Shinden Fûdo Ryû dakentaijutsu / jutaijutsu?

[Bujin]

I have been pondering a thing concerning Shinden Fudo Ryu for quite some time now and I am interested to hear the input of those more knowledgable than me in this area.

A Story you often encounter in the BBT is that of Takamatsu Toshitsugu entering the Dojo of the Martial artist (and uncle?) Toda. I have been told, read on internet and I belive in some book that the Dojo had a sign that read "Shinden Fudo Ryu Taijutsu or perhaps Shinden Fudo Ryu Jutaijutsu". Takamatsu was taught Shinden Fudo Ryu and recieved Menkyo Kaiden in it. Later I believe he taught Hatsumi Masaaki.

On my diplomas it says "Shinden Fudo Ryu Dakentaijutsu". During 1998, i think, the theme was Shinden Fudo Ryu Dakentaijutsu (SFRD). There is a Quest video with SFRD. In the TCJRM there are several techniques from SFRD. All dakentaijutsu and never jutaijutsu. I was fortunate to train some Shinden Fudo Ryu Jutaijutsu techniques (SFRJ) in the early 90-ties, because my tacher visited Japan and got to train with a Japanese Shihan who happened to be practising the SFRJ at that time. However this is a long time ago and I havent heard a word about SFRJ since.

Can someone shed some light on the situation of SFRJ? Is SFRJ even a part of Bujinkan? Is it somehow incorporated into SFRD? I have also seen the spelling: Shinden Fudo Ryu Taijutsu for the same techniques as the SFR jutaijutsu.

All help in clarifying is much appreciated!

Best regards / Bujin

 

[Shizen Shigoku]

This might not have exactly what you're looking for. It wasn't what I was looking for, but it was kind of interesting.


I asked some questions about SFR over at kutaki, http://www.kutaki.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=1351&forum=6

The answers weren't completely satisfying, but nonetheless enlightening.

 

[George Kohler]

From what I understand Shinden Fudo-ryu taijutsu/jutaijutsu and Shinden Fudo-ryu dakentaijutsu are two seperate schools that Takamatsu Sensei taught to several of his students. These two also have different lineages, but both converged with Toda Shinryuken and then Takamatsu Sensei

As to who was given soke for these two schools:

Ueno Takashi - Shinden Fudo-ryu taijutsu
Hatsumi Masaaki - Shinden Fudo-ryu dakentaijutsu

It should also be pointed out that Ueno Takashi was Hatsumi Sensei's teacher prior to Takamatsu Sensei, and that Ueno gave Hatsumi Sensei menkyo kaiden in Shinden Fudo-ryu taijutsu in 1959 (Showa 34).

Fukumoto Yoshio also was taught both schools. He was a student of both Takamatsu Sensei and Ueno Takashi.

Kaminaga Shigemi, Sakagami Takejiro, Sakagami Ryusho (Shito-ryu karate fame), Hatsumi Masaaki, Fukumoto Yoshio, and Ueno Yoshiaki (Takashi's brother) were all taught Shinden Fudo-ryu taijutsu by Ueno Takashi.

Sakagami Takejiro is the soke of Shinden Fudo-ryu taijutsu. Here is his website http://www.aa.alpha-net.ne.jp/bahansen/syoubukai/top.htm

 

[Bujin]

Thanks for the interesting input!

However im still confused since I have contradicting information when it comes to founder, genealogy and there being a connection between the two or not. Does anybody know what is written in Bugei Ryuha Daijiten regaring these schools? Did Hatsumi Masaaki recieve any training in the SFRJ by Takamatsu?
It is kind of intriguing that two schools with so similar names end up having the same soke for two generations (or more?) and then splits up again.

Please share some more light on the issue

Best regards / Bujin

 

[George Kohler]

Thanks for the interesting input!

However im still confused since I have contradicting information when it comes to founder, genealogy and there being a connection between the two or not. Does anybody know what is written in Bugei Ryuha Daijiten regaring these schools? Did Hatsumi Masaaki recieve any training in the SFRJ by Takamatsu?
It is kind of intriguing that two schools with so similar names end up having the same soke for two generations (or more?) and then splits up again.

Please share some more light on the issue

Best regards / Bujin

I'm not sure if Hatsumi Sensei studied it from Takamatsu Sensei or not.

