Sanchin Ryu

Discussion in 'Karate' started by white belt, Aug 14, 2003.

  1. white belt

    white belt Brown Belt

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    Hello Esteemed Karateka,

    I'm a TKD Instructor / school owner in the Midwest. Recently I was made aware of a style of Karate being sold here in town called "Sanchin Ryu". The sylabus apparently is sold as "non-competitive" w/o free sparring. I have some schooling on Okinawan Karate history but, I thought Sanchin was the name of a rather important foundational kata, not an actual Ryu or style from Okinawa. The school selling this is known as a belt factory that got its inertia starting with TKD. The owner has everything but drive up windows at his schools. Is this another hot dog for the rubes or something legit that I am uninformed about. Smells fishy.

    Thanks,
    white belt
     
  2. arnisador

    arnisador Sr. Grandmaster

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    Sounds like a recently created system to me.
     
  3. A.R.K.

    A.R.K. Guest

    Sanchin is indeed a foundational Kata in Okinawan karate. Kanbun Uechi is credited with bringing this Kata from China's Fukein providence. He once stated 'to know Sanchin is to know karate'. Sanchin is also used I believe in other Okinawan disciplines although a bit different in form.

    I have never heard of Sanchin Ryu and your initial intuition may be very accurate.

    Try the direct route...ask the school owner and see what he says.

    :asian:
     
  4. Is this the same sanchin ryu that was being toted from louisiana missouri and alabama??? If it is , my teachers hgave already checked it out. They did not think it was traditional enough or legit. They only mentioned the style in passing though.
     
  5. white belt

    white belt Brown Belt

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    Thanks. Interesting observations. I'm suspecting that the multi-state commerce of Sanchin Ryu is due to it being marketed by one of the larger umbrella trade organizations. Going to the source may cause me some negative publicity locally. I am already having to convince a certain percentage of initial public contact that my agenda / criteria are not the same as some of the other schools who lean toward Tae Boism. I think it's great that people are getting some exercise, but I am one of those who thinks a black belt should not be given for aerobics. Using the name of a well known kata as a name for a new system smacks of deceitful marketing in my book. If I am wrong, time will tell and I will graciously take my lumps. Not holding my breath, though.

    white belt
     
  6. punisher73

    punisher73 Senior Master

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    Hello all,


    I actually came across this post/forum by accident, so this is my first post here. I have been a student of Sanchin-Ryu now for 10 yrs so I can answer (hopefully) any honest questions you have, and also try to address those already asked. A little about myself, I have been in LE/Corrections for 7 yrs now, and have been certified in PPCT and PPCT spontaneous knife defense. Also have some training in Aikido/Judo/BJJ. I have also informally studied many striking arts. I have used Sanchin-ryu many times both to deescalate situations as we are taught, but also the physical techniques to take control of a situation.

    1) Yes, Sanchin is the name of a foundation kata in many Okinawan styles. The reason the name was chosen for the style is it represents the 3 approaches used in techniques and strategy (physical, mental, emotional or what some call spiritual).

    2) Yes, it is a fairly newer style. It has been around for almost 30 yrs now. The founder had studied both formally and informally many styles while growing up and combined them with his experience in confrontations to create this new approach (he has been studying MA's for now around 50 yrs). After he declared it as a formal style he was challenged by many people who did not feel he could do so and when he first started would take on all challenge matches and did not lose one of those (this was relayed to me by someone who worked with him but was not yet a student and was witness to many people showing up to his job and issuing the challenges).

    3) The "umbrella" organization that oversees the operation of Sanchin-Ryu has been run as a nonprofit organization since it's beginning. Therefore, there are NO FORMAL DOJOS OR SCHOOLS. ALL classes are run through community education programs to make it accessible and affordable for anyone to study. And there were times when I was in college and had no money and was told to keep coming anyways and not to worry about the money. If this place has and actual building/dojo where students go please let me know since they don't have any formal dojos (also what state are you in if you don't mind my asking).

