Self-Confidence and Chi Sao

Gerry Seymour

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It comes back to being prepared to loose. In training especially, people are scared to take risks for fear of the consequences. The confidence comes in making that leap fearlessly.

Grappling is very common for this because to advance position you often have to risk loosing position.

Loosing position means either looking like a fool or being underneath a fat sweaty guy. Or both.
I agree with this. In all areas of MA, real confidence tends to come from the experience of losing and surviving. From knowing you're actually challenging your skills, putting them to the test, and re-proving them as you do so. To do that, you have to expose yourself to the chance to lose (otherwise, you end up never really putting them to the test). And if you expose yourself to that chance enough, you're going to lose some.
 
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wingchun100

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Actually, as you correctly elaborated in this same post, poor self-esteem means you will think you do EVERYTHING poorly.

Yes, and it seems to me that if you think it long enough, you will make it true...that whole "self-fulfilling prophecy" thing.

Speaking of things a person thinks, *I* think I am long overdue to break the cycle of willing my lack of skills into reality. It is happening. :)
 

Gerry Seymour

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It's about hitting the zone man. You'll know you're there when it seems like your movements are happening though you, rather than you willing them to happen. It's like you are observing yourself. This is as true of chi sau as it is of video gaming, playing sports, many other things.

Instead of focusing on self confidence, try forgetting yourself altogether.
Self-consciousness (focusing on self, as Steve is pointing out he does) is actually directly related to confidence issues. For him, trying to not think about himself would be like asking you to not think about what your left leg is doing when it has fallen asleep and is numb, and you're trying to walk - it takes a supreme effort to focus attention somewhere else. Doing things that develop confidence is often the quickest path to losing that self-consciousness.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Yes, and it seems to me that if you think it long enough, you will make it true...that whole "self-fulfilling prophecy" thing.

Speaking of things a person thinks, *I* think I am long overdue to break the cycle of willing my lack of skills into reality. It is happening. :)
Interestingly, yes and no. It will hold you back from higher performance in some ways, and can cause some self-sabotage (giving up avoids the anticipated failure). But mostly, you'll just keep thinking you're doing awful, even when things are going fairly well. There's a confirmation bias issue here - any flaw confirms your belief that you suck, and your mind ignores evidence to the contrary (to avoid cognitive dissonance).
 

Martial D

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Self-consciousness (focusing on self, as Steve is pointing out he does) is actually directly related to confidence issues. For him, trying to not think about himself would be like asking you to not think about what your left leg is doing when it has fallen asleep and is numb, and you're trying to walk - it takes a supreme effort to focus attention somewhere else. Doing things that develop confidence is often the quickest path to losing that self-consciousness.
Yes, but it can also be a spiral down. You try so hard that every perceived failure makes you more and more self conscious and rigid.

Been there.

Sometimes it's best to just let go and BE, and from those results self confidence arises. Your milage may vary.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Yes, but it can also be a spiral down. You try so hard that every perceived failure makes you more and more self conscious and rigid.

Been there.

Sometimes it's best to just let go and BE, and from those results self confidence arises. Your milage may vary.
It's definitely best to do so at times. Unfortunately, it's also most difficult to do at precisely those times.
 

Steve

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Something I observed from watching the kids compete at BJJ tournaments is how fearless they are. Every technique, they go for it. And if it doesn't work, they don't get too worked up about it.

Fear is the mind killer. The antidote is competition. Losing in competition a lot helps you overcome a fear of losing, and success in competition helps you become confident in your skills. Win/win.

This isn't rocket science, guys.
 
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wingchun100

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Interestingly, yes and no. It will hold you back from higher performance in some ways, and can cause some self-sabotage (giving up avoids the anticipated failure). But mostly, you'll just keep thinking you're doing awful, even when things are going fairly well. There's a confirmation bias issue here - any flaw confirms your belief that you suck, and your mind ignores evidence to the contrary (to avoid cognitive dissonance).

See, this is happening in all areas of my life, which is why I say repairing self-confidence will help in general, not just Wing Chun.

Example: I do something that hurts my girlfriend's feelings. Well, I am an awful, hurtful, mean person. The double whammy comes when I say, "Gee, all she does is complain about me." However, the thing is she compliments me way more than she criticizes me. And it isn't REALLY criticism. I mean, if you do something that hurts someone's feelings, then they should have the right to tell you so you can apologize and do better in the future. (The only way it would really be nitpicky is if someone is oversensitive, which she is not.)

Then the part you said about avoiding failure comes into play. If the hurtful offense is bad enough, then I might think to myself, "Geez, I am an abusive A-hole of a boyfriend. Maybe I'm just not meant to have deep, meaningful relationships with anyone." And the urge to split occurs.

Or I should say OCCURRED...past tense. But I fought against it. I fought against running and being a coward, facing down WHY I act that way and doing something about it. The same can be done regarding chi sao, regarding why I didn't get a promotion at work, regarding ANYTHING.
 
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wingchun100

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Something I observed from watching the kids compete at BJJ tournaments is how fearless they are. Every technique, they go for it. And if it doesn't work, they don't get too worked up about it.

Fear is the mind killer. The antidote is competition. Losing in competition a lot helps you overcome a fear of losing, and success in competition helps you become confident in your skills. Win/win.

This isn't rocket science, guys.

As your quote says, your opinion is just that.

The longer you have lived with a certain fear, the harder it is to overcome.

For some people it takes longer, and the task seems more daunting. I am one of those people.
 

