Roundhouse kick - lean back for head kicks, stand straight for body kicks

[skribs]

I used to believe that you should stand up straight and lean into all of your kicks. That way your weight gets behind the kick. However, recently I learned that you can get more power and height into a back kick by hunching over when you kick. Leaning forward forces your hips back, which helps add thrust to the kick.

I have the StrikeMeter that I've mentioned in other threads - it gives you an arbitrary number that you can use to compare techniques of like height (i.e. compare headshots or compare body shots). Here's what I found:

Head shots: my kicks were about 10-20% stronger if I leaned back. This is in addition to other benefits you get from leaning back, such as:

• Easier to kick higher
• Gives you a counter-weight you can use to help drop your foot down faster (stand up straight brings the foot down quicker)
• Gets your head out of range of the opponent.

Body Shots: my kicks were about 40-60% stronger if I stood up straight.

The only thing that really surprises me is that it depends on the height of your target whether you want to lean back or not. What I think is happening is that for the higher kick, you're actually bringing your center of mass back in line with the kick, where with a straight kick you're kicking over your center of mass. You still are with leaning back, but at least now you've got the counterweight action going on. For the body shot, it seems the direct weight transfer is better than the counterweight.

 

[dvcochran]

It is okay practice if you are fluid with the out & back motion. What I see many people do is get "stuck" in the lean. Their body is behind their center and it is harder to recover to a neutral position. It is akin to the counterweight action you mentioned, but think about what the impact is going to do your momentum.
So my question would be what can you do After the kick? Can you continue to move forward as easily as you can 'fall' back?
Also remember, a round house is an arc or circular kick not a linear kick. So mechanics are more important because you cannot really just throw your bodyweight forward.
In application, if I know you are a kicker and I see your body/head going back I know there is 1.) a high chance the kick is coming to the head and 2.) the kick is coming at an arc.
Something we trained for in competition is that you want to ebb and flow with the motion of the opponent. So if I see you leaning back, I am coming forward. There is a lot of chess play there but that is the simplified version.

In a singular kick scenario where you have the opponent off balance it can be a good tool. But if you are not careful there is more bad in it than good. I will take 2-3 successive kicks where I have good body control any day unless I know the single is a sure bet, which is not very often in competition.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Most people have to lean back for the head shots. Doing so makes the kick slower, especially the recovery. The less you lean, the quicker your follow up strikes. The very best don't need to lean at all.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Most people have to lean back for the head shots. Doing so makes the kick slower, especially the recovery. The less you lean, the quicker your follow up strikes. The very best don't need to lean at all.

Complete agreement here. I like to move in after a roundhouse for a quick follow up, finding this kick a great way to set up the opponent. A big lean prevents this.

Another point is pivoting the supporting foot. While it provides for extra power, it twists the body around and slows any straight in follow up move. For this reason I prefer to not pivot. Without the pivot and lean, a follow up move can be delivered extremely fast and effectively. On the other hand, without these two movements, it is very hard to reach the head (impossible for me).

When I began training in the olden days, I was taught the kick without the pivot and to use it to the ribs or below - it seemed powerful enough to me. Since that time, I have not observed anyone else doing the roundhouse without pivoting. (Competition required stretching the target zone so I did became adept at pivoting for the higher targets.)

 

[drop bear]

I lean forwards and off to the side. Or stand up straight if I am being lazy.

Leaning off center reduces my risk of eating a punch a bit.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Complete agreement here. I like to move in after a roundhouse for a quick follow up, finding this kick a great way to set up the opponent. A big lean prevents this.

Another point is pivoting the supporting foot. While it provides for extra power, it twists the body around and slows any straight in follow up move. For this reason I prefer to not pivot. Without the pivot and lean, a follow up move can be delivered extremely fast and effectively. On the other hand, without these two movements, it is very hard to reach the head (impossible for me).

