Self defense question / situation

[Egon]

Well here is one real life problem, possibly interesting for those interested in self defense.

So, we have problems with our neighbour. Not just my family, whole building, sometimes whole block of buildings. He is 45-50 years old guy. Punk, totally punk, probably have no happiness in life and it often looks like he is trying to take it from others.

Bullying, that's what it is. Psychically, most of the time. When you are working in the garage, he is yelling and threating about killing you because of why you making noise. Parking car late at night in public parking, same. Giving him a look, even nice, "what the fu** are you looking at".

When building manager told him that he has to pay for garbage services as all apartments does, he beated him. He beated also school manager when he punished his kid for not having clean shoes for school.

Not so far away (5 minutes walking) we have two playgrounds for children and adults, so it can be peace in the yard. But his children plays just and always in the yard and yelling and screaming. For even trying to please them to go to playgrounds results in assault or threatening. Last week his children were standing in front of a building and cursed to passengers..nobody said a word. And so on..

Clearly this is one disfunctional male adult and whole family, dangerous for his surroundings and for himself probably.

This guy is a freaking strong as a bull. Served military, trained kickbox and box for last 20 years. Working as a bouncer in club where police doesn't come in without special units. And in his eyes you see that he will go to the end..so no, you don't want confront him by no means.

What's with the law.Police was coming first 10-15 times, but then they say actually they can't accuse him for anything because "he is bully" simply isn't enough. In past few years he did few physical assaults and was punished with month jail. Now police even doesn't want to come no more neither we call them.

I know this is kind of situation with no good solution. Some families even moved because they were enough of that.

Where is my self defense here? I am trying to be neutral as possible. When passing him by trying to look away and by no means give him reason to attack me or say anything to me. And doing it for few years, successfully.

If I had family I would move because I know that, if he touched my children or wife, I would do something stupid and finished this all horror. To good I am moving from here in less then a month.

Just don't say I would beat him because, not just that it isn't good solution, and solution of one healthy adult, but because when you saw him you wouldn't. Not just he is strong, simply you see in his eyes he will go to the end and after that you are not anymore "fix this like a man".

*

So maybe some good material for discussing self defense at it's preventive and psychicall level.

Did you had similiar situation, how you dealed with it, and how would you act having him as a neighbour.

 

[lklawson]

Well here is one real life problem, possibly interesting for those interested in self defense.

So, we have problems with our neighbour. Not just my family, whole building, sometimes whole block of buildings. He is 45-50 years old guy. Punk, totally punk, probably have no happiness in life and it often looks like he is trying to take it from others.

Bullying, that's what it is. Psychically, most of the time. When you are working in the garage, he is yelling and threating about killing you because of why you making noise. Parking car late at night in public parking, same. Giving him a look, even nice, "what the fu** are you looking at".

That's verbal, not physical. But even verbal, if it's believable can be illegal. Document the threats. Keep a log and note the time, place, and threat. File a (another) complaint with the Police. Get a Restraining Order (they're worthless paper but it will create a paper trail for you in case you need to show it for future court defense).

When building manager told him that he has to pay for garbage services as all apartments does, he beated him. He beated also school manager when he punished his kid for not having clean shoes for school.

This is called "assault" and it's highly illegal. Press charges and throw the guy in jail.

Not so far away (5 minutes walking) we have two playgrounds for children and adults, so it can be peace in the yard. But his children plays just and always in the yard and yelling and screaming. For even trying to please them to go to playgrounds results in assault or threatening. Last week his children were standing in front of a building and cursed to passengers..nobody said a word. And so on..

So let them play in the yard. What's the big deal with that?

This guy is a freaking strong as a bull. Served military, trained kickbox and box for last 20 years. Working as a bouncer in club where police doesn't come in without special units. And in his eyes you see that he will go to the end..so no, you don't want confront him by no means.

So, if you can document this, it represents Disparity of Force.

What's with the law.Police was coming first 10-15 times, but then they say actually they can't accuse him for anything because "he is bully" simply isn't enough. In past few years he did few physical assaults and was punished with month jail. Now police even doesn't want to come no more neither we call them.

Keep calling them. It's their blasted JOB!

Where is my self defense here?

A gun.

Seriously.

