Shadow Boxing vs Kata fallacy argument.

[Kung Fu Wang]

We threw as many kicks as punches. It was fun.

Agree! The term "shadow boxing" should be more general as "free technique".

In Chinese wrestling, this is "shadow boxing".

 

[drop bear]

So by your definition,

shadow boxing = punches?

Why do you want to limit the term only on punch, but not on kick, lock, or throw?

If a boxer who also trains TKD, what's wrong for him to integrate his punches and kicks?

Yeah. You can shadow box with any technique if you want.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So when you say

"It’s a pre-set séquence, and you can’t know what will come next in a real fight. “ That is true of shadow boxing and pretty much all drills, too."

It is not true of shadow boxing.
.
And this.

"you improv in shadow boxing, you're practicing a sequence that may not have application to someone's response"

Is not true of what you should be doing in shadow boxing.

Since shadow boxing is performing a sequence without input form an opponent, it absolutely does have the same issue of not being able to absolutely predict. Whether the combos in one respond to a more likely sequence is a separate question - one I expect you and I have similar views on.

 

[drop bear]

Since shadow boxing is performing a sequence without input form an opponent, it absolutely does have the same issue of not being able to absolutely predict. Whether the combos in one respond to a more likely sequence is a separate question - one I expect you and I have similar views on.

I don't know. These were the arguments you made against shadow boxing and Kata. Whether or not they apply to Kata. I haven't really worried about.

But the arguments don't apply to shadow boxing.

Nothing absolutely predicts what their oponant will do.
That is why people get punched in the face.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I don't know. These were the arguments you made against shadow boxing and Kata. Whether or not they apply to Kata. I haven't really worried about.

But the arguments don't apply to shadow boxing.

Nothing absolutely predicts what their oponant will do.
That is why people get punched in the face.

So from how I read gerry's post, and I may be wrong here (Full disclosure-I only skimmed the last few pages), the argument seemed to be about visualization. Basically how with shadowboxing, you are supposed to be visualizing an attacker and responding accordingly (something I agree with), and as a result that's not a pre-set thing since you can't pre-visualize what they'll do.

If that's right, I think kata does it, just not to the same extent. Each movement in kata is meant to first visualize an opponent, and then respond to it. The difference is that with shadowboxing, you're visualizing how the opponent will act, and react appropriately. In kata, you're informed of how the opponent will act, and how you should react to that action. Which kind of makes me think of combining padwork (where you're told x combo) with shadowboxing.

 

[wade11]

Whever I see someone dismiss katas as a waste of time, there is always someone pointing to shadow boxing. These two practises are worlds apart.

Just a few differences:

Shadow boxing is spontaenous and fluid. Kata is a choreographed sequences of moves.

Kata is rigid, Shadow Boxing is relaxed.


And on and on.. How could anyone not see that the analogy fails?

I've always understood that kata, or taolu (kung fu), are meant to be a way of preserving and passing along techniques and principals. Actually practicing the applications of those ideas in practical fighting is a whole other phase of training. I hear a lot of people criticizing the forms because they don't understand this distinction. Even worse, some people do understand, but choose to pretend that distinction doesn't exist so that they can advance their own art by spreading false claims about TMA.
Then, of course, there are all the TMA schools that no longer teach applications practically thus making the false claims look legit. I'd love to go back a couple of generations and watch how TMA was taught.
And yes, shadow boxing is completely different. I use that way of practicing all the time by firing off techniques randomly and constantly changing them.

 

[drop bear]

So from how I read gerry's post, and I may be wrong here (Full disclosure-I only skimmed the last few pages), the argument seemed to be about visualization. Basically how with shadowboxing, you are supposed to be visualizing an attacker and responding accordingly (something I agree with), and as a result that's not a pre-set thing since you can't pre-visualize what they'll do.

If that's right, I think kata does it, just not to the same extent. Each movement in kata is meant to first visualize an opponent, and then respond to it. The difference is that with shadowboxing, you're visualizing how the opponent will act, and react appropriately. In kata, you're informed of how the opponent will act, and how you should react to that action. Which kind of makes me think of combining padwork (where you're told x combo) with shadowboxing.

Yeah probably.

I have never heard these arguments against either shadow boxing or Kata. And they tend not to really be a commentary on shadow boxing as I don't think shadow boxing contains elements of prearranged sequences or of not acknowledging that their is supposed to be another person involved.

