Shaking my head.

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by Ironbear24, Jun 13, 2018.

  1. Ironbear24

    Ironbear24 Senior Master

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    In the end this is our fault, but a guy came in wanting to try us out. We got him on the mat and we're showing him some throws, dude labds on his back and is in pain. Gets up and says he had lower back surgery....

    Why in the world would you think "let's try learning martial arts now before I am healed up."? So he left and said he'd come back later. We forgot to ask about any medical issues first but it was assumed he was fit for it since he volunteered himself.
     
  2. marques

    marques Master Black Belt

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    Not judging you, but ‘assumptions’ should be made according to local law. So you avoid big issues for yourself...

    In the U.K. often I am asked to fill a health form before the trial class. So they can’t say they don’t know; and if I lie or don’t know myself, it’s my responsibility. Simple. In France a medical certificate is mandatory. Just play by the rules. Especially in these situations...
     
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  3. Headhunter

    Headhunter Senior Master

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    Well just hope he doesn't decide to sue you guys because it's the schools job to check these things. Yeah sure he should've said but maybe he didn't expect it to go that hard or that it would bother him. It's up to the people in charge to make sure of these things before allowing someone to train

    Also a quote I heard on some TV show that just came to me. Never make assumptions. Assumptions make an a-s-s out of you
     
  4. skribs

    skribs Master of Arts

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    When you assume, you make an a-s-s out of u and m-e. (all the letters go into that word perfectly)

    My school checks these things. My Master will curtail some parts of the curriculum depending on injury and ability. I didn't really understand the question on the form (it just said "medical conditions") so I said I have an allergy to certain medications. He laughed and said it was more about injury related stuff that would be directly Taekwondo related.
     
  5. Balrog

    Balrog Master of Arts

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    Actually, when you assume things, it makes an *** out of u and me both.
     
  6. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    Many years ago, a stranger and his girl friend knocked my front door. I let them in. the guy wanted to challenge me in Taiji push hand in my living room. I told him that I don't do Taiji push hand but I don't mind to spar or wrestle with him. He then said that he had bad knee and can't spar or wrestle.

    I don't understand why people with certain physical limitation still wants to challenge others in the first place.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2018
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  7. Headhunter

    Headhunter Senior Master

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    Also have to say you should be teaching /how/ to fall correctly first before just throwing the guy around
     
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  8. dvcochran

    dvcochran Master Black Belt

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    You know the old saying: assume makes an "***" out of "yoU and "me".
     
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  9. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    Why wasn't there some form of health check (even just a "hey, so, this is kind of rough, so is there anything we should know?") BEFORE he got on the mat?
     
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  10. Ironbear24

    Ironbear24 Senior Master

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    Because mistakes were made.
     
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  11. hoshin1600

    hoshin1600 Senior Master

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    Every dojo should have some kind of liability waver before anyone steps on the floor. Some people are shady. They will come try out a class with the intent on using it to sue for damages or get out of working on medical disability.
     
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  12. Headhunter

    Headhunter Senior Master

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    Who was actually running this because and i may be wrong here but this sounds like it was you and your friends training together by the way you say we like you were part of being in charge
     
  13. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    This is someplace I have to guard myself. I hate dealing with paperwork and details and stuff, but I make myself slow down, get paperwork done, and ask about health issues and limitations. I've never had to alter curriculum yet, but I have had to change how some students did certain drills (had one with inner ear issues - couldn't do more than a couple of rolls in near succession). Just use this as a learning point. Even if your instructor has already asked, if you get a new person to work with, ask about limitations. I do this when I go back to visit my old school, even with people I've worked with before, because they may have a new knee issue since I last saw them.
     
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  14. dvcochran

    dvcochran Master Black Belt

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    I was often surprised when a school I would visit while traveling would not require me to sign a release form. I think being able to show credentials helped. Of course that didn't lessen the liability. Then again, release forms are pretty weak documents as far as legal protection for the dojang owner.
     
  15. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

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    If there was one thing I learned from my sport law class, it’s that waivers never hold up in court.
     
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  16. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    I don't know about the modern time. But in the pass 200 years in China, if you have SC jacket on and if someone kills you, your family members are not allowed to sue that person. Even when I was young, all challenge fights should not get involved with the law.

     
  17. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    We always ask people about their current physical state so that "We can customize their training." so that "they can see and get better results." This is part sales and marketing and part safety. We always want to train people based on their current physical capabilities. We also want to monitor their training as well. Many times we would get someone who is recovering from some kind of health issue, so we make sure people don't push harder than they should. While "jumping into the fire" and learning by doing is a great mindset, it doesn't work well for Martial Arts Training.

    Sports in general are full of people who have the bad habit of pushing harder than what may be good for them. Things to keep in mind.

    1. Demo on current students not newbies or potential customers
    2. If you want to show that a technique, then pick one that allows you manage the pain intensity. Joint locks and escapes are my go to, because it's something that the potential student can experience and do on day one. They also help to explain concepts and how things work. It's a good way to take all of the magic out of martial arts.
    3. Remember you are in charge and that people are stupid. Your job is to stop people from making stupid decisions under you guidance like doing martial arts right after back surgery.
    4. Most important thing to remember: MARTIAL ARTS HURT, because that's the original intent. I think many forget this because the fight element has been taken out of many martial arts schools so there's an assumption that there are things that can be done without causing injury. The reality is that there isn't a single Martial Arts application that doesn't have the potential to cause pain in some shape or manner. Apply the application correctly your student gets hurt. Apply the application incorrect you, or your student, or both can be hurt.

    There are more common injuries on the giving and receiving side of things. I've hurt my back multiple times in Kung Fu just from trying to do certain kicks with my left leg instead of my right leg. I've hurt by back from lifting incorrectly be it my own fault or because my opponent forced me into a bad lifting position at the same moment I tried to lift.

    Best way to show techniques and applications is to have a video example. Video examples can be edited and have the benefit of showing the best of what you can do and the effectiveness of it, without hurting anyone who is viewing the video. I keep some of my form and martial arts sparring on my phone for this purpose. Here's what we do, How we train, and the effectiveness of our training. (Form, Conditioning, Sparring).

    If they want to try stuff out give them the Easy stuff. The easy stuff is always easy to those who train in that system, but it's usually very difficult for those who have never trained in that system. So just give them the easy stuff.
     
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  18. hoshin1600

    hoshin1600 Senior Master

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    just because it may not hold up in court is not a reason to not use one. it could very well prevent a superfluous lawsuit. often people looking for free money. if they sign a waiver they may look somewhere else for their free ride because they know your going to fight it and your not a pushover. a waver is more a prevention measure than a cure after the fact.
     
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  19. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    They hold up in court here - under certain circumstances...

    They are perfectly valid and enforceable unless negligence can be shown.

    If you get thrown but haven't been taught how to land, that could be shown as negligence (unreasonable expectation).

    Not having some sort of liability agreement (waiver or not) could also in itself show negligence though.
     
  20. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    The main purpose of a waiver is three-part, IMO. Firstly, it does provide some protection, though not by it being binding - it just shows the signer was made aware of risks, which matters to some extent. Secondly, it possibly weeds out some of the insurance scammers - I've had more than one instructor tell them someone refused to sign their waiver. Thirdly, and most important for most students, it is a way to remind folks there's some risk and to get them to focus on that topic for a few moments.
     
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