That's why you keep calling the cops. Keep the log of threats. Get a Restraining Order against him. These are all legal evidence that the jerk is a physical danger to you. As much as possible avoid him (it's impossible, but try). Get a Concealed Carry Permit, a gun, and training in how to use it. If you are attacked, attempt to retreat and, if retreat is impossible, shoot him. If it is truly as you describe, then the man is a menace and a genuine threat of serious bodily harm or death to you. That exact scenario is the reason God invented weapons. Weapons are a Force Multiplier that allows someone smaller, weaker, and less skilled to equal or exceed the advantage of the stronger, larger, and more skilled.

Not everything can be solved with "unarmed self defense." That's movie BS.

Good luck, man.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Move.

 

[Instructor]

Yeah....if it gets physical you could always hose him down with pepper spray...but the gun is better...way better.

 

[WC_lun]

You are talking self defense, not revenge on a jerk. You say you have a month left before you move, so keep doing what you are doing. Self defense is not putting yourself in situations that you have to fight. If he puts his hands on you, then you do whatever you have to do, then call the cops and pursue an assault charge against him. If he threatens you then as said document it. More importantly, have witnesses document it too.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I have a feeling that Egon is not located in the United States. I therefore doubt that restraining orders / guns are going to be a real solution for him. And even if it was, I suspect that given his description of the situation, if he brought a gun into play with this neighbor, he'd have to use it. Frankly, I don't think that's outstanding advice, but you guys do what you want.

 

[oftheherd1]

The OP's English makes it appear he is not a native English speaker. His description of his surroundings make it sound like he is not in the USA. But even if he were, where in the world do so many of you come off telling him to get a gun and shoot this man? I have a better idea, don't encourage the OP to do it since he isn't likely to, not having done it already; rather, find out where he is and go do it for him. One of you take the hardships that are likely to come, even if you shoot in self defense. If you were speaking tongue in cheek, remember he does not appear to be a native English speaker, and may not understand that was your intent. If you think the OP is a troll, say so and why.

Sorry for the rant, but only a little. What is going on? Most of the time here in MA we encourage people to take the high road. Bill and WC__lun have the only really good advice, to do what he appears to be going to do anyway; survive and move. The police don't seem to be any help. Depending on where he lives, that may be understandable. Some countries don't have police forces that get too excited until someone gets physical.

Anyway, I would encourage everyone to reconsider what they are suggesting, and try to be more positive.

 

[kodora81]

Egon - it sounds like you're living in an apartment building of sorts? Has there been any attempt by building management or the landlord to remove him and his family (especially considering he was assaulted)? I'm not sure what country you're from, so I'm not sure of the legal recourses available to you.

But if you're asking about physically defending yourself physically, I'm not sure there's much you can do against someone who sounds like a psychopath. If you've been living with him for time with no physical confrontations, I'd say keep doing what you're doing and avoid him at all costs. If you're moving soon anyways - even better, and don't look back.

As for what *I* would do if it were my neighbour? Well, I'm not in any position to defend myself against a much larger man with violent tendencies. Regardless of my martial arts training, I know my personal limitations. But I'd be on the horn with the police in EVERY instance of criminal activity, and I'd be reporting every single incident to my landlord, complete with written documentation. Basically, I'd do whatever I could to assist in getting this guy the boot from the building complex. I realize that this may have already been attempted and was unsuccessful in your case, but I know that where I'm from this kind of behaviour wouldn't be tolerated for long.

 

[Egon]

I know very well what to do. I am adult and mature to deal with it mature should; but some here seems not to be!! I posted question and described whole situation too see what others would do; more then asking for advice.

And I got advices like I posted to some gang forum - buy a gun! If this is how you point a way to people that trust your advice? To good I didn't neither I plan.

Actually it's hard to believe that on martial arts forum, which I believed to be mature, somebody gets a response - buy a gun.

Yes, America isn't center of the world and I am not in America. I will never understand how you American people everytime acting like everyone is from America, on international forum. Here isn't allowed to posses a gun, about carry and use of it better not to think. Solution is simple, survive and move.

And to those self defense masters, if I had to use any weapon against this men, it would be a knife. Because it's more effective weapon in close contact fights. But using any weapon is stupid because once it's out, you have to use it, and when you are using it you may end up in jail which is bad, or someone can pull out bigger knife or gun (which wouldn't be suprise with this guy.)

For those that posted bad answers, this was shame!

