Secret techniques lost but still taught

[tongsau]

As the years progress there are many Emphasized technique taught to the martial artist in every school but for some reason the meanings have escaped the instruction.
Each school has a sort of "Salutation" representing the signature of the art. The Hanko.
In TKD there is the "double punches" in the ready stance.
Some may teach this position as a block.
Some teach it more forward than down.
Kempo teaches many positions and twists attempting to describe their art in a few moves.
What does each person feel the emphasis of their art is? and what is being taught?

-------
I offer you the modified bow of many Chinese systems. The head is not lowered to a position out of view of the opponent. It is only slightly lowered 10 to 15 degrees so that it lines up the spine. It is the most repeated movement. It is the foundational fighting posture. However many students raise their head after bowing. This would be very stupid, akin to practicing fighting with your hands tied before you begin. Since we all do this I hope you would promote this in all your schools if you don't disagree.
-There is only one martial art we study, human conflict.

 

[Autocrat]

Sorry, but you've kind of lost me.... are we merely talking about the paying of respect and aknowledgement, are we talking about the movments before performing a kata / yoy, are we talking about the vast number of movements and techniques taught with only limited explanations, or something else entirely ?

 

[Jerry]

In TKD there is the "double punches" in the ready stance.
Some may teach this position as a block.
Some teach it more forward than down.

WTF TKD traces back to Choi who created it from Shotokan. Shotokan traces back (like all Karate') to three Okinawan gentlemen who brought skills they had learned in China back home.

As best I can determine, the "ready" position in TKD is from some of the Chinese (Tibetian) Iron-shirt Qigong. It's modified a bit (apparently through apathy), but it's there. If this is the case, the use of it is as a qigong.

A block as performed that way (with the smallest bone in your arm) is a good way to break your arm.

 

[Zepp]

WTF TKD traces back to Choi who created it from Shotokan.

TKD traces back to many more people than just Choi. There are several threads on TKD's history in the TKD forum if you're interested in learning about it. There's information on this board that contradicts your statement about Shotokan's history as well.

As best I can determine, the "ready" position in TKD is from some of the Chinese (Tibetian) Iron-shirt Qigong. It's modified a bit (apparently through apathy), but it's there. If this is the case, the use of it is as a qigong.

A block as performed that way (with the smallest bone in your arm) is a good way to break your arm.

I've been training in Tae Kwon Do for more than 5 years and I have no idea what "ready position" you're talking about.

As far as tongsau's original post, while I don't think I understand what you mean by "double punches" in the ready stance, I think I do understand what you mean regarding techniques no longer being taught (though I wouldn't use the word secret). In TKD and TSD, many of the movements in the forms have alternate applications (usually of the grappling instead of striking variety). Sadly, it's hard to find an instructor that knows and teaches them.

 

[The Kai]

The idea that TKD goes back to some obscure roots in early korean arts is at best romantic thinking. TKD owes it physcal techniqques to Shotokan, whatever hisort/tradition were crafted to explain the art are another matter

Todd

 

[Zepp]

The idea that TKD goes back to some obscure roots in early korean arts is at best romantic thinking. TKD owes it physcal techniqques to Shotokan, whatever hisort/tradition were crafted to explain the art are another matter

I never said TKD's roots aren't in Shotokan. I train in a style of TKD that acknowledges this more than most. But it did not originate solely with General Choi.

 

[Marginal]

Yep. Crediting Choi alone for TKD is about like solely crediting Funakoshi for the development of Karate.

 

[The Kai]

Aha-Great Thruth well spoken!

Todd

 

[Jerry]

TKD traces back to many more people than just Choi. There are several threads on TKD's history in the TKD forum if you're interested in learning about it. There's information on this board that contradicts your statement about Shotokan's history as well.

While I certainly do not intend to imply that Choi created everything in the WTF/ITF cirriculum individually (I notice that you dropped the "WTF" from my statement in your response), the name "TaeKwanDo" was submitted by Choi, and taken officially at the inception of the Korean national art in 1955. Choi also foudned the oldest of the two major corean federation (ITF). The official body of TKD in Korea, declared by the president, was the KTA with Choi as president.

The WTF/ITF (and by extension, ATF) cirriculum is the result of the 1955 assembly, and the KTA.

The ties to Karate can be clearly seen. Several of the official WTF Poomse' are action-for-action identical to Kata which can be found in various Ryu of Karate (particularly Shotokan). The reasons are likely related to the Japanese occupation of Korea.

