Shinwa vs Musashi vs other brands

Discussion in 'Japanese Swords and Sword Arts' started by PhotonGuy, Jul 5, 2016.

  1. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2008
    Messages:
    6,012
    Likes Received:
    926
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Melbourne, Australia
    What's so harsh about those laws? Simple regulation, common sense measures to me…

    That is true.

    Actually, yes, it is that. And the fact that you don't seem to be able to recognise exactly why that's a problem. You're actively promoting your ideas as valid and worthwhile to the discussion, your suggestions as being worthy of consideration, even though you freely admit you don't know anything about the subject beyond what your personal values tell you. Does that really seem like it's a good idea? I'll put it this way… I've done boxing, BJJ, and other things… but let's pretend I haven't for a second… if I was to say that, in an MMA match, all you need is to poke people in the eye with your thumb, because "it's only real when it's no rules", and you'd win every time… hell, Brock Lesnar is no match for a simple flesh grab to the inner thigh, he'll go down like a bag of cement, trust me… based on completely uneducated values, would you let that go in an MMA forum?

    That's how you come across here… and that's why your lack of knowledge and awareness is a problem… and your lack of acknowledgement of the issue is your mistake. You think your opinion is valid. It's not. That's your misunderstanding.

    You think that's the real issue? Look, neither myself, nor Paul are under any misapprehension that we will engage some epic clash of blades in the street (considering where Hyoho lives, he's got a much higher probability… but still won't engage in a duel with a rival samurai, of course). No.

    The issue with the poor technique is that it's dangerous. Dangerous to the blade, dangerous to the user, dangerous to anyone around.

    No, we're not. To use a far more accurate analogy, we're doctors identifying medical problems, diagnosing, and treating them, even if we've never suffered from the maladies ourselves. You're a guy who's looked up symptoms online and thinks he knows how to diagnose himself.

    Only if you think that the only relevance can be engaging in a duel with a samurai. And, if you think that, you really have no place trying to argue with us.

    Really? How do you know that? I can point to any number of aspects of my sword training that I've relied on, successfully and in differing contexts… they may not have been physical confrontations with live blades, but that's hardly the reason I train in these arts.

    You really can't get past this tiny idea of what you think training in a sword art is about, can you? Here are some classical ideas for you…

    兵法は平法なり… the methods of war become the methods of peace (Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu)
    殺人剣活人剣… the sword that kills, the sword that gives life (Yagyu Munenori, Yagyu Shinkage Ryu)

    Swordsmanship training, even "back in the day", wasn't always necessarily about killing people… in fact, the exact opposite is espoused by many systems.

    This isn't about elitism, or wanting to keep anyone out of our "club"… it's about safety, as well as presenting the best advice we can offer.

    You genuinely don't know what you're talking about here…

    Here's the thing. Paul mentioned it as well, but I'm going to re-iterate. This is a martial arts forum. It's a place where you go to have discussions with practitioners and instructors, gain insight and information, and learn. More to the point, this is the Japanese Sword Art forum. A forum dedicated to Japanese sword arts, practices, history, and so on… and, to that end, we will be rather concerned with presenting correct information, and good advice… after all, PhotonGuy might be able to swing around a cheap knock-off blade without injury, but how about the other young, inexperienced kids who might read it? I'm hardly about to give advice that you can get away with a cheaper blade, incredibly dangerous techniques and practices, and more, when I don't know who might hear it.

    After all, if you give bad advice about boxing, MMA, BJJ or so on, and someone takes it, they might lose a fight… get a black eye or split lip… maybe get knocked out. If we give bad advice, and someone takes it, they might lose body parts… or worse. Probably the best (worst?) example found online is the case of Don Rice… he was fairly experienced with swords, but self taught in Iai, and lost concentration one day… and… well… I'll let you read. Make sure you check out the photos on the second page, and perhaps you'll see why we are so definite in not giving out advice that can lead to injury: Why the best piece of advice is "Get an Instructor" WARNING--DISTURBING PHOTOS ON P.2

    A cheaper option is not the problem. Bad advice, based on a complete lack of knowledge, understanding, and experience is. Arguing with the people you acknowledge as having expertise because you have some warped idea of the value of your opinion doesn't help you.