@Iklawson

Police here doesn't work as you think it does. Neither judges does, neither laws. Only thing I can document about him is being in army, but political parties here are really much on the side of war veterans so that would be even worse for me at the court. Of course political parties here rule the court. Corruption, it lives here.

We tried to move him but state is out of giving apartments (because veterans of war and social cases got all of them) and they can't get throw him and his familiy on the street.

 

[pgsmith]

I posted question and described whole situation too see what others would do; more then asking for advice.

I feel for you in your situation. It seems to me that you are doing the only smart thing to do, which is to avoid the fellow until you can move. However, you did ask what others would do, so you have no cause to get upset when they say they would get a gun. If you lived in Texas where I do, that's exactly what I'd suggest. In fact, I know someone that did just that in a very similar situation. But that is obviously not an option in your situation, now that folks know more about it, so I hope that your solution works out for you.

 

[Cyriacus]

Keep doing what youre doing.

Also, while youre at it, tell as many people as you can so that if he lays one hand on you you can bring the police down on his head with an iron fist.
The more people who know, the better. Hell, video tape him (But dont let him see you do it).

 

[Instructor]

And when you move and your next residence has a similar bully? What then, move again? Sad to say the world has scores of them.

 

[lklawson]

I know very well what to do. I am adult and mature to deal with it mature should; but some here seems not to be!! I posted question and described whole situation too see what others would do; more then asking for advice.

And I got advices like I posted to some gang forum - buy a gun! If this is how you point a way to people that trust your advice? To good I didn't neither I plan.

Actually it's hard to believe that on martial arts forum, which I believed to be mature, somebody gets a response - buy a gun.

Yes, America isn't center of the world and I am not in America. I will never understand how you American people everytime acting like everyone is from America, on international forum. Here isn't allowed to posses a gun, about carry and use of it better not to think. Solution is simple, survive and move.

And to those self defense masters, if I had to use any weapon against this men, it would be a knife. Because it's more effective weapon in close contact fights. But using any weapon is stupid because once it's out, you have to use it, and when you are using it you may end up in jail which is bad, or someone can pull out bigger knife or gun (which wouldn't be suprise with this guy.)

[snip]

@Iklawson

Police here doesn't work as you think it does. Neither judges does, neither laws. Only thing I can document about him is being in army, but political parties here are really much on the side of war veterans so that would be even worse for me at the court. Of course political parties here rule the court. Corruption, it lives here.

We tried to move him but state is out of giving apartments (because veterans of war and social cases got all of them) and they can't get throw him and his familiy on the street.

Look, what else is there to tell you, dude? You set up a situation where you are at a massive physical disadvantage. You have no hope of surviving in the situation you have described. Your only two choices are 1) Leave the situation 2) Use a tool which evens the odds for you (aka: a weapon).

That's it.

You've said that you are going to leave but want an option for what is available until then. Well, that's pretty much it. Either hide or use a tool. I know you don't like either choice but you don't have a lot of choices.

You specifically complain about being advised to purchase a gun and get proper training for it. Well, friend, a firearm is the most effective Force Equalizing tool that mankind has ever invented. Of course when a self defense tool is recommended, we're going to recommend the most effective one first. That's not immature, as you claim, that's simply smart. And, frankly, speaking as a knife expert, a firearm is a more effective weapon than a knife. Yes, knives have lots of advantages, but the advantages offered by a firearm generally trump the knife. This is why every military in the world has given up knives and swords as the primary Infantry weapon and switched to guns. Quite simply, guns are a more powerful Force Multiplier.

You specifically complain that the replies are U.S. centric, that the replies given (here I assume you mean me in particular) fail to assume that you may not be in America. Well friend, although we do have a good number of international members here (some notables, in fact), frankly, it shouldn't surprise you that on a web forum started by a U.S. Citizen, hosted by a U.S. firm, with a primarily English Language base, is mostly U.S. citizens. In other words, you posted to a mostly U.S. populated forum and are surprised that you get U.S. centered answers? To make matters worse, we still have no idea where you are actually posting from. It may surprise you to know that I actually did check your profile trying to ascertain where you are from. You didn't note it in your profile and you have left no clue in your original post (OP). Perhaps if you want the readers to be specific to your location you might have included in the OP some sentence which reads, "Hi, I'm from [xxxxx] and I have this problem." And maybe also, "I know some may suggest that I use a firearm but the gun laws here in [xxxxx] make that not an option for me." This way we could better tailor advice to your specific situation. Ask a generic question, get generic advice.

