Self-training vs. Formal training

[Grenadier]

As for Saturday, the mood and spirit has been destroyed by all this miscommunication; there is no point to attend now- whatever formality that should have been maintained in this thread, was lost when the giggle innuendo, mock, and even subliminal like challenge inference, was interjected by some of you

I've reviewed this thread from the start, and I would conclude that while some folks put things forth very bluntly (possibly could have used a nicer tone), that nobody was mocking, challenging, or giggling at you. Sword training is a very serious thing, and requires an enhanced awareness from the practitioner, the desire to commit one's self to the training, and to listen with an open mind, plain and simple.

Regardless of how you may feel about the situation, they are there to help you. Even those who didn't exactly sugar-coat their words, are here to help you, and want you to succeed. However, in order to succeed, it takes the desire and dedication from the would-be practitioner as well.

If the people posting on this thread didn't care about you, they would have told you to go ahead and start swinging around that poor-quality sword without any fears.

 

[Swordlady]

??(the bold).
I think you are very wrong on that- I never made any such claim......copy and paste where, and I'll never pick up a sword again.

You've admitted in a number of your posts that you have your own "workout" - which involves twirling not one, but two sharp blades. You also said you don't recommend what you do to a "beginner" - which implies that you already possess some kind of skill.

As for Saturday, the mood and spirit has been destroyed by all this miscommunication; there is no point to attend now- whatever formality that should have been maintained in this thread, was lost when the giggle innuendo, mock, and even subliminal like challenge inference, was interjected by some of you;;; and even I know that is beneath(way beneath) Aikido, and Sword discipline.
No one here admits their mistake except myself.

You are calling our words "innuendo", and suggest that we are "mocking" you and "challenging" you. I don't see that. Many of us who posted to you are studying some form of martial art. Those of us practicing a sword art take what we do VERY seriously. Studying a sword art of any kind is NOT easy, and takes years of hard work. I've only been studying for about one and a half years, and still consider myself to be a beginner. Chris (who is one of my sempai) has been studying Yagyu Shinkage Ryu for several years more than I have. But as he has said in his introductory post, training is a life-long pursuit. None of us claim absolute mastery over our art.

Tell me something: What are you trying to accomplish? You obviously do have some kind of interest in the sword arts; otherwise, you wouldn't have picked up a sword to begin with, and you wouldn't be here.

 

[Kreth]

Self-training, book training, video training, etc; are all worthless without training from a knowledgeable instructor. You need an instructor's input to address bad habits before they become too ingrained to your muscle memory.

 

[pgsmith]

I think it's time to step back and take a breath here folks. I personally have a very hard time dealing with folks who say that they are "teaching themselves Japanese swordsmanship" because that's pretty much impossible short of killing people to prove your techinique. However, Mr. Calm Intentions never asserted that he was actually teaching himself a Japanese sword art. While I believe that he is a bit arrogant in manner, he has only ever asserted that he likes to play with sharp and pointy objects. Don't really understand the attraction in that sort of thing myself, but everyone's different. So, Calm Intentions likes to play with his swords, and is obviously not interested in actually learning a sword art. There's nothing really wrong with that as long as you make sure and tell the newspapers, if you seriously injure yourself, that you have never had any training. I think that the main reason you are getting such a hard time sir, is that this is a forum for the Sword Arts, not the playing with sharp things arts. Thus the vast, and vocal, majority on here are going to seriously hammer you because they sincerely believe in the arts that they are practicing while you, on the other hand, are not practicing any. Since I love an analogy, it would be akin to me going to an airline pilot's forum and telling everyone how much I love RC airplanes. Then complaining because they all jumped on me and told me to go get a real pilot's license.

Just the way I see it, other's opinions may vary.

 

[Don Roley]

It is obvious to me that Calm Intention really was never interested in formal training and was only looking for an excuse not to go. And yes, I think it is best that he not show up to training since he does not have the outlook and spirit of a warrior and would just waste everyone's time in class.

But I have to caution him on this point....

CI, you complained about how people were down on you for the way you train and you want people to leave you alone to have fun. OK, but when you post something that we know to be dangerous and stupid (self training w/ no instructor, live blades, stainless steel) if noone steps up and says that is stupid, others who read this forum may think that it is an accepted practice. That may encourage them to follow your lead down a dangerous path.

So if you keep to valid questions, you probably will not get much grief. But if you want to tell people you do things that run counter to what people with more knowledge and experience than you know to be true, then it is a civic duty for them to tell the world that what you are doing is wrong.