    Er… no. That's not the same token at all…

    Some may, but that's not exactly the reasoning for much training in (particularly) Koryu sword arts… but that's taking us in another direction.

    Really? Then you might want to work on how you come across, because it really seems like you have nothing but a lack of respect for such practices…

    No, you're getting advice on horse riding from people who have raised horses, broken them, ridden them, stabled them, and grown up with them… but never rode them in the Kentucky Derby (or Melbourne Cup, for us). The fact that you can't see the distinction is a big part of why your "advice" is so out of place.
     
  2. PhotonGuy

    PhotonGuy Senior Master

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2013
    Messages:
    2,934
    Likes Received:
    273
    Trophy Points:
    143
    If you've read the link there was the case of a polisher who was suspected of breaking the law who had in fact done nothing wrong but nonetheless, just because he was suspected he was interrogated by police for hours and even after not being charged with any crime he still gets checked on by police regularly where they search his house at all odd hours and when he complained about it they "accidentally" slammed his head into a wall. I would call that quite harsh.
     
  3. Hyoho

    Hyoho Black Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2013
    Messages:
    582
    Likes Received:
    230
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Funny you should say that. After WWll and Budo being banned for a while there was distinct lack of teachers in Japan for while. For example the teachers kendo association had us guys around 40 years of age fielding a team of 4 instead of five for competition. That's in a population of 2 milllion+

    So being in demand I did High School, University, Police Dojo and a Yakuza asked me to teach at his dojo also. The point being all the bad guys also learn but hopefully its for the right reasons.
     
  4. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    13,928
    Likes Received:
    2,787
    Trophy Points:
    263
    No?

    You do not have to be a Japanese sword master with a $5,000 sword to cut a bloody plastic bottle in half.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. PhotonGuy

    PhotonGuy Senior Master

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2013
    Messages:
    2,934
    Likes Received:
    273
    Trophy Points:
    143
    What if you miss and hit the post below the bottle? With a cheap sword the blade could snap off and go flying and possibly hit somebody. That's exactly what happened in this famous Shop at Home video where the presenter was trying to show the strength of the sword by hitting it against a table and the blade snapped off and hit him.
     
  6. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    13,928
    Likes Received:
    2,787
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Then you will loose a table. And scratch up your sword.

    We are not really comparing the same things. The tactana is just a machete in a sword shape. 1075 carbon steel some rivets some micarta and that is it. It is a cheap design that is essentially supposed to be crudely wailed into things.

    You would be practicing with a garden tool.



    At the end of that video a guy is chopping a branch with a $150 dollar sword.

    Nobody will risk their thousand dollar sword in the same manner. Regardless how much training they had or how good they think their sword is.

    And that is the difference I am trying to explain.

    Two different options.

    Here is your shinwa by the way.

     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2016
  7. Hyoho

    Hyoho Black Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2013
    Messages:
    582
    Likes Received:
    230
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Why dont you just show cook chopping carrots with kitchen knife. Maybe someone peeling and apple? You guys really just dont get it however much people try to help. Makes me wonder why some of you ever even got into MA in the first place.
     
  8. pgsmith

    pgsmith Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2005
    Messages:
    1,442
    Likes Received:
    374
    Trophy Points:
    123
    Location:
    Texas
    While what you say is essentially true, none of it has anything to do with Japanese swords and sword arts, which is the focus of this forum. Both of those videos that you posted show a moron working hard to earn a Darwin Award. From the view of someone that practices a Japanese sword art, they are both stupid and dangerous. It would be like showing a Power Rangers video in the MMA forum, then asking why people have a problem with it. :)
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    13,928
    Likes Received:
    2,787
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Imagine someone did ask what gloves they should buy to be a power ranger in the mma forum.

    Should I respond with just get a cheap set until you are actually going to commit.

    Or should I say you cannot buy gloves until you have trained with Greg Jackson.


    [​IMG]
     
  10. PhotonGuy

    PhotonGuy Senior Master

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2013
    Messages:
    2,934
    Likes Received:
    273
    Trophy Points:
    143
    Interestingly enough Jason Frank who stars as one of the Power Rangers is a martial arts instructor in real life and supposedly quite a good one too.
     