For those that posted bad answers, this was shame!

I'm beginning to think that you have a misunderstanding of what Martial Arts are and how they work. Martial Arts aren't magic and, regardless of what you may have been told, size and strength do matter, a great deal.

I'm sorry that we didn't have the answers you were looking for.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[WingChunIan]

You shouldn't have to move and it probably won't solve the problem, as if the authorities are housing this kind of person in the types of places that you can afford to live in then you are likely to encounter someone similar or worse. If what you're doing is working then keep doing it. I'd advise you to mentally rehearse what to do if it ever gets physical so that you don't freeze, you have the perfect opportunity because you know the potential assailant. If it does become physical my advice is to do as much damage as you can as quickly as you can, and I mean serious damage. Not only to end the situation in your favour but also to prevent recriminations. Individuals like the one you describe won't take being out done lightly and will look for revenge if they think you got lucky, your only option is to hurt him so badly that he is in no doubt that coming back for another go is a bad idea. If you're lucky he's a bully and will look for easier victims, if not you will make him think twice and possibly gain his respect. If he does threaten you with revenge then you have two options (other than moving) tell him that you've told the police and they are watching you emphasising that any assault will see him in jail for a long time or out bully the bully. Tell him that you've messed him up once and if he comes back for more you'll do worse to him, you'll call in your bad *** mates, and that you'll torch his flat leaving his kids homeless etc etc you don't actually have to do it just make him think you're a bigger psycho than he is. I've seen both approaches work and I've both approaches go horribly wrong. I sympathise as its a horrible situation to be in. I hope you manage to keep your head down until you move but feel bad for those that still have to live there.

 

[lklawson]

The OP's English makes it appear he is not a native English speaker.

As are many here in the U.S.

His description of his surroundings make it sound like he is not in the USA.

It sounds exactly like many of the Apartment Complexes and Projects here in the U.S.

But even if he were, where in the world do so many of you come off telling him to get a gun and shoot this man?

First off, "where do you come off"??? Ya really want to roll that way? OK, anyway, no one told him to just shoot the guy. No one is advocating murder. Is that what you think? The specific advice has been to only use a gun in Self Defense. See, the problem is that the OP has described a situation where he has every physical disadvantage, no hope at all of evening the Force, and is in fear of Grave Bodily Harm or Death due to the Disparity of Force. Frankly, this is the exact point of a weapon. To negate the Disparity of Force. And, of course, Deadly Force should only be used when in fear of grave bodily harm. I thought that was perfectly clear when I wrote:

"Get a Concealed Carry Permit, a gun, and training in how to use it. If you are attacked, attempt to retreat and, if retreat is impossible, shoot him. If it is truly as you describe, then the man is a menace and a genuine threat of serious bodily harm or death to you."
​

So frankly, I "get off" recommending someone use a weapon capable of Deadly Force when they are 1) Under fear of Grave Bodily Harm or Death 2) Have no other recourse.

I have a better idea, don't encourage the OP to do it since he isn't likely to, not having done it already; rather, find out where he is and go do it for him.

Ummm... What? Are you suggesting that one of us (me I assume?) who recommend using a Force Multiplier for self defense against grave bodily harm or death go be someone's unpaid body guard? The guy was asking for advice. I gave the best advice I have.

One of you take the hardships that are likely to come, even if you shoot in self defense. If you were speaking tongue in cheek, remember he does not appear to be a native English speaker, and may not understand that was your intent. If you think the OP is a troll, say so and why.

I certainly wasn't speaking tongue in cheek. I'm completely earnest here. In situations such as he has described, using a weapon for self defense is completely reasonable. I don't think anyone has suggested he's a troll.

Sorry for the rant, but only a little. What is going on? Most of the time here in MA we encourage people to take the high road.

What "high road?" Being dominated and physically threatened by someone the police are afraid of? Getting beaten down or killed by someone who is bigger, stronger, and more capable? How is that morally superior? He asked for advice on how to protect and defend himself from attack until he moves. I gave him the best I know.

Bill and WC__lun have the only really good advice, to do what he appears to be going to do anyway; survive and move.

Which is fine unless he's attacked, as the OP claims the man has threatened to do on multiple occasions and has carried through with said threats on other victims. Sure, "move" sounds good to me too but how do you suggest he accomplish the "survive" part until he gets to move?