    4) This is not a "belt factory" type style. It takes on average 4-5 yrs to reach black belt level. There are only 6 kyu ranks in between white and black and the promotions range from $15 from the first rank to $40 or $50 to black belt so again they are not adding lots of ranks or high costs to make money.

    Again, if this place actually has a drive up School that he has PLEASE let me know since I don't think this is an actual school but someone who might have just taken the name of the style. Also if you want please email me in private with this information if you don't feel comfortable airing it in public (khirakis@aol.com).
     
  7. S. Malanoski

    S. Malanoski Guest

    Hello,


    I am new to this site, and really do not want to come off like a troll, however:

    Are those in SanChin Ryu cognaisant of the fact that the central part of their logo, which is highly advertized for sale on their site, and obviously used by their members,is in fact a reproduction of the charcole drawing done by the famous Roy Colonna of my teacher "Peter Urban, founder of USA / Urban GoJu," and that this artwork is the property of my teacher and can only be used as such with the permission of my teacher and or the Tuttle publishing company, as this artwork was made for, used in, and copyrighted, in it's use in my teacher's book The KaraTe DoJo?

    Once again, that logo that you are using is a drawing of Peter Urban, and is protected by copyright.

    As far as I can see, SanChin Ryu is IsShin Ryu.

    My teacher has no knowledge of them, so whats the deal?
     
  8. punisher73

    punisher73 Senior Master

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    Once again, that logo that you are using is a drawing of Peter Urban, and is protected by copyright.
    --------------
    I don't know where the picture for the logo came from, but the Sanchin-Ryu logo is copyrighted as well, so there must have been enough changes made to it to not be an infringement.


    As far as I can see, SanChin Ryu is IsShin Ryu.
    -------------

    Isshin Ryu is one of the styles that Master Dearman had ranking in when he created Sanchin Ryu. You will see the use of the vertical fist instead of a rotating horizontal punch, and you will see other techniques from other various Okinawan styles as well. BUT, the approach and the strategy used is different than in IsshinRyu and/or other styles. You many see similarities in them just like you would from Goju to Isshin but they are not the same.
     
  9. S. Malanoski

    S. Malanoski Guest

  10. white belt

    white belt Brown Belt

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    Punisher 73,

    Thanks for replying. I have gotten some annoying feedback from ex-students of this school and about a month ago I received a phone call (during teaching a class) from a man who was really P.O.ed that can't get out of his contract until next March (2005). This man was asking me for legal advice against the school owner over the phone! I told him to stick it out and try to learn as much as possible and if he is still unhappy in a year, come train with me. I am doing fine businesswise and feel there is enough pie to go around for everybody. My view of some other competitors schools are positive even though they teach something I don't. If a man teaches Judo/Wing Chun,etc. properly I feel it benefits my community. This schools ex-students seem to keep calling or signing up with me and when I heard about this Sanchin Ryu being taught by them, I had a red flag pop up. This school owners claim to fame was TKD and now he is a Karate Master(?). Curiosity got the better of me and I started this thread. If you have affiliates in the Northern Ohio, Northern Indiana area, send me a private e-mail and maybe we can sort this out. If someone were possibly using my schools credentials w/o permission, I would want to know.

    white belt
     
  11. punisher73

    punisher73 Senior Master

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    If you have affiliates in the Northern Ohio, Northern Indiana area, send me a private e-mail and maybe we can sort this out. If someone were possibly using my schools credentials w/o permission, I would want to know.

    --------

    We have a class in Fort Wayne Indiana, but that is run through community education in a public school or town hall type setting. I don't know about N. Ohio. Give me a private email (I tried sending you a private message and it wouldn't let me, and didn't list an email address) so I can get more information about this because I am almost positive this guy is just using the name because...

    1) We don't have set schools we only go through community education programs to keep cost down.
    2) We don't have contracts for students, they registar through CE for an 8 week session for about $25-$35 depending on the community director.
    3) ALL Senseis in SanchinRyu do NOT get payed for what they do, it is all on a volunteer basis in exchange our training with the masters is only $60 a year (membership dues to OSKA).
     