  11. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2008
    Messages:
    6,012
    Likes Received:
    926
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Melbourne, Australia
    I read the link. Thing is, that is not really anything to do with the laws, but more on an enforcement side (albeit far from ideal, sure… of course, there are details hinted at, but not described). And I was asking what was so harsh about the laws, not the officers enforcing them.

    No. And your lack of ability to listen to what you're being told, or grasp what is being said, is of no real matter at all. You don't know what you're talking about, and we do. So I recommend you listen.

    Who the hell said you did? What we've been advocating is safe training practices, nothing like what you're suggesting… and, frankly, we'd never recommend using a $5,000 shinken for bottles… you'd ruin the thing… nor has anyone besides you even brought up the idea that there is any aim of cutting bottles at all… PhotonGuy hasn't yet answered what he wants the sword for… and has mentioned cutting bottles exactly zero times.

    This usage (as it pertains to this thread) is your fantasy, as is your entire argument.

    You won't lose a table. And you'll scratch up your sword simply by cutting bottles, for the record. You'll scratch it up to a degree cutting tatami omote, even soaked. Once again, you don't know what you're talking about.

    No, we're not. We're discussing swords, as requested by the OP, in the OP, and as determined by this sub forum, and you're trying to talk about god-knows what with no basis at all.

    So… you're admitting it has exactly no place in a forum or thread asking about training Japanese swords? What are you thinking you're actually adding to the thread?

    Which means exactly what?

    And, again, you show that you have a complete lack of understanding of the topic entirely… no-one is suggesting anything of the kind.

    Look, can you do me a little favour? Recognise that you have no clue about what we do, or how we do it… so lecturing us on how we would or would not use our tools is completely baseless and out of place.

    You don't know the difference you're trying to explain. You think it's about cutting things (bottles etc), and any sword that can do that is fine… except there has been nothing in the entire thread indicating that that is even part of PhotonGuy's intent or request… and your take on what cutting is about is deeply and desperately flawed from the outset.

    Look, the idea that everyone's opinion is valid is a sad lie. You're entitled to your opinion, sure… but your opinion does not automatically have value or weight… and, frankly, your opinion in this area is completely worthless. While Hyoho, Paul, and myself can see that easily, of course, others reading who don't have the experience we do might think that what you say is perfectly valid. It's not. And it's for them that I am posting, as bluntly, you have shown no ability to apply any form of critical thinking or any ability to take on the information you are given, so I have no hope of you learning anything. But I can hope that others reading can understand that reading your posts will not give them anything valid or worthwhile at all.

    You don't know what you're providing options on, though.

    God, that's one awful piece of junk… movie-fantasy blade shape, terribly outfitted… useless "tool". Not a recommendation.

    Oh, and "destruction tests" are only ever done by idiots who don't know what they're doing. Which is, frankly, the only way to describe everyone in every clip you've put up.

    Do you really think those are the same things? You do get that our first concern is that PhotonGuy has a teacher, yeah? And that the teacher should guide what he gets? I mean… for most sword arts (particularly kenjutsu systems), you'd simply use a bokuto (wooden sword)… we're not recommending anything like the "$5,000 sword" you keep referencing… nor are we suggesting he seeks out some kind of high level teacher… anyone teaching a legitimate system would be fine.

    Seriously, you have no clue what you're talking about in anything in this whole thread. What makes you feel that your opinion even had any validity in the first place?
     
    • Like Like x 2
  12. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    13,928
    Likes Received:
    2,787
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Look son. You really need to get out more. It is not about you.

    We both have no idea what photonguy wants a sword for. But you have reached into his mind and decided exactly what he needs. Based on your needs.

    The issue with your information as usual is it is so removed from the normal practically of daily life as to be pointless at this stage.

    Ask for he time and you tell them how to make a watch.

    All he has asked for is information on a practical sword. Which you have instead given him a lecture on how he has to be some sort of sword master before he can buy one.

    If he wants a sword let him get a sword. If he wants to learn a Japanese sword art let him do that. If he dosent that is also fine.

    If you are the expert recommended the guy a sword. Which so far you haven't been able to do.
     
