Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by hoshin1600, Jan 25, 2018.
Not to mention that you are not even required to have insurance in most cases.
Agreed. If it cost me much more, I'd not do it - my location doesn't require it.
You don't 'have' to here but you'd be very stupid not to so everyone has insurance, public liability and personal for the instructors and students. Most people who work with or train children in any walk of life also get a DBS, that's a check by the police for criminal records especially for offences against children, not foolproof but still a good security. Parents won't send their children to any activity now where the adults don't have one done. Likewise insurance, we have the insurance certs on the wall for people to see, most sports organisations are similar, people won't go where there's no insurance.
You don't have to belong to an association though, most insurance companies will offer policies, the associations though negotiate cheaper policies and offer off things like the child protection training, grading books, courses etc so it would be rare for a martial arts club not to join one. sometimes they are single style most often though multi style, I guess it's the Brits natural inclination to socialism that makes us want to have the security of being together and get cheaper insurance etc.......
The insurance covers public liability...people falling down your stairs, a slate from your roof falling on a passerby etc. Loss of equipment by accident or theft and damage to the building. For students it covers them if they can't work due to being injured while training etc. Instructors the same but with cover also if they damage someone. Students pay their own insurance through the club, usually about £20 a year, very little in fact. Instructors usually have it paid for them. the whole cost isn't enormous but very worth it.
Just a note about this, if the place you are training in is being rented from a private corporation (like a sports centre) they will require you to have insurance before letting you hire their facilities.
I don't know if associations here ever provide any of that (NGAA doesn't, but I can't speak to others), so the benefits are all organizational.
That should be a requirement here if kids classes are being taught, but it isn't - some places (and perhaps some associations) require it.
Seems like a good approach. What you describe is common in other areas of business - I even remember a freelancers' association that offered group insurance policies, training, marketing, etc. But I'm not aware of MA associations that offer any of that.
That's a bit similar to standard liability insurance here, except for the coverage in case of loss of work. They'd have to get an additional short-term disability policy (I used to work in insurance, though not in the specialty areas) to cover that, and I don't even know if there is such a thing as an activity-related disability policy.
I'm not sure if you're talking about the UK or the US. The Y didn't require it from me.
I meant in the UK. Dunno how things work in the US.
In the US, all facilities should require it unless you're an employee, but many do not.
I should add that the insurance in case of disability or injury and subsequent time of work etc doesn't include any medical care because of course here it's free at point of use so no need for very expensive insurance.
I wonder how much cost is reduced because of your socialized medicine and other social benefits? Having such insurance at an affordable cost would be good. If I ran a school, I would want some kind of insurance no matter. It would not be prudent to do otherwise.
When I taught, it was first to a couple of guys in my office while in the Army, on an Army installation. No worry there. Next it was more a club setting, and we had a form prepared by a lawyer that pretty much absolved me and the location owner of everything related to being there and training there.
I think the attention to protection of children is especially good. Does the personal for instructors cover them against false allegations, or is it an injury only?
i hate insurance. its a great concept but in actual practice, the business aspect of insurance companies in the long run turns them into profit machines with no other purpose. kind of like a leach
Legal costs are covered so whether you have someone claiming against you for injury, alleging anything or you need to sue it's covered.
We have to have insurance at our club which is on military property, we used to have Crown immunity which covered all activities on Crown property but this was taken away, now military personnel can sue as well as civvies if they are injured in accidents that are fault based (for example a Royal Marine broke his back when he fell while abseiling due to the rope he had being faulty and the instructors not picking that up).
I think our insurance of all sorts is cheaper because although people do sue a bit more these days it's still relatively rare. It takes a lot of money to sue anyone here. A legal document absolving you from blame most likely wouldn't stand up in court, you have a duty of care that will most likely outweigh your disclaimer. Under UK law, the validity of disclaimers is significantly limited by the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977. Under the Act, a business cannot use a contract term or a notice to exclude or restrict its liability for negligence causing death or personal injury. In the case of other loss or damage, a disclaimer will only be effective so long as it is reasonable in all the circumstances
Abseiling? Thanks, I figured what it was but had to be sure. In the US we normally use the word reppelling.
Interesting differences in law. I think US law, given you were informed that the activity had inherent dangers (which should probably be broadly defined), and you signed a document that you understood that, and still decided to participate, that would protect a teacher in the end (unless there was something really stupid involved).
That doesn't mean the teacher might not be sued. If a plaintiff could make a case that a judge would allow, the case could still be tried. And if a jury trial, they can find for whomever they choose, for whatever reason they choose. You would be allowed to appeal on any legal technicality, if you still had money to pay your lawyer.
Sounds like your system has merits.
The basic idea here is that you understand the 'normal' risks but you are protected if the instructor is negligent or deliberately harms you or that you hurt yourself on faulty equipment including things like stairs, slipped on wet floors that weren't warned about etc. Saying it's a dangerous sport doesn't mean you don't have a duty of care towards your students.
The organization my son competes in offers group liability insurance to member schools and member schools can buy additional liability insurance at the group rates for any tournaments sanctioned through the organization.
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