it...

Originally Posted By: jbkenpo

Spoken like a true Kenpo man, always fall back on something you know....food...

Are you implying that I don't know what I'm talking about when it involves Kenpo.

Originally Posted By: jbkenpo

Just how quickly can a person close in on you and nullify your little concealed weapon gun permit?

You really wanna know? :shrug:

I've talked to many Kenpo Seniors about the issue of doing both sides of the forms and why... You seem like you have all the answers though, so I will shut up and let you have your fun.

Happy Halloween,
Billy Lear

 

[brianhunter]

Billy,
When you said all short forms are performed on both sides did you mean short three also? Doesnt long three cover this somewhat? I know there are different tech's like glancing spear and parting wings in there which might make a difference. Sounds like a challenge to do it this way might be worth a shot but i have never done it.

Thanks for any input

Bam Bam

 

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by WilliamTLear

I didn't say moves... I said transitions when I was speaking of Short Form Two... Little bit of a difference there... Sorry that you don't get it...



Are you implying that I don't know what I'm talking about when it involves Kenpo.



You really wanna know? :shrug:

I've talked to many Kenpo Seniors about the issue of doing both sides of the forms and why... You seem like you have all the answers though, so I will shut up and let you have your fun.

Happy Halloween,
Billy Lear

Man,

Billy can't I play without getting into trouble or what...I know where your coming from and your background and the company you keep...I'd never imply you didn't know what your talking about. My bad for trying to input some levity. (I put :rofl: when I'm just joking because I thought it implies that the comment isn't to be taken seriously)

I agree there is nothing wrong with doing both sides...I mentioned it at the beginning, "for the sake of argument and discussion" I'd attempt to make some arguements against.

I don't have all or even a few of the answers (even if I act like I do, it certainly doesn't mean I'm right), but I figured I could get some insight playing the heal...that's all dude.

Relax...you've been in battle mode too long. I'm just doing some intellectual sparring with ya. Hell, we're friends we don't even need pads. Nothing serious, just exploring. I guess I will take a break, maybe my typing fingers are a little too heavy for my own good. I'd rather maintain good relationships with my people and just show what I know on the mat (even if mine is in Texas and yours is in the Mecca). I'll IM ya later or give you a call at some point...

later, jb

p.s. I still can't understand you transitions comment, the internet often cannot convey things with clarity, including the spirit that my previous post was sent with...

 

[cdhall]

Originally posted by WilliamTLear

There are a couple different ways that I have seen the forms taught in relation to this topic...

2.) Recently in my training at the West Los Angeles Studio (under Bryan Hawkins and Wes Idol) I was taught that Short Form One, Long Form One, Short Form Two, Long Form Two, and Short Form Three were all done on both sides for semetry. The other forms Long Form Three and beyond... are done on one side because they are semetrical forms.

Billy Lear

All excellent comments as usual Billy, I think we are required by Mr. Duffy to follow 2.) above.

Originally posted by brianhunter
I stand corrected it is an interwoven form....maybe in reverse or backwards would be more appropriate.

If I'm thinking clearly about Opposite and Reverse, Brian I think you meant the "Opposite" side.

Now I'm going to have to go ask Mr. Duffy about all this to make certain.

PS Lighten up Billy, Jason meant no disrespect I think you took his post wrong and I know you guys will straighten it out. I see Jason has already brought this to your attention. Breathe in, breathe out, breathe in, ... :rofl:
:asian:

 

[SingingTiger]

Originally posted by jbkenpo

I don't understand what you mean

There is symmetry in short two, in that you perform a right inward block stepping forward with the right foot, followed by a right handsword, and you also perform a left inward block stepping forward with the left foot, followed by a left handsword. The same movement off both sides, hence the symmetry.

However, if you only perform the kata off the A side (stepping forward with the right foot first), you transition from a right handsword to a left inward block, but you never transition from a left handsword to a right inward block. Hence the lack of symmetry, at least as far as transitions go. If you perform the kata off the B side, you will have the transition from a left handsword to a right inward block, but not the transition from a right handsword to a left inward block. So if you perform the kata off both the A and B sides, you have a more comprehensive symmetry (for lack of a better term). Several of the rest of the moves fall into the same category.