    • Dislike Dislike x 1
  13. Hyoho

    Hyoho Black Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2013
    Messages:
    582
    Likes Received:
    230
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Then why even post this rubbish on a martial "arts" forum? The needs have nothin whatsoever to do with M.A. Go on Amazon whatever, buy one, get wet hacking up a few plastic bottles and post it on YouTube so we can all have a laugh. The only practice swords we use in MA are usually for the benefit of responsible MA people and post accordingly. The general rule in the past has been that only Yondan about use them anyway.
     
  14. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    13,928
    Likes Received:
    2,787
    Trophy Points:
    263
    So you can't recommend a sword?

    At what point do you get to touch a sword in this sword art?
     
  15. Hyoho

    Hyoho Black Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2013
    Messages:
    582
    Likes Received:
    230
    Trophy Points:
    58
    When you have a beginners grade +4. Yondan is equivalent to 4 black belts. The original concept was to give beginners a mogito (unsharpened blade). After it was considered they had progressed enough not be danger to themselves or others the blade was sharpened.

    Do you you actually devalue your own art? As I said before if I came to your training would you consider me to be proficient in what you do just because I am the headmaster of another art? I would be rank beginner and be asked not to fool around.
     
  16. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2008
    Messages:
    6,012
    Likes Received:
    926
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Melbourne, Australia
    You're kidding, right? Please tell me you're kidding…

    No?

    Okay, let's break down your lunacy bit by bit, shall we?

    I have never said it's anything to do with being about me, however PhotonGuy came to a sword-centric forum, to ask a question geared around Japanese swords, and he has been getting Japanese sword answers. You, on the other hand, have consistently made this about yourself, and your (completely uninformed) opinions and values. You have not "gotten out" at all in this regard… oh, and the use of "son" is cute, but you're missing how it's applied. Nice try, though.

    Wrong direction there, mate. I have asked what he's using it for, you've been talking about the use for cutting up bottles in the backyard (nothing he's even indicated), based purely on the fact that a video you posted featured the act. In other words, this has been you projecting your (completely uninformed) perception of what someone would want (or need) a sword for. Based on your… well, nothing, really. You don't have anything to base it on.

    We're talking about swordsmanship… exactly what "practicality of daily life" do you think we should be addressing? Are you completely insane?

    The only practicality required is suitable to the practice it's intended for. You've focused on a practice that is not brought up by the OP, or anyone other than yourself… and have been championing items that are eminently ill-suited to anything else (Iai, ken, serious tameshigiri, batto, hell, even kenbu for gods sake).

    You seriously have no idea what relevance the information I (and others) have been giving has… because you have no idea what the hell you're talking about.

    Garbage. All this is is your lack of understanding of the topic and the conversation, as I have never once done anything of the kind.

    Firstly, no, he hasn't. He has asked for information surrounding two cheap, Chinese brands (mass-produced) of Japanese-style "swords". There was no mention of anything to do with "practical sword". I mean, the entire OP is:

    Nothing about "a practical sword" at all. In fact, the first time anyone even suggested any usage was you, in post #13… where you said what you would be wanting a sword for:

    As you can see, even there you were deciding what you thought the emphasis should be… even though you weren't sure of why PhotonGuy was after a sword yourself. That's where this lunatic idea of yours has come from, and your entire line of thinking… which has come from you, not from me, not from Hyoho, not from the OP, or from the poster themselves.

    Secondly, even if PhotonGuy had asked for a "practical sword", the first thing would be "practical for what"? Which was never answered

    Find me one post by myself here where I say anything of the kind. Seriously, just one. I'll wait.

    Once again, get through your head what this forum is. If he wants to get a sword, and take his own damn fingers off, that's his prerogative… but if he's going to come to a Japanese Sword Arts forum, and ask Japanese sword practitioners about Japanese swords, guess what kind of answer he's going to get.

    Garbage. We've very specifically given advice on this subject… but the reality is that we can't simply recommend "a sword", as it doesn't work that way. It's like someone asking you what kind of car to buy, and you suggest a Toyota Hilux, because you think they're hard-working and reliable… okay, but the guy wants to enter it in rally races. Or you recommend a Ferrari because you think red is the best colour for cars, but the person has 7 kids and no funds… although, frankly, recommending a car is far, far easier.