If you keep that in mind, things will be calmer around here.

 

[shesulsa]

CI, you complained about how people were down on you for the way you train and you want people to leave you alone to have fun. OK, but when you post something that we know to be dangerous and stupid (self training w/ no instructor, live blades, stainless steel) if noone steps up and says that is stupid, others who read this forum may think that it is an accepted practice. That may encourage them to follow your lead down a dangerous path.

So if you keep to valid questions, you probably will not get much grief. But if you want to tell people you do things that run counter to what people with more knowledge and experience than you know to be true, then it is a civic duty for them to tell the world that what you are doing is wrong.

If you keep that in mind, things will be calmer around here.

Indeed, it is the responsibility of formally trained individuals to caution those with little or no training on the seriousness of their actions and "self-teaching" methods. It is part and parcel of receiving the training. it is, as Don Roley puts it simply, civic duty.

Peace.

 

[Calm Intention]

Indeed, it is the responsibility of formally trained individuals to caution those with little or no training on the seriousness of their actions and "self-teaching" methods. It is part and parcel of receiving the training. it is, as Don Roley puts it simply, civic duty.

Peace.

Very true; 100% in agreement. And they should leave it to that- there is a difference between that, and what has transpired here.

 

[Calm Intention]

1.It is obvious to me that Calm Intention really was never interested in formal training and was only looking for an excuse not to go. And yes, I think it is best that he not show up to training since he does not have the outlook and spirit of a warrior and would just waste everyone's time in class.
But I have to caution him on this point....
CI, you complained about how people were down on you for the way you train and you want people to
2.leave you alone to have fun
OK, but when you post something that we know to be dangerous and stupid (self training w/ no instructor, live blades, stainless steel) if noone steps up and says that is stupid, others who read this forum may think that it is an accepted practice.
3.That may encourage them to follow your lead down a dangerous path.

So if you keep to valid questions, you probably will not get much grief. But if you want to tell people you do things that run counter to what people with more knowledge and experience than you know to be true, then it is a civic duty for them to tell the world that what you are doing is wrong.

4.If you keep that in mind, things will be calmer around here.

1.touche, I love ones who know others intentions.
2.find the quote...but you won't
3.I've not promoted it- there's a sharp difference when i talk about training on your own, and weapons workouts......did I mix those, or are
you assuming again to make me look bad?
4.Not when people are being subjective & see and hear what they desire.
*Its criminal to misrepresent someone fella, have you really read what I've wrote?

 

[Calm Intention]

I think it's time to step back and take a breath here folks. I personally have a very hard time dealing with folks who say that they are "teaching themselves Japanese swordsmanship
" because that's pretty much impossible short of killing people to prove your techinique. However, Mr. Calm Intentions never asserted that he was actually teaching himself a Japanese sword art.
1.While I believe that he is a bit arrogant in manner, he has only ever asserted that he likes to play with sharp and pointy objects
. Don't really understand the attraction in that sort of thing myself, but everyone's different. So, Calm Intentions likes to play with his swords, and is obviously not interested in actually learning a sword art. There's nothing really wrong with that as long as you make sure and tell the newspapers, if you seriously injure yourself, that you have never had any training. I think that the main reason you are getting such a hard time sir, is that this is a forum for the Sword Arts, not the playing with sharp things arts. Thus the vast, and vocal, majority on here are going to seriously hammer you because they sincerely believe in the arts that they are practicing while you, on the other hand, are not practicing any. Since I love an analogy, it would be akin to me going to an airline pilot's forum and telling everyone how much I love RC airplanes. Then complaining because they all jumped on me and told me to go get a real pilot's license.

Just the way I see it, other's opinions may vary.

Not being formally trained, doesn't necessarily translate to playing.
Its quite amazing still how it reeks from the membership this disdain for my lack of training, more than any concern for my safety;; and also the deliberate avoidance of my comments that I've rarely a nick to my person with all my personal training, no kind of encouragement, etc.

Hey guy, "point sharp objects". Listen, so if I had formal training and a blackbelt, "point sharp objects" becomes o.k.? Please.

 

[Calm Intention]

You've admitted in a number of your posts that you have your own "workout" - which involves twirling not one, but two sharp blades. You also said you don't recommend what you do to a "beginner" - which implies that you already possess some kind of skill.