I'm not at home, so I am going off memory. As to the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten, it lists both schools. For the taijutsu school it lists Ueno Takashi as being the soke and the school has Ju (as in jujutsu), sword, iai, bo, spear, and maybe others (I can't remember every detail). See this site for the lineage http://www.hanako.co.uk/History/Related-Denkei/Shindenfudo-Taijutsu-Soke.pdf

As for the dakentaijutsu, the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten has Hatsumi Sensei as the soke and lists this school as only having daken. See the lineage here http://www.hanako.co.uk/History/Denkei/Shindenfudo-Daken-Soke.pdf

I should also mention that that the daijiten also has another Shinden Fudo-ryu listed, but this school is listed as being ken (fist method). What make this strange is that this school was also given to Ueno Takashi, but not from Takamatsu Sensei. Ueno Takashi learned this school from Mabuni Kenwa. FYI, Mabuni is the founder of Shito-ryu Karate. As for it's lineage, I can't remember who founded this school, but it was not a very long lineage. I do remember that Mabuni Kenwa learned this school from another Mabuni (I don't know if it was his father or not).

 

[Bujin]

Here is an interesting twist to it all.

I learned a few SFRJ-techniques back in the 90-ties because Manaka was teaching them in Japan at the time my teacher happened to be there.

More recently I have heard from a member of the Jinenkan that Manaka teaches that the SFRD and SFRJ are from the same school, that they share the same founder and history and that it says so according to the densho. That should also be how Takamatsu taught Hatsumi. I dont know how trustworthy this information is but it would be interesting to hear if anybody else has heard the same thing?

Best regards / Bujin

 

[George Kohler]

I learned a few SFRJ-techniques back in the 90-ties because Manaka was teaching them in Japan at the time my teacher happened to be there.

Hmmm...The SFR jutaijutsu kata list, that was being passed around in the early 90's, has the same kata (and in the same order) as the SFR taijutsu list that Kaminaga Shigemi made.

 

[George Kohler]

Also, I do have a copy of a photograph of the menkyo kaiden that Ueno Takashi gave to Hatsumi Sensei. This photo was published in Hiden Magazine. (a Japanese magazine on martial arts)

 

[Bujin]

"Hmmm...The SFR jutaijutsu kata list, that was being passed around in the early 90's, has the same kata (and in the same order) as the SFR taijutsu list that Kaminaga Shigemi made."

I dont know which list you are referring to but there is a list in the "Ueno Takashi memorial book" that have the same kata names and structure, is this the one?

Does anyone know if there are sources where Takamatsu or Toda refers to the SFRD and SFRJ as separate schools?

Im also pondering one other thing: If Ueno recieved SFRT (which seems to be the same as SFRJ) why didnt he also recieve SFRD? Ueno seems to have been quite interested in those types of schools and surely they would have fitted nicely together?

Best regards / Bujin

 

[George Kohler]

Bujin,

Yes, that is what I was referring too. The pamphlet was made by Kaminaga Shigemi.

I don't think there is any sources that Takamatsu Sensei stated that they were different. However, the Kukishinden Zensho does mention a Fudo Ryu taijutsu on page 310. The lineage appears to be similar (but not quite) to Ueno's school and apparently Takamatsu Sensei is the one who wrote it.

I'm not sure why Takamatsu Sensei did certain things. We do know that he had quite a few students and a few of them were given different schools. Sometimes he gave similar schools but with different names. For example, Mizuta den Hontai Takagi Yoshin-ryu. He named the one for Ueno as Jujutsu and the one for Hatsumi Sensei as Jutaijutsu. I've also heard that most of his students did not know what the others were studying, and that he taught each one privately.

 

[Bujin]

A question to Mr. Kohler,

Do you stydy Shinden fudo ryu jutaijutsu (taijutsu) in the Genbukan?

Best regards / Bujin

 

[George Kohler]

Yes, both are studied in the Genbukan.

 

[Bujin]

"Yes, both are studied in the Genbukan"

Does the SFRJ you study originate from the Bujinkan or from some outer source like Kaminaga Shigemi? Are they studied simultaneously or do you learn one school before the other in Genbukan?

Best regards / Bujin

 

[George Kohler]

Does the SFRJ you study originate from the Bujinkan or from some outer source like Kaminaga Shigemi? Are they studied simultaneously or do you learn one school before the other in Genbukan?