Steve

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As your quote says, your opinion is just that.

The longer you have lived with a certain fear, the harder it is to overcome.

For some people it takes longer, and the task seems more daunting. I am one of those people.
?? And how does that make any of the things I said less true? You lost me. I think you're reacting to things I didn't write.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Something I observed from watching the kids compete at BJJ tournaments is how fearless they are. Every technique, they go for it. And if it doesn't work, they don't get too worked up about it.

Fear is the mind killer. The antidote is competition. Losing in competition a lot helps you overcome a fear of losing, and success in competition helps you become confident in your skills. Win/win.

This isn't rocket science, guys.
Competition can be a powerful anodyne. It is not the only approach, nor the best approach for all folks. Someone with very low self-confidence will likely perform poorly in competition. That poor performance will not improve their confidence.
 

Steve

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Competition can be a powerful anodyne. It is not the only approach, nor the best approach for all folks. Someone with very low self-confidence will likely perform poorly in competition. That poor performance will not improve their confidence.
Fear of losing, fear of failure. That's the piece. Sorry I used a politically incorrect word. :)

The key issue here is one of resilience. Confidence isn't a trait; it is a by-product. It's a result. Fear is the real issue here. The only way to overcome fear of failure is to fail and realize that failure is a necessary function of growth. Success is validation; failure is growth.

I didn't say competition is the only, or even the best approach for all folks. However you fail, you need to do it.

Now, competition is the only way people can gain access to some other things. But failure is available in many ways.

And sure, it's hard. And sure, it's harder for some than others. And of course, the longer you live with fear of failure, the harder it will be to overcome it. None of that changes the situation in the least.

"Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better."
~ Samuel Beckett

"I've missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. 26 times I've been trusted to take the game winning shot ... and missed. I've failed over and over and over again in my life. That is why I succeed."
~ Michael Jordan

"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when my fear is gone I will turn and face fear's path, and only I will remain." - Maud Dib
 

Steve

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See, this is happening in all areas of my life, which is why I say repairing self-confidence will help in general, not just Wing Chun.

Example: I do something that hurts my girlfriend's feelings. Well, I am an awful, hurtful, mean person. The double whammy comes when I say, "Gee, all she does is complain about me." However, the thing is she compliments me way more than she criticizes me. And it isn't REALLY criticism. I mean, if you do something that hurts someone's feelings, then they should have the right to tell you so you can apologize and do better in the future. (The only way it would really be nitpicky is if someone is oversensitive, which she is not.)

Then the part you said about avoiding failure comes into play. If the hurtful offense is bad enough, then I might think to myself, "Geez, I am an abusive A-hole of a boyfriend. Maybe I'm just not meant to have deep, meaningful relationships with anyone." And the urge to split occurs.

Or I should say OCCURRED...past tense. But I fought against it. I fought against running and being a coward, facing down WHY I act that way and doing something about it. The same can be done regarding chi sao, regarding why I didn't get a promotion at work, regarding ANYTHING.
Sounds like you might consider that some people fear success as much as they fear failure. You mention promotion, but if I recall correctly, you did get a promotion, hated it, threw your boss and your coworkers under the bus and retreated to the comfort of a job you know doesn't even occupy your entire work day.
 
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wingchun100

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Sounds like you might consider that some people fear success as much as they fear failure. You mention promotion, but if I recall correctly, you did get a promotion, hated it, threw your boss and your coworkers under the bus and retreated to the comfort of a job you know doesn't even occupy your entire work day.

You should follow the advice that is in your profile picture. Actually I think the problem is you try to, but you just fail. And now I promptly put thee on "ignore," kind sir. Nice knowing you.

PS: To succeed at not being a dick, try to not comment on things that you know less than half the story behind. :)
 
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Steve

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Well, that escalated quickly. You shouldn't ask questions you aren't prepared to hear answered. I like you well enough to tell you the truth.

As for the avatar, it's just good advice for us all. :)
 
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wingchun100

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Competition can be a powerful anodyne. It is not the only approach, nor the best approach for all folks. Someone with very low self-confidence will likely perform poorly in competition. That poor performance will not improve their confidence.

Exactly. Failure would reinforce the feelings of inadequacy. That is why I say the solution starts with having better confidence first. How you get there is another story. For some it might mean therapy and/or meds. In the case of martial arts, it might mean doing the techniques slowly at first and building speed over time. Who's to say? There is no one path to walk!
 

Steve

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Exactly. Failure would reinforce the feelings of inadequacy. That is why I say the solution starts with having better confidence first. How you get there is another story. For some it might mean therapy and/or meds. In the case of martial arts, it might mean doing the techniques slowly at first and building speed over time. Who's to say? There is no one path to walk!
False confidence is dangerous and fragile. Confidence based on nothing is not helpful to anyone.

The key is to lower the stakes of failure and reframe failure so that it is something to seek out rather than to avoid. That can be done through therapy and/or meds. A good therapist can help a person keep failure in perspective, and medications can certainly help manage anxiety and such. But if one takes a pill to make one more confident, that's not good.
 

Buka

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Been afraid of some things all my life. No big whoop, it's just fear. Doing something about the...whatever....is what's important. Martial Arts training helps that immensely.

As for false confidence - don't really know anything about that. Never allowed it in students, haven't really been exposed to it. But overconfidence, probably have some of that. Fortunately, hasn't mattered in a jillion years of dealing with....whatever. Martial Arts training helps with that, too.
 

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