You are calling our words "innuendo", and suggest that we are "mocking" you and "challenging" you. I don't see that. Many of us who posted to you are studying some form of martial art. Those of us practicing a sword art take what we do VERY seriously. Studying a sword art of any kind is NOT easy, and takes years of hard work. I've only been studying for about one and a half years, and still consider myself to be a beginner. Chris (who is one of my sempai) has been studying Yagyu Shinkage Ryu for several years more than I have. But as he has said in his introductory post, training is a life-long pursuit. None of us claim absolute mastery over our art.

Tell me something: What are you trying to accomplish? You obviously do have some kind of interest in the sword arts; otherwise, you wouldn't have picked up a sword to begin with, and you wouldn't be here.

Well, where's your 'copy-paste' that I requested? You mistaked(you're last post accused me of something), and I accept that, but admit it as I've admitted my shortcomings.

You've trained less than 2years? I've said "10 years formal training" would give me proficiency!!! And I'm being criticized, called arrogant, etc.

Hmmm, no apology, no copy or paste of my so-called comments of 'being equal'.

 

[Calm Intention]

If you're going to allow some misconstrued innuendo prevent you from undertaking real martial arts training, you're simply looking for excuses. If you truly want to learn, quit jabbering about it and do it.

What are you talking about? Did you/can you...read the thread?
I was invited to an event(or a class),, and that has nothing to do with joining a school.
Its amazing how everyone assumes so much here.

"my advice": in battle, never assume.

 

[Calm Intention]

If that's all that it takes to discourage you, then it is perhaps for the best. Sword training can be very frustrating and is often discouraging. You most likely would not have worked out long term anyway, and short term students are more harmful to a dojo than they are helpful.

So knowledgeable Charles.
One thing I do know, I hope you are not someones Sensei- you've the wrong attitude yourself, and would inject/implant negativity in your students.

Actually, I've probably more the 'martial attitude' than most you know(though me lesser self is not displaying such here--- I even know it).

*just want to thank all again for your subjectiveness, and splicing my earlier comments to suit your personal agenda.

 

[Don Roley]

.I've not promoted it- there's a sharp difference when i talk about training on your own, and weapons workouts......did I mix those, or are
you assuming again to make me look bad?

You don't seem to understand, people like you should not be working out at all with a live blade unless it is under the direction of a qualified instructor. So when you talk about using a real sword, we have to do our civic duty and tell you and the world just how bad an idea that it.

FYI when you say, "Not being formally trained, doesn't necessarily translate to playing" we know that you are playing. The sword is something that takes the right attitude. The attitude you have shown here and your eagerness to grab any excuse to go to real training is clear to all of us.

And I can understand why you want to think that you are somehow qualified and full or warrior spirit, but speaking from my greater experience you still lack even the basic attributes needed and I doubt you ever will. If you really don't care what we think about you, why do you keep posting?

 

[pstarr]

If you want to learn, go to a good school and train. Hard.

If you want to play, buy a toy sword and play.

Don't confuse the two-

I have nothing else to say at this point. You either have what it takes to make a commitment and learn, or you don't.

Here endeth the sermon.

 

[Lisa]

MODERATOR WARNING:

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

Lisa Deneka
Senior Moderator, MartialTalk

 

[Grenadier]

You've trained less than 2years? I've said "10 years formal training" would give me proficiency!!! And I'm being criticized, called arrogant, etc.

CI,

We're beating a dead horse here, so I'll simply get one last clubbing in, and move on.

First, and foremost, you're selling yourself a bit short here. A student who has an open mind, and is willing to dedicate himself to learning a sword art from a good teacher, doesn't need 10 years to "get it."

Even a relatively small amount of formal training will beat out any number of years of self-training.

You would be amazed at what formal training can accomplish, compared to self-training. Even if someone has only had a few months of honest to goodness, formal training in a sword art (be it Iaido, Kenjutsu, Kendo, Fencing, etc), they're going to be MUCH better off than someone who was swinging around a sword for 10 years, and didn't have someone to guide him.

If a dedicated student had trained for a year, and had shown good proficiency and responsibility, then I'd have no problems with that student training at home, as long as the training was a rehash of what was learned in the dojo. I would not, however, want this student trying to invent new things on his own.

It's just like the empty hand training. I tell students to punch, kick, block, and move in a specific manner. Once they learn how to do this, then I don't have any qualms about their practicing at home, as long as they follow the path that I gave them. However, if they deviate from the course, and start practicing incorrect techniques that they "discovered" on their own, then that's where I'll explain to them, that their self-training is doing more harm than good. Ask yourself this: If I didn't tell them that their "self-trained" techniques were incorrect, would they ever learn in an expeditious manner?