  12. white belt

    white belt Brown Belt

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    Readers,

    I am coming to understand from private e-mails with Punisher 73 that his Sanchin Ryu is not a quick money marketing scheme and the school I pointed out earlier on this thread may have nothing to do with Punishers particular Sanchin system. The details will be forthcoming soon I am sure. I would like to thank Punisher 73 for helping to keep honest consumers and practicioners informed. There is just too much hokum out there to sort through easily.

    white belt
     
  13. white belt

    white belt Brown Belt

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    Another update from me, white belt,

    Punisher 73 investigated the belt factory via some conversations and they are NOT teaching Sanchin Ryu. The Sanchin Ryu teacher is teaching locally at a facility previously occupied by said beltfactory. This caused a bit of confusion for me and some others around here. I will personally notify my associates so the belt factory's rep. won't tarnish the Sanchin Ryu people. I read some literature distributed by the local community center and mistakenly recalled a different Instructors name being printed with the Sanchin info. Normally the belt factory had their info. printed in the schedules every season for quite some time and more people than myself figured it was just a new flavor of the month offered by them, the belt factory.

    I owe the Sanchin Ryu guys a big apology for thinking they were involved with the school in question. They are not.

    I also must say Punisher 73 was very nice about straightening out my misperception. I checked out the Sanchin Ryu website by putting "Sanchin systems" in my search engine and I was impressed by how honest an affordable the programs appear. If the MT Admins. are ok with the suggestion, someone with the capability to post the link on this thread would be doing me a solid by helping to set the record straight. Crow kind of tastes like chicken!

    white belt
     
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  14. eoptap

    eoptap White Belt

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    Just to update anyone reading this thread. Sanchin-ryu just had its 50th anniversary. It is recognized in Okinawa, and no the symbol we use dose not match the symbol that is on the Goju web page either web page old or new. I have also forwarded the link for the thread to this log to the main office ty and have a nice day:)
     
  15. emiliozapata

    emiliozapata Green Belt

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    eosop , i am trying to find out if you have any locations to train in st clair or macomb counties thank you
     
  16. oobergooberkc

    oobergooberkc White Belt

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    I am a 13 year student of Sanchin Ryu. I am a Sho Dan (1st black) and 17 years old. I have studied under three of the four top ranked masters of this style. I do not speak on behalf of the masters but only on my own knowledge of our art. It is a very down-to-earth style that has taken many aspects of other styles along with some fresh ideas and mixed them all into one art. The founder of our style, Chief Grand Master Robert H. Dearman founded the style in the 70's in Leslie, MI. It is a non-competitive art form and teaches flight before fight if possible. To my knowledge (although there are many myths about all of this even within the practitioners of Sanchin Ryu), Sanchin Ryu is based heavily off of Isshin Ryu and is a hard style. Among many things, the origins of the name of our style is derived from the actual use of Sanchin within certain Forms and Kata. There are many pieces of other styles mixed into Sanchin Ryu, both Japanese, Chinese, and Okinawan. We are non-profit and I have been co-instructing classes for a few years with absolutely no pay. In fact the instructors at our summer camps have to pay to go, just to teach. The practitioners of Sanchin Ryu are very welcoming and kind. It is not a belt factory, although sometimes I wonder how some people got the rank they did :wink:.
     
  17. Zero

    Zero Master Black Belt

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    Hey

    I've recently heard others refer to this Sanchin Ryu style and heard it termed as a 'traditional' Okinawan karate form. Is this the case, ie has it developed outside of but back from the same starting point as goju or is it more of a recent divergence/offshoot, or is it much more modern?

    Don't get me wrong, as long as your art has workable, realistic practices then I don't care if it's 2 months or 200 years old but I'm not aware of its Okinawan or Japanese lineage.
     
