Self Defense & Martial Arts Confusions and Misconceptions

[Gerry Seymour]

its the same extreme position that the guy is putting forward as being sensible,only sit with your back to a,wall, so no one can come up unnoticed and WATCH the door. That is pretty extreme behaviour

Except that you are presenting the extreme of his position, to make it sound absurd. Hence, the link.

 

[jobo]

Nope.

what you think you can changes people personality, by a couple of hours a week training

 

[Gerry Seymour]

what you think you can changes people personality, by a couple of hours a week training

What? You think reactions are an immutable part of personality? (Careful - you're getting into Psychology here. You said earlier that wasn't a component in the discussion.)

 

[jobo]

Absurd. I've seen people progress from being afraid to punch someone, to being sufficiently aggressive to make them a fun opponent in sparring (meaning they became unpredictable and willing to go on the attack). In short, I've seen people go from "freezer" to "fighter".

but there is no real danger in the dojo, you can condition them to that environment, but when some big guy wants to fight them they are all, ooo, no, run away

 

[jobo]

What? You think reactions are an immutable part of personality? (Careful - you're getting into Psychology here. You said earlier that wasn't a component in the discussion.)

no i think an ability to stand your ground and decided you are going to beat the guy to a pulp rather than back down is intrinsic.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

but there is no real danger in the dojo, you can condition them to that environment, but when some big guy wants to fight them they are all, ooo, no, run away

And your evidence of this is what, precisely?

 

[jobo]

no i think an ability to stand your ground and decided you are going to beat the guy to a pulp rather than back down is intrinsic.

in fact not backing down when you strongly suspect your going to get beaten up is a better test of if you have,warrior spirit or not

a group of blokes were pushing my sister around,it was 7 to one against me, but I attacked I put three down before they got me

 

[Gerry Seymour]

no i think an ability to stand your ground and decided you are going to beat the guy to a pulp rather than back down is intrinsic.

Which is another way of saying you think this is an immutable part of personality. While this is harder to train away for some folks (and there may even be a small population for whom it is functionally impossible to retrain), the military has made a business of retraining this reaction, with a reasonable level of success. We have a rather large body of evidence that suggests this reaction can, in fact, be changed. There's also evidence that an individual's response is not consistent across all situations - people who are usually "retreaters" become "attackers" under the right circumstances.

 

[jobo]

And your evidence of this is what, precisely?

that's what all the training is about isn't it, run away if you can,

Except that you are presenting the extreme of his position, to make it sound absurd. Hence, the link.

it is absurd, I don't have to,skit it to make it more so

 

[drop bear]

what you think you can change people personality, by a couple of hours a week training

We take people off the street and throw them in the ring in 12 weeks. You make them exeed their own expectations.

 

[jobo]

Which is another way of saying you think this is an immutable part of personality. While this is harder to train away for some folks (and there may even be a small population for whom it is functionally impossible to retrain), the military has made a business of retraining this reaction, with a reasonable level of success. We have a rather large body of evidence that suggests this reaction can, in fact, be changed. There's also evidence that an individual's response is not consistent across all situations - people who are usually "retreaters" become "attackers" under the right circumstances.

the army have a selection process where they get rid of all the,scardy cats. If fact its unlikely that scardy cats would want to join in the first place.

they do however it seems turn up at Ma schools,

 

[jobo]

We take people off the street and throw them in the ring in 12 weeks. You make them exeed their own expectations.

im not doubting that, but the people who show up at an mma gym arnt exactly representative of the general population.

or are you saying you could do that with absolutely anyone

 

[Gerry Seymour]

that's what all the training is about isn't it, run away if you can,

And how, precisely, is that evidence that one cannot change their reactions, that they will still run away (or, presumably, freeze) outside the dojo? You're purposely evading the question posed.

it is absurd, I don't have to,skit it to make it more so

And, yet, you pushed it to something well beyond what was stated. Either you don't understand what was said, or you know it's not absurd, so you create an absurd strawman to argue against. Either way, you're not doing well.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

the army have a selection process where they get rid of all the,scardy cats. If fact its unlikely that scardy cats would want to join in the first place.

they do however it seems turn up at Ma schools,

You really think they do (and always have) eliminated on that basis? What's your evidence?

 

[jobo]

And how, precisely, is that evidence that one cannot change their reactions, that they will still run away (or, presumably, freeze) outside the dojo? You're purposely evading the question posed.


And, yet, you pushed it to something well beyond what was stated. Either you don't understand what was said, or you know it's not absurd, so you create an absurd strawman to argue against. Either way, you're not doing well.

your arguing you can train them to not freeze /run away, when most of the training seems to be about running away. The,army don't train their troops to run away.they teach them to stand and fight to the last man, to die rather than run,away.
it doesn't really match what what you are,doing

 

[Tez3]

the army have a selection process where they get rid of all the,scardy cats. If fact its unlikely that scardy cats would want to join in the first place.

they do however it seems turn up at Ma schools,

Oh dear me no, ( even though I don't know what a 'scardy cat is) being afraid is important, it's what keeps us alive. The military don't want people who will rush in like idiots because they aren't afraid so end up getting everyone killed.
Show me someone who isn't scared of something and I'll show you someone who is a complete liar or a psychopath, possibly both.
brave people are those who will take action despite fear and there's a lot of people just like that. The military give people the tools to handle their fear and turn it into something they can use.
Obviously you as someone who without knowing anything about the military or the police will dispute this but your opinion holds no water because that's all it is an opinion. The facts speak for themselves.

 

[jobo]

You really think they do (and always have) eliminated on that basis? What's your evidence?

on the basis that you get interviewed to assess your personality type and then if your not up to it they throw you out cutting or after basic training.
people who ae,scared of fighting, bang noises and tanks don't get very far

 

[Tez3]

your arguing you can train them to not freeze /run away, when most of the training seems to be about running away. The,army don't train their troops to run away.they teach them to stand and fight to the last man, to die rather than run,away.
it doesn't really match what what you are,doing

I take it you have never heard the expression 'strategic withdrawal'. what nonesen of course troops are taught to withdraw, what is the point of 'fighting to the last man' if you don't have to? 7 Brilliant Military Retreats - History Lists

 

[Tez3]

on the basis that you get interviewed to assess your personality type and then if your not up to it they throw you out cutting or after basic training.

Nope. Getting yourself ready - British Army Website

 

[jobo]

Oh dear me no, ( even though I don't know what a 'scardy cat is) being afraid is important, it's what keeps us alive. The military don't want people who will rush in like idiots because they aren't afraid so end up getting everyone killed.
Show me someone who isn't scared of something and I'll show you someone who is a complete liar or a psychopath, possibly both.
brave people are those who will take action despite fear and there's a lot of people just like that. The military give people the tools to handle their fear and turn it into something they can use.
Obviously you as someone who without knowing anything about the military or the police will dispute this but your opinion holds no water because that's all it is an opinion. The facts speak for themselves.

I wouldn't describe the average,soldier as brave,

I take it you have never heard the expression 'strategic withdrawal'. what nonesen of course troops are taught to withdraw, what is the point of 'fighting to the last man' if you don't have to? 7 Brilliant Military Retreats - History Lists

they are taught to with draw on command, their whole training is to remove free will so they only follow orders. Just running,away as people are,shooting at you is frowned upon.
unless its the,Dutch army, then pretty much anything goes