In shadow boxing you really are supposed to be defending and moving in a way that if there is another person there throwing stuff at you then you would have a reasonable chance of stopping them.

Normally the arguments I hear is things like Kata looks silly and stagnant from a real time fighting perspective. So dropping in to deep stances, doing slow stop start footwork, dropping your guard or doing some sort of jazz hands movements that have no real practical application.

Which you generally won't find in shadow boxing.

So this.

Now whether or not there is an argument for these sorts of movements being beneficial for fighting has very little to do with whether or not there is an argument that shadow boxing has movement that are beneficial to fighting.

It is a very flawed comparison.

 

[_Simon_]

When I shadowbox I go full on with my shadow. It's an intense battle, but my shadow always wins somehow... *shrugs shoulders*

 

[Acronym]

So from how I read gerry's post, and I may be wrong here (Full disclosure-I only skimmed the last few pages), the argument seemed to be about visualization. Basically how with shadowboxing, you are supposed to be visualizing an attacker and responding accordingly (something I agree with), and as a result that's not a pre-set thing since you can't pre-visualize what they'll do.

If that's right, I think kata does it, just not to the same extent. Each movement in kata is meant to first visualize an opponent, and then respond to it. The difference is that with shadowboxing, you're visualizing how the opponent will act, and react appropriately. In kata, you're informed of how the opponent will act, and how you should react to that action. Which kind of makes me think of combining padwork (where you're told x combo) with shadowboxing.

That's right. Not huge fan of padwork either but at least you're hitting something.

 

[Acronym]

I am.

What is the point in coming on to deride what is a common training method? You aren’t going to change anybody. Preaching here won’t gain converts. Nobody is going to suddenly see the light and stop practicing their kata, just because you came here and pointed out what you feel are kata’s shortcomings. All that happens is it turns into an argument between those who do kata and feel it has value, and those who do not. Nobody changes their mind about it. We have seen this discussion here over and over and over. You are contributing absolutely nothing new with this thread.

So find something meaningful to you, and pursue that. And don’t worry about what others do. That is irrelevant to you. You don’t need validation from anyone here. Pull on your big boy panties and make some decisions for yourself. And move on.

I want to read their rationale.

 

[Acronym]

ö
And with all of this i will still make the case that Bunkai is where stuff becomes ineffective because it tends to work backwards.

Bunkai is even more fascinating to me. Some of the intended applications are befuddling. I've actually asked a Karateka why out of every striking technique, a hammerfist to the top of the head would make ANY sense. That's Pink Panter level fighting, but hey it's in their kata..

 

[dvcochran]

Bunkai is even more fascinating to me. Some of the intended applications are befuddling. I've actually asked a Karateka why out of every striking technique, a hammerfist to the top of the head would make ANY sense. That's Pink Panter level fighting, but hey it's in their kata..

In application, it is to the back of the neck, after the person has fallen forward.

You know what they say about the word 'assume' don't you?

 

[Flying Crane]

I want to read their rationale.

I’m not convinced. But that doesn’t matter.

 

[drop bear]

Bunkai is even more fascinating to me. Some of the intended applications are befuddling. I've actually asked a Karateka why out of every striking technique, a hammerfist to the top of the head would make ANY sense. That's Pink Panter level fighting, but hey it's in their kata..

And Another place where this comparison breaks down.

Why did you throw that punch?

Oh because I do it in shadow boxing.

 

[Acronym]

In application, it is to the back of the neck, after the person has fallen forward.

You know what they say about the word 'assume' don't you?

 

[dvcochran]

That is why I said "in application". I never referred to an old static photo which is clearly staged. Look at how the striker is standing; not at all in any kind of en garde position, and when do you ever catch someone in such a defensive pose?

 

[Acronym]

That is why I said "in application". I never referred to an old static photo which is clearly staged. Look at how the striker is standing; not at all in any kind of en garde position, and when do you ever catch someone in such a defensive pose?

It's from a curious section titled Bunkai in a Karate instructional

 

[JowGaWolf]

Late to the game, read almost all the post. Got lost.