Certainly, this isn't a big deal, but I don't think it's trivial, either. I think that one should be able to transition from any one stance/position to any other stance/position equally well on both sides, and performing the kata off both sides might help solidify that ability.

NOTE: I'm not at an AK school, so I might not be doing short two exactly as you are. But what we do pretty much matches Parker's description in "Infinite Insights, volume 5," so I'm guessing we're talking about pretty much the same thing.

Rich

 

[WilliamTLear]

Singing Tiger,

You got it brother... You're interpretation of my statement is correct... and yes, it makes little difference if you ask me, but for the sake of good practice we do it on both sides.

Hasta,
Billy Lear

 

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by SingingTiger

There is symmetry in short two, in that you perform a right inward block stepping forward with the right foot, followed by a right handsword, and you also perform a left inward block stepping forward with the left foot, followed by a left handsword. The same movement off both sides, hence the symmetry.

However, if you only perform the kata off the A side (stepping forward with the right foot first), you transition from a right handsword to a left inward block, but you never transition from a left handsword to a right inward block. Hence the lack of symmetry, at least as far as transitions go. If you perform the kata off the B side, you will have the transition from a left handsword to a right inward block, but not the transition from a right handsword to a left inward block. So if you perform the kata off both the A and B sides, you have a more comprehensive symmetry (for lack of a better term). Several of the rest of the moves fall into the same category.

Certainly, this isn't a big deal, but I don't think it's trivial, either. I think that one should be able to transition from any one stance/position to any other stance/position equally well on both sides, and performing the kata off both sides might help solidify that ability.

NOTE: I'm not at an AK school, so I might not be doing short two exactly as you are. But what we do pretty much matches Parker's description in "Infinite Insights, volume 5," so I'm guessing we're talking about pretty much the same thing.

Rich

ok,

If that's what he meant then I gotcha...Something that you could have shown me in 2 seconds takes mutiple paragraphs to convey so I can understand what your referring to. Isn't the net grand...

 

[WilliamTLear]

Originally Posted By: Jason Bugg

Billy can't I play without getting into trouble or what...I know where your coming from and your background and the company you keep...I'd never imply you didn't know what your talking about. My bad for trying to input some levity. (I put when I'm just joking because I thought it implies that the comment isn't to be taken seriously)

You're not in trouble. And... I know that you know that I know what you know. (follow me on that one?)

Originally Posted By: Jason Bugg

I agree there is nothing wrong with doing both sides...I mentioned it at the beginning, "for the sake of argument and discussion" I'd attempt to make some arguements against.

I'd rather go fishing than argue for the sake of an arguement.

Originally Posted By: Jason Bugg

I don't have all or even a few of the answers (even if I act like I do, it certainly doesn't mean I'm right), but I figured I could get some insight playing the heal...that's all dude.

Actually, it looks like you did a pretty good job of making me look like the heel, and I sure did a good job of stepping in it for ya'll. :rofl:

Jason... you're okay in my book... I'm putting down the keyboard, and stepping away from the computer... Bad Billay!!! Bad!!! No more violent video games for you!!!

Your Friend,
Billy "If it bleeds we can kill it..." Lear

 

[WilliamTLear]

Originally posted by brianhunter

Billy,
When you said all short forms are performed on both sides did you mean short three also? Doesnt long three cover this somewhat? I know there are different tech's like glancing spear and parting wings in there which might make a difference. Sounds like a challenge to do it this way might be worth a shot but i have never done it.

Thanks for any input

Bam Bam

Long Three doens't cover it all... Short Three has some techs that aren't in Long Three and vise versa...

Give it a try, the worst that can happen is that you might learn something (even if that something is not liking to do it on the other side... LOL!)

Hasta,
Billy Lear :asian: