Self defence situatio

Discussion in 'General Self Defense' started by Headhunter, Mar 8, 2018.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. CB Jones

    CB Jones Senior Master

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2017
    Messages:
    2,467
    Likes Received:
    966
    Trophy Points:
    253
    Location:
    Saline
    Gingers are soulless though....that’s a fact. ;)

    Disclaimer: I am part ginger
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2015
    Messages:
    5,875
    Likes Received:
    1,659
    Trophy Points:
    263
    I don't think of it as a stereotype as much as it's the mindset that is being pushed in the U.S. When I think of stereotypes I think of it as an incorrect understanding of someone or something. In the case of guns, this mindset is actually being pushed for the purpose of getting people to believe that having a gun is the only solution and it's this reason why I don't think of it as a stereotype.
     
  3. pdg

    pdg Master of Arts

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2018
    Messages:
    1,713
    Likes Received:
    430
    Trophy Points:
    123
    I never said it was logical, just that initially it had a basis which was confirmed by whatever means.

    There's very few stereotypes I put any weight behind at all (pretty much only the ones about gingers and essex girls :D)

    I shoot, and I think everyone should have some grounding in what a gun is and what it does - that doesn't necessarily make me any more (or less) 'wacko' than the cop who carries a gun for work.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  4. pdg

    pdg Master of Arts

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2018
    Messages:
    1,713
    Likes Received:
    430
    Trophy Points:
    123
    It can also be a matter of perspective.

    In the UK, we generally see the media reports of Americans saying having a gun will solve all the issues - so it becomes a reinforced stereotype.

    Having no way to verify whether that's actually a widely held view or simply a widely publicised view doesn't help.


    In the same way, there's the stereotype that Americans are generally fat, dressed in 80s pattern track suits, loud and gun obsessed. Because it's what is seen.

    I used to work in a petrol (gas) station fairly near a tourist attraction, I remember quite a few that perfectly fit that description.

    Stereotype reinforced.

    The fact that I probably served hundreds of perfectly normal Americans who just didn't stand out is by-the-by, because I don't remember them.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  5. CB Jones

    CB Jones Senior Master

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2017
    Messages:
    2,467
    Likes Received:
    966
    Trophy Points:
    253
    Location:
    Saline
    Who is pushing the mindset that you need to have a gun for when someone grabs you by the wrist?

    Who is claiming that is the only solution?
     
  6. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

    • Advisor
    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2005
    Messages:
    3,584
    Likes Received:
    797
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Huber Heights, OH
    No, it really isn't. All of the available online instruction and every instructor is teaching that the firearm is a Deadly Force option and ONLY legally applicable and morally justified when faced with deadly force or serious bodily harm.

    The idea that people carrying guns in the U.S. think that "guns are the only option" is a myth.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  7. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2015
    Messages:
    5,875
    Likes Received:
    1,659
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Stereo type is what you believe. It's becomes different when a certain mindset is pushed. For example, there is no organized push to "there's the stereotype that Americans are generally fat, dressed in 80s pattern track suits, loud and gun obsessed. Because it's what is seen." You don't have spokes people pushing this narrative. Gun Use and Gun Ownership is actually pushed on the national political scene in the U.S. The last time I checked there wasn't an organization that pushes the mindset of Generally fat, dressed in 80's pattern track suit wearing Americans.

    Once a stereotyped group starts pushing a narrative, it no longer becomes a stereotype. It doesn't mean that what they are pushing is true in general, it just means that it's no longer a stereotype. The intentional push of a mindset , belief of an organizations and some of it's members, is in itself verification of that belief. It's no longer what I believe, but what the organization pushes and what the organization states they believe.

    That's a specific and very few people push a specific. The mindset that someone will most likely push is. "What do you need to protect yourself from an attacker?" You were attacked so you would fit in this category. Martial artist push the narrative of martial arts skills, Self-defense instructors push the narrative of self-defense skills, be it unarmed or armed defense. Employeers have a different approach to this so they push the solution from the mindset of a corporation or business. For example, a business or corporation are going to tell the employees not to fight back, but to give to the demands of the attacker.

    No one carries a concealed gun with the mindset that paper targets will suddenly attack them.
     
  8. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2015
    Messages:
    5,875
    Likes Received:
    1,659
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Not everyone takes these classes, just like everyone who gets into a fight don't take a self-defense class.
     
  9. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

    • Advisor
    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2005
    Messages:
    3,584
    Likes Received:
    797
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Huber Heights, OH
    So what you're saying is that your stereotype is based on your own assumptions about what does and does not happen instead of any actual fact or examples.

    Again, the stereotype is a myth. People who carry guns in the U.S. do not have a "mindset" that the gun is the only option. Even people who are "untrained" don't believe this. No one does, because it is false on the face of it.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. CB Jones

    CB Jones Senior Master

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2017
    Messages:
    2,467
    Likes Received:
    966
    Trophy Points:
    253
    Location:
    Saline
    You use what you need based on the specifics of the attack....whether that is verbal judo, hands on fighting, or lethal force......or perhaps all 3

    Gun carriers push having all your options available instead of just some of them.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. pdg

    pdg Master of Arts

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2018
    Messages:
    1,713
    Likes Received:
    430
    Trophy Points:
    123
    Whether I choose to believe a stereotype or not doesn't qualify it as a stereotype nor disqualify it from that label.

    I happen to have it on excellent authority that not all Americans are overweight, and that other types of clothing are sold in great numbers.

    So, I don't believe it, but it's still a stereotype.

    Just like the stereotype that all Australians drink fosters and wear those hats with the corks hanging off them.

    My school french teacher was Australian, and I never once saw her hat nor her tinny...

    It's still a stereotype though.
     
  12. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2015
    Messages:
    5,875
    Likes Received:
    1,659
    Trophy Points:
    263
    What I'm saying is that stereotypes are no longer stereotypes, once it's pushed through organized efforts. Once an organization starts pushing the idea or belief becomes a message. It doesn't matter if the message is true or false. Because it's the message the organization want others to believe.

    This is not a true statement. So you can tell me that 100% of the people who carry guns in the U.S. believes this?

    Not all of them think this, which is why we have gun related crimes and killers.

    I happen to have it on excellent authority that many Americans are overweight,
    This is true and not a stereotype. The only word I changed was All to Many.
    Here are the stats:
    Source: Overweight & Obesity Statistics | NIDDK
    Fast Facts
    According to data from the National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey (NHANES), 2013–20142,3,4,5

    • More than 1 in 3 adults were considered to be overweight.
    • More than 2 in 3 adults were considered to be overweight or have obesity.
    • More than 1 in 3 adults were considered to have obesity.
    • About 1 in 13 adults were considered to have extreme obesity.
    • About 1 in 6 children and adolescents ages 2 to 19 were considered to have obesity.

    Does this mean that there aren't Americans who are fit and not overweight. Nope. But my statement never make that claim. The only thing that would make your statement a stereotype is the use of ALL.

    The only thing that would turn your stereotype into a Message. Is if you created an organization that pushed and marketed to the public that "I happen to have it on excellent authority that not all Americans are overweight, and that other types of clothing are sold in great numbers."
     
  13. pdg

    pdg Master of Arts

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2018
    Messages:
    1,713
    Likes Received:
    430
    Trophy Points:
    123
    But, that statement isn't a stereotype whether it's pushed as a message or not.

    It's simply a fact, just like saying "some Americans are fat" and like saying "some Brits wear a monocle". Some are and some do. Fact, not stereotype.

    I somewhat agree with that, with caveats.

    Something can start as a stereotype and become a message.

    But, it can remain a stereotype at the same time too.

    Using the same scenario, I can cite the stereotype "generally, Americans think carrying a gun is the best form of self defence". I can then use the message that an organisation promotes that idea to support that stereotype.

    Note that it's still a stereotype even though it didn't use "all", and it's not changed by a message or mindset being pushed.

    However, if such a campaign is successful and it convinces the majority of Americans to believe it, the stereotype of 'generally' ceases to be a stereotype and becomes a fact.

    Not until that point though.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  14. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

    Top Poster Of Month

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    15,151
    Likes Received:
    4,247
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    The stereotype is that Americans are fat (not that some Americans are fat). That's how stereotypes work - they are gross overgeneralizations, usually (not in this case) based on a broad overgeneralization of usually negative traits.
     
  15. pdg

    pdg Master of Arts

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2018
    Messages:
    1,713
    Likes Received:
    430
    Trophy Points:
    123
    Sweeping generalisations are by far the best and most entertaining kind ;)
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
  16. CB Jones

    CB Jones Senior Master

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2017
    Messages:
    2,467
    Likes Received:
    966
    Trophy Points:
    253
    Location:
    Saline
    What organization of criminals and killers is pushing the message that guns are the solution to all problems?

    The American Den Of Thieves Society?

    The Killer and Murders Guild?

    ;)
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
  17. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    15,130
    Likes Received:
    3,249
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Yet the phase God created man and Colt made them equal gets used enough.

    Talking to American gun owners they want their cake and eat it too.

    So I will hear it is only a tool when the reliance on guns to function is mentioned.

    And the horror that I can't stop ninja's raping my children when I say I don't carry one.

    And so will just flip from one end to the other depending on what they think makes them seem more reasonable at the time.
     
  18. pdg

    pdg Master of Arts

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2018
    Messages:
    1,713
    Likes Received:
    430
    Trophy Points:
    123
    Unfortunately, that's false on two counts ;)

    Skip the first one...

    Give two people guns, one will be faster and better than the other - there's no equalisation.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    15,130
    Likes Received:
    3,249
    Trophy Points:
    308
    When you look at defensive gun and compare how much time is spent using it to feel good. And how much time is used to kill baby rapers.

    You can get a gist of where the focus of gun carry is.
     
  20. pdg

    pdg Master of Arts

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2018
    Messages:
    1,713
    Likes Received:
    430
    Trophy Points:
    123
    I think I can see what you mean.

    It's like a security blanket?

    But whatever the colt marketeers meant, it's never about equalisation, it's about gaining an advantage...
     
    • Like Like x 1
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page