Self defense needs to be grounded in truth to be ethical.

Kung Fu Wang

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This is also generally why TMA gets handled in MMA. Because they don't focus on a bunch of vital stuff that wins fights.
Agree with you 100% on this. One of the vital stuff is the ability to take a punch/kick.

If I get punched 100 times on my head and still standing, when the 101 punch land on my head, the chance that I may still standing can be high. If I have never been punched on the head, the 1st punch may knock me down.

Too many TMA schools don't train full contact. That can be a major issue IMO.
 

dvcochran

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I think for most people, the heel is better for lower targets (i.e. the thigh or knee), and the ball of the foot is better for higher targets (solar plexus or chin). If you're faster and more flexible, the heel becomes a more viable target higher up. It's also a more viable target close in.

Then there's the instep when kicking up to the groin or the chin.
Are you thinking of a wheel, teep, or axe kick motion? If so I agree with the lower target idea.
I was referring to a front kick. In reality, if a front kick hits a target with a lot of resistance it is going to flatten out most often.
The heel will not do this since there is no ‘fulcrum’ effect from the ankle.
The knockouts I mentioned were front kicks using the heel (bottom) from very close in.
They never saw them coming :D
 

skribs

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Are you thinking of a wheel, teep, or axe kick motion? If so I agree with the lower target idea.
I was referring to a front kick. In reality, if a front kick hits a target with a lot of resistance it is going to flatten out most often.
The heel will not do this since there is no ‘fulcrum’ effect from the ankle.
The knockouts I mentioned were front kicks using the heel (bottom) from very close in.
They never saw them coming :D

Front kicks. Lower target, or target close in, heel is better. Higher target and you usually end up sacrificing power for flexibility with the heel. Unless you're really flexible.

I can kick to the chin with my heel, but it's a lot stronger with the ball of my foot, because my foot is 6 inches lower to hit the same target.
 

Gerry Seymour

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That doesn't make it 'ethical' though as the instructors could in all good faith teach rubbish self defence believing it to be effective. That is the problem, not whether the advertising is truthful. It's also a bigger problem that the actual techniques taught.
Good point.
 

Gerry Seymour

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If for example you could just teach head movement and positioning. You would massively raise the survivability of a person in a fight regardless of their striking style.

So in a seminar you could just teach this well.
Except that particular demonstration is as fraught with problems as most others. He gives them exactly one target, so he doesn't have to worry about anything else, and they have no tools for controlling his movement. Let me add in just a heel trip, and things might change. They might not, but that demonstration wont' answer that question and isn't any truer to actual combat than most grip releases are, taken out of the context of overall training.
 

Gerry Seymour

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For every three people who grab your wrist One of them you will Not be able to break the grip with a singular skill. They are just too strong.
I've yet to find someone strong enough to overcome a proper grip release. It's an entire body against the grip, when done right, and the gripper's structure (especially the structure of the arm/grip) is upset in the process. However, even if it should fail, when done right it limits the utility of that grip and sets up other openings.

Whether the release is available or not - or, rather, when it is available - is a different question (and a valid one for every technique we learn).
 

Gerry Seymour

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While I love kicking, I prefer being in close when I fight. What we used to call "fighting in the kitchen".
Oh, sure, I may kick to close distance when that particular scenario presents itself, or let him kick in order to try and stop me, but I've always done both, and that's what works for me.

A lot of my students do exactly as you've shown, because it works for them. And that's a good thing....for them. Me...I'll be waiting in the kitchen. :)
Agreed. For me, kicks are my attempt to either close, or to keep them far enough away they can't strike, so they do the closing for me. I want inside.
 

Gerry Seymour

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I sometimes think that if I can get them to simply appreciate the complexity of the problem of "self defense" and inspire them to do their own research and start some sort of regular training... I feel like that is a win.
This.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Front kicks. Lower target, or target close in, heel is better. Higher target and you usually end up sacrificing power for flexibility with the heel. Unless you're really flexible.

I can kick to the chin with my heel, but it's a lot stronger with the ball of my foot, because my foot is 6 inches lower to hit the same target.
I can chin kick with the ball of the foot (from a full "kicking" distance - not up close). I can't get anywhere near that with my heel - maybe to chest level. Just pulling the foot back takes up too much of my (limited) flexibility. Some of that, too, is because I haven't trained the heel kick much. I really only started working it recently, so maybe someday it'll actually get within 6" of my standard front kick.
 

isshinryuronin

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If I want to develop a dependable SD skill, to use kick to stop all punches will be my #1 choice.
Good in theory, will work if it catches the puncher by surprise. But it's easy to attack and close distance while covering by stepping in with a high step, being aware of defender's weight distribution, or by using some diversion before the attacking punch. A quick kick can work as a stop-hit, but it takes speed and near perfect timing. Not something most people can consistently pull off unless the attacker is careless or slow.
 

dvcochran

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Except that particular demonstration is as fraught with problems as most others. He gives them exactly one target, so he doesn't have to worry about anything else, and they have no tools for controlling his movement. Let me add in just a heel trip, and things might change. They might not, but that demonstration wont' answer that question and isn't any truer to actual combat than most grip releases are, taken out of the context of overall training.
I didn't feel the video was even worth responding to. Why would anyone think you can teach effective head movement and positioning to a group of people who know little to nothing about self defense in a 2 hour or even 2 day class?
 

dvcochran

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I've yet to find someone strong enough to overcome a proper grip release. It's an entire body against the grip, when done right, and the gripper's structure (especially the structure of the arm/grip) is upset in the process. However, even if it should fail, when done right it limits the utility of that grip and sets up other openings.

Whether the release is available or not - or, rather, when it is available - is a different question (and a valid one for every technique we learn).
An old friend Jimmy Johnson who has passed away always comes to mind when the discussion of wrist grabs comes up. I would argue that no one could break his grip with a singular technique. To this day I have never seen arms/hands as strong as his. We used to have 'fun' using him as the uke in class and me making the point that it will sometimes take multiple counters/attacks to get job done. I often had to get down right dirty. Good times.
 

skribs

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An old friend Jimmy Johnson who has passed away always comes to mind when the discussion of wrist grabs comes up. I would argue that no one could break his grip with a singular technique. To this day I have never seen arms/hands as strong as his. We used to have 'fun' using him as the uke in class and me making the point that it will sometimes take multiple counters/attacks to get job done. I often had to get down right dirty. Good times.

Whenever one of the teenagers is giving me a hard time, I tell them I want to spar. If they think they'll win, I'll tell them "and I cheat."

The other day our Master had us doing drills on kicking shields with a partner. Usually we hold the shield in one position until a kick is done, and then move (so the kicker doesn't kick the holder when the holder moves the shield). But this day, we were supposed to move around. I kept grabbing my partner's shield and holding it in place so I could kick. I think my Master was equal parts disappointed and impressed.
 

dvcochran

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No. Almost nobody does. Because people don't really understand how self defense works.
Exactly. So how are you going to effectively teach someone (who knows little to nothing) how to position/move their head in a couple of hours?
 

skribs

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Yeah pretty much. So if you and maywhether have a jab sparring competition. Even though you are both doing the same technique. Maywhether will beat you up.

This is not because maywhether is magic but due to a bunch of back of house elements that are vital to making that technique work.

And so should you jump in the ring and get bashed. Even though you are both doing primarily the same technique. There are elements you are not doing that will loose you the fight.

This is also generally why TMA gets handled in MMA. Because they don't focus on a bunch of vital stuff that wins fights.

You will notice when TMA that does well. They have addressed these issues.

By that notion, MMA is terrible, because Connor McGregor got beat up by Maywhether.

If you set the bar at Maywhether, you've set the bar so high that 99% of professional boxers and 99.9% of professional MMA fighters won't even come close.
 

Gerry Seymour

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An old friend Jimmy Johnson who has passed away always comes to mind when the discussion of wrist grabs comes up. I would argue that no one could break his grip with a singular technique. To this day I have never seen arms/hands as strong as his. We used to have 'fun' using him as the uke in class and me making the point that it will sometimes take multiple counters/attacks to get job done. I often had to get down right dirty. Good times.
Okay, let's assume I couldn't break his grip. That makes one person, literally, I've ever found. I've tried with some pretty strong folks - much stronger than me. My point is that, done properly, the technique puts enough bodyweight against the grip that it will be rare that strength alone overcomes it.

Again, add in the chaos of a fight, and it gets harder, but that's a different matter.
 

skribs

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Okay, let's assume I couldn't break his grip. That makes one person, literally, I've ever found. I've tried with some pretty strong folks - much stronger than me. My point is that, done properly, the technique puts enough bodyweight against the grip that it will be rare that strength alone overcomes it.

Again, add in the chaos of a fight, and it gets harder, but that's a different matter.

I've gotten 4 and 5 year olds to break my grip at about 75% strength. And that's with just a few minutes practice. Hence why I think it's a good technique if you don't have much time to teach.
 
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drop bear

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By that notion, MMA is terrible, because Connor McGregor got beat up by Maywhether.

If you set the bar at Maywhether, you've set the bar so high that 99% of professional boxers and 99.9% of professional MMA fighters won't even come close.

No. It is a concept.
 
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drop bear

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Exactly. So how are you going to effectively teach someone (who knows little to nothing) how to position/move their head in a couple of hours?

I wouldn't.

This idea that you have to somehow bend reality to fit some sort of time constraint is kind of silly.

If you can't teach the skills in the time frame. Then you can't teach the skills.
 

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