  18. punisher73

    punisher73 Senior Master

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    It is an American art, but with okinawan roots. You would recognize many elements from the okinawan arts and how they played such a large role in it's development. CGM Dearman wanted to give credit to that fact. It is heavily influenced by Isshinryu in particular. The art of Sanchin Ryu has been around for over 30 years, so it is fairly "recent" in view of other okinawan arts, such as, Isshinryu that has been around for 50 years, or Goju and Uechi which has been around for close to 90 yrs.

    There is ANOTHER Sanchin Ryu, in England that was started by a Japanese gentleman which adds to the confusion.
     
  19. idunno

    idunno White Belt

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    I'd like to provide another, more neutral perspective on Sanchin-ryu. I only reached 1st degree black belt, and that was 12 years ago, after which I stopped, so my knowledge may not be up-to-date or complete.

    Sanchin-ryu grew up mostly in Michigan, with classes taught out of community centers, parks, and schools. There were (are?) classes all over the state of Michigan, in some cases every 10 miles, as well as a less dense population of classes throughout the US and the world.

    I have no doubts that the founder, CGM Dearman, is an accomplished martial artist. I've seen him spar, with very light contact, in the middle of a pack of people, and toss them about like rag dolls (one of the FEW times I ever saw sparring) I also believe some, if not most, of the style's higher students, the 5th-6th Masters, know how to defend themselves. The tippy-top students, the "disciple masters", the 7th degree plus students,
    carry themselves like they know how to fight. They also seem to be able to twist you up like a pretzel, at least in class - so they seem to have a pretty decent knowledge of the mechanics of PAIN. :)

    A 7th degree I knew once knocked a druggie out who tried to shoot him, so I'm pretty sure he knows what he's doing... just like anyone who can hit hard, won't hesitate, and has the element of surprise.

    I don't think some of the Masters, particularly the less experienced ones, are near as capable as they think against a real, unsurprised opponent, although I could be wrong. I "sparred" a 5th degree Master, who told me I was doing ok until I started grappling with him. It was when I started grappling that I started winning... this is a one time observation. I'm not saying that they aren't any good, just that they aren't as good as the hero worship by the Sanchinkas seems to imply.

    The organization itself was originally run by Dearman, then by Dearman's top disciple, who became a 7th degree black belt (after 20 or so years, he's higher now). It's unclear what salary they draw from this. I don't dispute their right to earn a salary from teaching... I do question the business practices - once you reach black belt, you get to teach (when you "truly" begin to learn) and you teaching (for free) pays for your black belt classes. The money from students you teach all goes back to Sanchin-ryu HQ. On top of this, I think you pay an annual membership fee. Additionally, I was encouraged to take it "at the students' own pace" when teaching. This encouragement wasn't done in a slimy way at all, but seemed very honest. Today, when I look back on it, it seems like a rip-off... although perhaps less of a rip-off than commercial dojos.

    Maybe this changed, but the fact it went (goes) on for so long really makes me wonder.

    I can't speak for the level of training above black belt. However, from everything I experienced (about 4-5 years worth, and I visited many schools in Michigan) the quality of training below black belt is 99% worthless.

    During my time there were 10 basic strikes, including a kick, 10 combinations, and 10 forms (katas, katas in Sanchin-ryu are forms), along with other techniques here and there. A lot of emphasis was made on snapback, or bringing the strike back as fast as possible after the moment of impact. Emphasis on proper technique stopped there, until black belt.

    A student could not know all of these techniques, and still make black belt. Emphasis on rank promotions was not made on the number of techniques known, which I agree with. Neither was emphasis made on how well those techniques were performed. Rank promotions were (are?) made based on a teacher's gut-level indication that a student's personal growth is good enough for the next belt.

    Often, a good 1/4 to 3/4s of any given class was spent talking about what I felt to be non-applicable voodoo, or development of your mental/spiritual self. To an outside observer, this wouldn't have a freaky religious tone, more of a pretend-karate tone. I'm ok with emphasis of positive values, but a lot of time was spent on this, to the detriment of teaching real self-defense skills.

    The other part of the class was usually spent "discovering" new and different ways the basic techniques could be applied, or how techniques from the forms could be applied. Very rarely was this done with a partner, usually it was done against the air, with hypothetical discoveries of untested quality.

    "Here's another way to do Combined Basic Advanced #1 - punch to the left, now instead of throwing a backfist to your right, raise your elbow parallel and throw a backfist to your right."

    Exploring Sanchin-ryu techniques is very probably a useful technique if you already have a good foundation. If you know enough about applying techniques effectively to a real person to judge the merit of trying something new - OR maybe if you understand how to manipulate the mechanics of an opponent well enough. Even then, you should be able to apply techniques/manipulate mechanics under stress. Neither of these were really taught, at least not before black belt, at least not to me or anyone I knew. I will wager 500$ that it is not taught today, at least not below "Masters' classes" (if there).

    Nothing about targets, or power (except from a 6th degree Master).There was mention when I became black belt that to really get power in my punches I had to start to "use my stance." Why this wasn't taught from the beginning, I'm not sure.

    Almost no time was spent in actual, real sparring, against a live-opponent. Experience with use of technique in highly stressful scenarios, or live sparring, happened once in my training. This was done by kicking/distracting me during forms practice... at the air.

    NEVER was the training enough to get any experience or combat intuition.
    There was no teaching of any systematic application of techniques - i.e. basic counter to a punch, basic counter to a side kick, basic counter to a takedown, etc. The common answer to a question "how do I block a punch" was that "blocking is impossible, you should strike instead". But no strikes were shown, a student must've been intended to "discover" the best way to stop a punch or takedown through "exploring" the techniques. Not a bad concept, perhaps, but there weren't any drills where you struck an opponent's punch or kick either, unless you discovered them on your own.

    I knew a couple who were junior black-belts who did these drills on their own. She was 6 inches shorter than me, about 40 lbs. lighter, and could knock me down by crossing her elbows in front of me and uncrossing them. Every time. Even under stress. But that was from self-practice of training methodologies that weren't taught in any class I saw. I suppose the other students are supposed to rely on luck...

    Long story short, no development of motor coordination, instinctive awareness of distance and timing, tactics, much less strategy - at least not before black belt (and I didn't see it in the year I attended black belt classes, either). Those should be @#$*ing fundamentals, and taught from the beginning, or soon after.

    When sparring against students from other styles who did systematically spar, I got my butt whupped. Consistently. I only ever successfully used Sanchin-ryu when I had the element of surprise.

    Perhaps the Masters know all these things. Perhaps these fundamentals, or a better understanding of these fundamentals than I have, were meant to be taught from the beginning. In that case, Sanchin-ryu has a serious quality control problem.

    Perhaps they aren't meant to be taught except to Masters. In that case, I'd save my money and go take boxing classes, unless you want to wait 15 years to be able to defend yourself without blind luck.
     
  20. punisher73

    punisher73 Senior Master

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    OK, it's hard to believe that you have the experience you claim to have when you have the "basics" of the system even wrong.

    1) Yes, there are 10 basics. They are divided into 3 punches, 2 kicks, 2 elbows, 2 knees, one combo shuto/heel palm strike.

    2) There are also 8 more "basic" kicks (plus the other 2) for 10 basic kicks to learn

    3) 10 CBA's: What are they based on? What are they to show?

    4) 10 Forms: NO, forms and katas ARE NOT the same in Sanchin-Ryu. The first 10 forms are ONE kata broken down into 10 seperate parts. Each form is a small study to illustrate a concept.

    5) 10 Katas: Katas build on where forms left off, they are alot longer in length and combine different concepts to show and learn a strategy for dealing with different scenarios.

    Refinement is up to the student. If you are happy with what you are doing, CGM Dearman is not going to come up and tell you to change it. He has found through the years that when he does that it is not productive. So instead, he waits until you ask for refinement and he will gladly give it to you and the reasons behind it. The Chief Instructors are the same way.
     

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