The police don't seem to be any help. Depending on where he lives, that may be understandable. Some countries don't have police forces that get too excited until someone gets physical.

The OP claims that the man has physically assaulted at least two other individuals including his building supervisor. That puts it pretty much front and center.

Anyway, I would encourage everyone to reconsider what they are suggesting, and try to be more positive.

Someone with a positive attitude who is murdered is still dead. Look, there's nothing "positive" about this. The OP describes a violent criminal who has threatened him with physical violence on multiple occasions, who has carried through with physical violence on other victims, who apparently has the local police afraid of him, who the OP admits is vastly physically superior to the him, who the OP admits that he is in fear of serious bodily harm or death.

There's no magic here. The OP says he's been threatened. The OP says that he is no match for the aggressor and believes he will be seriously injured. If the OP is attacked, what "positive" option is there available for him, exactly? It's going to be ugly. The only question is, who is it going to be ugliest for.

I'm sorry you don't like the answers, but that's pretty much what's left.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Egon]

Look, I don't want bad atmosphere here. We all should be here just to discuss and give each other advice.

I reacted bad to gun advice because, in my country (currently Croatia, sorry for not mentioning), if you shoot someone, even in self defense, it's about few years of jail if he gets killed. And no exceptions. First, civilian here can't posses (means having it at home) gun if he is not registered hunter. And I don't know any civilian that have permission to carry it around. So only by having it on the street you are guilty; if you fire it you are gulity; and if you shoot someone..

C'mon, last year in my city guy was beated almost to death by six toughs (they admitted victim was someone random). Of that six, two got three months prison and victim got sued by state for disturbing public order.

So now when you see what's a mess here with laws maybe you can understand why it was highly unreasonable for me to carry a gun. In short, defending form aggressor here and easily you are equal in front of the law.

What I think about using a gun for self defense? I think that law is one of the best things in America. Here, as in many other countries, you can't carry a weapon, forbidden by law; but as we all know it aggressors and bullys are having it because they don't care for law.

So even if we were all equal strong and fast, some are still stronger because they carry a weapon. But we are far from being equal..

I am definitely for caring a gun for self defense..but it should be last, but really last resort. And by some answers that I got, it seemed to me that some guys here are to easily at pointing and shooting gun at someone, instead of gun being they last resort; which made me feel like I am communicating with some pants-to-the-floors gang members, and allowing easy on trigger guys to posses a weapon is maybe even worse the forbidding it. And it's more worse if someone like that gives advice on martial arts forums.

But seems I wasn't right, but again from some of the first answers that could be only conclusion.

So that's why ranted some, I believe justified but however peace brothers

Gun is impossible here. I must rely on survive and move, which I would do anyway (to be honest I wouldn't move just because of him, whatever it takes). Which scares me the most, I am not easy victim at all. I look really tough and people never choose me to fight, bullys want someone easy. But this guy doesn't give a care who is he dealing with.

If I were in America, I would posses a gun to protect my and my family, because with some persons you simply can't deal unarmed. But here not. I hope this month here will past quickly, but I am sorry for other neighbours and elders here, which he bullys on daily basis.

If it comes to escalation? Well I'm going to shoot for eyes, throat, and groins. Hope it won't.

 

[Egon]

By the way today he listens Lady Gaga whole bloody day. Nobody can't tell him it's to loud.

See what I am dealing with?

Poker face, poker face.. :shooter:

 

[Dirty Dog]

So basically, you're telling us that you're in a situation where you are incapable of defending yourself empty handed or with a weapon, nor can you expect legal protection.

So basically, you're screwed. Move.

 

[Brian King]

Sometimes in some places when civilization breaks down and the 'law' is unavailable or nonexistent people have formed groups to help keep the peace. Village and street justice sometimes keeps the peace when other methods have failed. Sometimes it leads to more or an escalation of violence but not always. Not saying this is a solution to the OP's situation but many a building bully has been found at the bottom of the stairs black and blue and no one in the building saw a thing.

Sounds like a tough situation but perhaps it is a good thing if it forces the OP to move into a better situation. We can get comfortable in all kinds of situations and sometimes it takes a splash of cold water to bring us out of our comfort zone and force us into action.

Good luck to the OP -

Regards
Brian King

 

[mook jong man]

How much time would you have to do if you were caught carrying a taser and maybe had to use it?