Best regards / Bujin

I believe they come from two sources; Hatsumi Sensei and Fukumoto Sensei.

In the dan curriculum both are not taught in the same level. I'm not sure in the upper levels (at this time I'm working on my yondan). Now, if you are actually learning the ryuha in the menkyo system (shoden, chuden, ect.) I guess it is possible to learn both at the same time, if Tanemura Sensei approves it.

 

[George Kohler]

I forgot to add that on several Japanese websites it states that Fujitani Masatoshi learned SFR taijutsu from Takamatsu Sensei. I think he started learning from him around Aug of 1952. He is a well known Karate (Tani-ha Shito-ryu ) teacher in Japan.

 

[Bujin]

Does anyone know if there are any sources mentioning SFRD apart from those connected to Hatsumi?

Best regards / Bujin

 

[Shinobi]

Here is a chart I made for whoever asked on Kutaki but my account was stolen or something, anyway.

This should explain it all, I have not included Fukumoto's name because I don't have a reference for his name in kanji and no solid proof aside from the GBK that he did learn the art from Takamatsu. Guess we'll have to wait for that 2nd issue of Tatara magazine if it ever comes out to see some pics of proof maybe!

My research into SFR Kenpô is not complete yet, but as I originally thought since it was taught to Ueno from Mabuni that it might be an Okinawa art, this isn't the case. It is related to some kind of Jûjutsu and has Jûjutsu in its mokuroku. Here is the listing from the Daijiten: Shinden Fudô-ryû (Ken"fist", Bô, Naginata, Iai, Koshimawashi, Yawara, Tessa) So at some point it was or still is a sôgô bujutsu. What I find interesting is its listing of Kenpô, Jûjutsu/Yawara and Koshimawashi like in some styles of jûjutsu, so maybe at some point it was related to some of the more popular ones. How or why Mabuni learned it I am not sure since he was a huge Karate guy and founder of ****ô-ryû as George already noted. I need the 3 issues of Hiden translated fully as Kaminaga goes very into depth of the history of the art and explaining the differences of the arts.

As to whether Takamatsu-sensei taught Hatsumi-sensei the SFR Tai/Jûtai or not I have no clue. Maybe why it’s called Jûtai is the same reason Takagi Yôshin-ryû Jûtai from Takamatsu to Hatsumi is named that since he had already given it to Ueno as TYR Jûjutsu. Or Takamatsu-sensei added it to Hatsumi's SFR Daken or maybe Hatsumi-sensei added it since he has menkyo kaiden from Ueno-sensei in SFR Tai and renamed it. Not sure, but those are the 3 theories or speculations I have until someone gets a definite answer from Hatsumi-sensei himself. All we can do is speculate with pieces of info we have which helps but is not the full answer.

Let’s not forget SFR Iai that Tanemura-sensei now claims he trains in with Suzuki-sensei whoever he is or what other style he is related to and what part of Japan he is from. Its supposedly related to SFR Daken somehow and split off at some point in time. George anything on that?

Also Sakagami-sôke is claiming Hontai Shinden Fudô-ryû Dakentaijutsu, how true that is I have no idea.

Information overload, enjoy the chart if it posts!

Ok I guess I can't post pics here. I'll do it on E-budo instead in the koryû section.

 

[Shinobi]

Ok I can't post the chart over there either as it's to big so if you would like to see it, e-mail me for it at [email protected]

It is watermarked so if you complain about it not being clear enough to read, oh well! Thats to counter all the lame copy & paste websites out there with incorrect history on them stealing it.

 

[George Kohler]

Let’s not forget SFR Iai that Tanemura-sensei now claims he trains in with Suzuki-sensei whoever he is or what other style he is related to and what part of Japan he is from. Its supposedly related to SFR Daken somehow and split off at some point in time. George anything on that?

I haven't heard that it was connected to SFR Daken. From what I was told by John Lindsey, it is connected to Muso Shinden-ryu/Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu. So, I'm not really sure.

 

[Shinobi]

I haven't heard that it was connected to SFR Daken. From what I was told by John Lindsey, it is connected to Muso Shinden-ryu/Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu. So, I'm not really sure.

Didn't know that, thanks for the clarification, is it Shinden Fudô-ryû Iaijutsu or Shinden something?

E