CI, I wish the best of luck to you, but do hope that you will listen to the others (who have given you excellent advice), and at least start on some sort of formal training, if you want to learn how to use a sword. I really don't have any particular preference as to what you should learn (nor should I, since it's your choice), but there are opportunities near you (and excellent ones at that). You're located in an area that has a legitimate JSA school, as well as many, many schools dealing with Western fencing.

Please start somewhere, if you want to use a sword.

 

[shesulsa]

Calm Intention,

It is extremely unfortunate that you can't see that the following of civic duty - not just to inform you of the error of your attempt at training, but the insistence that you understand exactly how dangerous what you are doing is - is at the core of all replies to you. I think you are caught up in the words and refuse to see the forest for the trees.

It's also too bad that rather than open your mind to understanding how adamantly other experienced students and swordsmen have stated their required position in ths matter, you have chosen to turn tables and point an unexperienced, unknowledgeable finger at others who are here to help you.

It is this particular posture which usually exposes that one is not a student by choice and, hence, not a peer (or to use your word, 'equal').

You are not the only person to come forward admitting "self-training" with swords who has been so admonished as well.

I will no longer engage in this discussion other than to say I hope for your enlightenment and proper training as well as your safety.

 

[Andrew Green]

This thread is reminding me of Darwin awards....

For a laugh, here's some sword related mishaps:

http://www.tsuki-kage.com/darwin.html

Seems these pointy things are dangerous... who would have thought?

 

[Charles Mahan]

So knowledgeable Charles.
One thing I do know, I hope you are not someones Sensei- you've the wrong attitude yourself, and would inject/implant negativity in your .

I am not an instructor. I will lead the occasional class when sensei is unavailable, but I'm not an instructor no. That said, I've been training for around 9 years now and I've seen a lot of people come and go. Training can be very frustrating and discouraging for most people. Only those able to deal with the disappointment and have the fortitude to continue training even when things seem hopeless stick around long term. You were discouraged very easily from attending class. Some faceless folks on the internet encouraged you to stop messing around and going to class. Your feelings got hurt and you decided not to go. These are not the actions of the kind of person who sticks around long term.

I'd be happy if you proved me wrong. Got into class, joined up and trained for a good 30 or 40 years. It just doesn't seem likely based on your comments of not having time to train properly. Not really caring if what you do is legit or not. You just don't strike me as the kinda chap that sticks around long term. That my opinion, or truly the opinion of any of us, means anything to you doesn't strike me as a good sign either. Looking for external validation is not a good idea when you are training, let alone when you aren't.

Don't tell us you don't care what we think when you're still making posts to "clear your good name" so to speak.

 

[Calm Intention]

FYI when you say, "Not being formally trained, doesn't necessarily translate to playing"

1."we know that you are playing". The sword is something that takes the right attitude.
2.The attitude you have shown here and your eagerness to grab any excuse to go to real training is clear to all of us.

3.I can understand why you want to think that you are somehow qualified and full or warrior spirit, but speaking from my greater experience
4.you still lack even the basic attributes needed and I doubt you ever will. If you really don't care what we think about you, why do you keep posting?

1.If I were playing(as you say), and you've read my range of workout,
why do I employ at least a selection of 8 weapons, practice in doubles,
have barely ever suffered a nick to myself(though I've dropped at
times....can't stop gravity), have been doing this for a number of
years, etc. Where is play involved?
*this is my meditation to me, and one of the few things that gives
me peace of mind,, it is my personal discipline too

2.I certainly have had 'attitude' here, and have embarrassed myself too.
But my 'wrong attitude' here, would not translate to the dojo
*I've claimed a reason as why the dojo might not be possible for me-but
everyone knows my reason better....go figure.
*attendance on Sat is out for reasons I mentioned before

3.This is exemplarary of what I define as antagonistic like comments being
selectively tossed in. Language is nuanced, and I'm not so certain
that I obfuscated myself to the point where I can't be better
understood, so comments like yours aren't made

4.I keep posting because I feel there is something wrong when the type
of individuals I've had the most respect for in my adult years(especially
the discipline the members in this forum practice), are taking me to
task in the manner that I see, and not leaving the criticisms where
they should be.
I really should've practiced my own discipline and walked away from
this earlier.
*my attributes?? I'll leave now on that one, because again, thats
like a thumb in my eye.