Here's my perspectives of shadow boxing and Kata /forms. It's the reality that I train with. Shadow boxing can be just as useless as Kata. I'm saying this from the perspective of having to train students how to shadow box. But before I get into that, Shadow boxing requires sparring experience to be any good at shadow boxing. You have to have an idea of how people punch, kick, and try to attack you. Being in a real fight doesn't help because you most likely won't remember much after adrenaline kicked in. You'll either remember that you won or got your but kicked. It's a real fight, so you aren't focusing on how you are being attack. How every sparring allows you focus on such things without getting beaten up. Now here's what happens in my experience.

When I taught students how to shadow box doing Kung Fu, It required that they have some kind of visual reference of someone in front of them trying to kick and punch them. If the person has never sparred against someone then it's impossible for that person to do Quality Shadow Boxing. Shadow boxing on a "blank slate" is exactly like doing kata. It practicing techniques outside of the context of an attacker in front of you.

When I taught sparring classes, there was always 3 or 4 types of students in sparring class.

1. Student who never sparred - They never had the visual reference to put together a good and realistic shadow boxing drill. Most of the combos that they did were unrealistic and not true to how a people move in general when fighting.
2. Students who have a sparring reference - These students had an easier time to with shadow boxing. You can see where they make mistakes against their opponent because they will usually stop look frustrated and then start over to work out the problems.
3. Students only there for the work out - Sparring classes were significantly harder than normal classes. There were rarely rest breaks more than 30 seconds. Tired of punch, do squats. Tired of squats, do push ups. If one body part was resting, then it was only because we were working another body part.
4. Student who didn't quite believe me and wanted to do things their own way. These students had sparring experience but failed to visualize. Realistic contextual visualization is the most important part of shadow boxing. If your mind can't imagine the movement's of a person and the mechanics the shadow boxing isn't going to be any good for you. These students had the slowest learning and you often see them do things in shadow boxing that they don't do in sparring. For me these students are often a waste of air. You tell them one thing and they do something totally different. If you tell them to do the thing that they are doing, they would still do something different simply because it came out of out of your mouth. A student only has 2 chances. If they don't listen after the 2 correction of "get rid of your ego" then I don't bother trying to teach them. I let them do their own thing until they can drop their ego and actually learn.

Shadow boxing is a great tool, but there's a right way to do it and a wrong way to do it. Do it without realistic visualization and you'll discover that it is totally useless. Drop the ego and base it off a realistic visualization and you'll being to learn the roadmap to your fighting skill. Just because someone does Shadow boxing doesn't mean that they will be an better fighting. I remember when I was a kid and tried shadow boxing. I couldn't get the visualization down (no one taught me) so I thought it was stupid and useless and at time it was. It didn't work because I was 8 and doing it wrong.

For me do Kata without purpose and it will be useless to whatever your purpose is. Do shadow boxing wrong and all of your combos will be garbage.

If the purpose of Kata is this below, Then your Kata will be good. However. If this is your understanding of it facing an opponent then your shadow boxing will be useless. For those who don't know. This is the most dangerous way to enter this technique. So many things can go wrong here and the result is all the same when it goes wrong. You'll end up eating that left reverse punch. If you miss the first punch then you'll get hit with 2 punches instead of 1. The picture below is not a realistic visualization for shadow boxing.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't know. These were the arguments you made against shadow boxing and Kata. Whether or not they apply to Kata. I haven't really worried about.

But the arguments don't apply to shadow boxing.

Nothing absolutely predicts what their oponant will do.
That is why people get punched in the face.

I haven't made any arguments against either in this thread. I just pointed out what I've most often seen as the point that brought up references to shadow boxing. And, yes, the argument does apply to shadow boxing, and every other drill in existinence. The basic argument (usually made against kata and one-steps) is that you're practicing a specific progression/combo, and you can't know that's what your opponent will do next. Even if I'm just shadow boxing a jab-cross combo, the argument applies, because I'm practicing a combo, and if they - for instance - step under the jab or counter-punch, that cross probably won't be my next choice. Your reaction to it being applied to shadow boxing is rather the point, itself. That it's a sequence of moves that may or may not apply to a specific situation is not really a problem. The problem arises if too much time is spent practicing an improbable sequence that doesn't provide some other benefit.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It's from a curious section titled Bunkai in a Karate instructional

I've no knowledge at all about Karate kata, but I will point out there is much misinformation in print. Some stuff is just wrong, and that may be the case here.