As to the origin of the Karate' arts, I'm not interested in the details of who went where to whom, again the similarities between Karate and several of the souther Chinese arts (including Xing-yi) are pretty obiovus if you look at them.

I've been training in Tae Kwon Do for more than 5 years and I have no idea what "ready position" you're talking about.

The original poster had no problem describing it in a manner that was easy for me to understand. It's also official WTF cirriculum. It is the first part of the the first poomse'. Google it and you;ll get about 4,000 hits. I believe the Korean name is "Narani sogi" or "Narani jumbi sogi", depending on which one we are discussing. The former is more similar to the iron-shirt postures.

You WTF? It's the starting position for "Tae Heuk Il Jang". If you are WMAA, it's the beginning of form 1.

If you are truely unfamiliar with it, I would say taht you have not been studying TKD for the past 5 years... you may want to go ask your instructor what you are studying.

As far as tongsau's original post, while I don't think I understand what you mean by "double punches" in the ready stance

I thought you didn't know what a ready stance was.

 

[tshadowchaser]

lets hear from some people in other arts what their salutation means.

 

[Jerry]

Several indo arts (including the one I study) have moving forms as salutations (showing hormat).

 

[Andrew Green]

Is it possible that a salutation can be just that, a salutation. No secret technique at all, just a salutation?

All systems have them, even western ones. Boxers touch gloves, fencers salute. But no one tries to make it into a secret technique....

 

[Marginal]

The original poster had no problem describing it in a manner that was easy for me to understand. It's also official WTF cirriculum. It is the first part of the the first poomse'. Google it and you;ll get about 4,000 hits. I believe the Korean name is "Narani sogi" or "Narani jumbi sogi", depending on which one we are discussing. The former is more similar to the iron-shirt postures.

The first poster ultimately said, "it's a fighting posture". His description of what he was attempting to discuss was gibberish. Double punches? In a ready shance?

That takes some liberal interpretation.

 

[ppko]

Is it possible that a salutation can be just that, a salutation. No secret technique at all, just a salutation?

All systems have them, even western ones. Boxers touch gloves, fencers salute. But no one tries to make it into a secret technique....

My understanding of the salutation is (first off I believe that many kata had them added to them (western civilization)), it was the favorite killing technique of the person that made up the kata. If you really look at most salutations they are very combative just have to have a little imagination.

 

[RRouuselot]

As the years progress there are many Emphasized technique taught to the martial artist in every school but for some reason the meanings have escaped the instruction.
Each school has a sort of "Salutation" representing the signature of the art. The Hanko.
In TKD there is the "double punches" in the ready stance.
Some may teach this position as a block.
Some teach it more forward than down.
Kempo teaches many positions and twists attempting to describe their art in a few moves.
What does each person feel the emphasis of their art is? and what is being taught?

-------
I offer you the modified bow of many Chinese systems. The head is not lowered to a position out of view of the opponent. It is only slightly lowered 10 to 15 degrees so that it lines up the spine. It is the most repeated movement. It is the foundational fighting posture. However many students raise their head after bowing. This would be very stupid, akin to practicing fighting with your hands tied before you begin. Since we all do this I hope you would promote this in all your schools if you don't disagree.
-There is only one martial art we study, human conflict.

Like many things in TKD that salutation has been modified.

Originally it started with feet in “bowing position” with fists in the front, then crossed right in front left in back, and then raised to the arm pits while doing this the left foot moves out to “shizentai” natural stance then sort of punched down and out to the front again with the heels of the feet move outward into a sort of sanchin stance.
This "salutation" actually has defensive applications to it.

 

[Trainwreck]

In Shaolin, the bow is done in a traditional manner kinda like the one described earlier. Salute your opponent by placing your right hand cupped within the left and raising it to your forehead as you bend down (slightly). Besides serving as a standing version of the kowtow, its fighting application is pretty much inserting a block, catching your opponent's head with your left hand, then bringing your right fist into his temples. Interesting bow, made more so by the fact that it was explained to me by a Ninjutsu instructor.

The Choy Le Fut system that I had a chance to see has a very interesting and unique bow that involves multiple long arm motions.

 

[Andrew Green]

My understanding of the salutation is (first off I believe that many kata had them added to them (western civilization)), it was the favorite killing technique of the person that made up the kata. If you really look at most salutations they are very combative just have to have a little imagination.

The macarana can be very combative with a little imagination.