    Here's the reality… the best advice whenever anyone asks what sword they should buy is to check with their instructor. Which is the first advice he was given. Mainly as, not only do different approaches to sword have different ideal traits, different systems will sometimes have very specific requirements themselves, running the gamut from blade length and sori, to tsuka ito maki, to the rest of the koshirae, and beyond. Not only will the teacher be aware of what is required (and suitable) for the student, they will know what is suited to the system being practiced.

    We really weren't being flippant when we suggested that.

    Nope. Not with any accuracy, without more information than PhotonGuy has provided (he hasn't even confirmed yet that he is studying "Tenshin Ryu" under Conti, for instance). But what we can say is that these cheap, mass-produced, factory made, Chinese-forged items tend to be rather inconsistent in the way they're put together, with issues in the fittings and more, with low quality tsuka (prone to splitting), ill-fitting mekugi (which makes the blade loose, and leads to more problems down the road), poorly fitted tsuba (requiring more seppa), ill-fitted saya (particularly in the koiguchi, leading to all manner of issues in drawing), and more. So, if such a weapon is purchased, it's highly recommended that it gets pulled apart and thoroughly inspected by someone who knows what they're looking at prior to purchase. As such, they are not items that tend to get much recommendation.

    What sword art do you think you're asking about? I mean… in Kendo, you're likely to never "touch" a sword (shinken)… same with any number of koryu systems… some Iai systems (koryu) start you with a shinken… ZNKR Iaido and you start practicing with a shinken after 3rd Dan, as Hyoho said…

    You really need to get this understood. You don't even know what the various approaches to sword are… how could you possibly be in a position to offer anything close to advice?
     
  17. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    13,928
    Likes Received:
    2,787
    Trophy Points:
    263
    My art has a bit of a different culture/mentality.

    If you are proficient. You are proficient.

    We have had rank beginners take classes if they have a skill set.
     
  18. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    13,928
    Likes Received:
    2,787
    Trophy Points:
    263
    So the op.s question was what do people think of shinwa or musashi or can recommend a sword?

    And you cant.
     
  19. Hyoho

    Hyoho Black Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2013
    Messages:
    582
    Likes Received:
    230
    Trophy Points:
    58
    So by the standards you suggest we can all start out own school with a "proficiency set".

    Recommending swords we also consider the user. So I am guessing he will say NO :banghead:
     
  20. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    13,928
    Likes Received:
    2,787
    Trophy Points:
    263
    And you don't think that is a bit obsessive compulsive?

    I mean would you refuse to recommend a car. Or a knife or toilet paper based on not having enough information of the user?

    I do a bit of bushcraft from time to time. And the knife question is very similar to this sword question.

    What survival knife should i get?

    And you get guys like yourself who are just too involved in their own expertise and will suggest things like this. Because without a serious knife you will die out there.

    TOPS Knives BOB Brothers of Bushcraft Hunter 4-5/8 inch 1095 Blade, Brown Micarta Handles



    And look it is a good piece of kit. Or you can get sexy custom jobs for even more money.

    And you can suggest once a person goes down the track a bit and knows what he is doing to make a choice on these sorts of things. And then the type of knife becomes important depending on specific use and environment. And training becomes important.

    But most people dabble and are going to loose the thing or bust it so generally you recommend this.

    Amazon.com : Morakniv Companion Fixed Blade Outdoor Knife with Sandvik Stainless Steel Blade, Black, 4.1-Inch : Hunting Fixed Blade Knives : Sports & Outdoors

    Which in all honesty will do everything you really need it to do without the hype. But more importantly is easily accessible.

    And knives are sharp you can injure yourself and others being an idiot. But common sense plays a role much more than year with a practice knife. In my opinion.

    So as far as I have seen here. You can either be patronising or helpful.

    Which one are you being?

    Because so far I have recommended a sword that will chop hard stuff and not break.

    You have mocked people for cutting bottles in a back yard.

    This is how I am familiar with the condor brand by the way. I have some of their knives.
     

Share This Page

Search tags for this page

musashi vs shinwa

,
shinwa vs musashi
,
watkins sensei hyoho