When I began training in the olden days, I was taught the kick without the pivot and to use it to the ribs or below - it seemed powerful enough to me. Since that time, I have not observed anyone else doing the roundhouse without pivoting. (Competition required stretching the target zone so I did became adept at pivoting for the higher targets.)

The pivot aids power and height and changes the distancing. If you're not pivoting, you're going to need to be closer. The non-pivoting kick is most useful at the ribs or lower, and it sounds as if this is how you've been taught. These lower, non-pivoting kicks will also be faster. One combo I've had good luck with is 2-3 low round house or front kicks, even going so far as to telegraph them a little. Then start one more kick, pivot, and go to the head.

 

[dvcochran]

Complete agreement here. I like to move in after a roundhouse for a quick follow up, finding this kick a great way to set up the opponent. A big lean prevents this.

Another point is pivoting the supporting foot. While it provides for extra power, it twists the body around and slows any straight in follow up move. For this reason I prefer to not pivot. Without the pivot and lean, a follow up move can be delivered extremely fast and effectively. On the other hand, without these two movements, it is very hard to reach the head (impossible for me).

When I began training in the olden days, I was taught the kick without the pivot and to use it to the ribs or below - it seemed powerful enough to me. Since that time, I have not observed anyone else doing the roundhouse without pivoting. (Competition required stretching the target zone so I did became adept at pivoting for the higher targets.)

A round house kick without the foot pivot is hell on the standing knee. This is definitely in the cumulative injury category.
I do see people (usually young people) who are exceptionally limber in their hips who can throw a round house where the kicking leg will be technically correct but the rest of the body will be out of place so the kicks usually do not have much on them.

Back to my tool bag reference earlier; the pivot of the foot has a Lot to do with what you plan to do post kick. A low kick, a lead leg flick, or a knee drive fake do not need much knee pivot. They do need shoulder motion to look real.
If you know you are moving forward and chaining kicks/strikes together you may put your kicking leg down in line with the opponent or step through to follow with some sort of spinning technique or may step to the kicking side for a reverse punch. A Lot is based on what the opponent does.

This is also a good place to talk about the chamber. It is not just about lifting the knee. Not to sound too corny but this is a perfect area to point out the 'art' of a kick.
There is a TON of coordination going on here:
The knee up is the initiating prime mover for the whole kick.
It requires a Lot of torso/abdominal energy and you essentially do a crunch during the kick.
It requires very good hip flexibility to keep the torso in a more up biased position.
It requires good leg (especially calf) strength to keep the heel in proper position, not too high, not dragging the floor. This also protects the knee.
The obliques keep the body up and aligned so that the hips and back and thigh can make a quick return of the of the kicking leg.
All this is happening in one very fast, powerful, martial, beautiful motion. Pretty darn cool.

If you want to make real power you have to pivot, both the standing foot and the torso. Watch a Thai fighter when they really commit. Their upper body motion is slightly different if the kick is returning in that they do not rotate the shoulders quite as much as most TKD folks but the same kick otherwise.

 

[drop bear]

A round house kick without the foot pivot is hell on the standing knee. This is definitely in the cumulative injury category.
I do see people (usually young people) who are exceptionally limber in their hips who can throw a round house where the kicking leg will be technically correct but the rest of the body will be out of place so the kicks usually do not have much on them.

Back to my tool bag reference earlier; the pivot of the foot has a Lot to do with what you plan to do post kick. A low kick, a lead leg flick, or a knee drive fake do not need much knee pivot. They do need shoulder motion to look real.
If you know you are moving forward and chaining kicks/strikes together you may put your kicking leg down in line with the opponent or step through to follow with some sort of spinning technique or may step to the kicking side for a reverse punch. A Lot is based on what the opponent does.

This is also a good place to talk about the chamber. It is not just about lifting the knee. Not to sound too corny but this is a perfect area to point out the 'art' of a kick.
There is a TON of coordination going on here:
The knee up is the initiating prime mover for the whole kick.
It requires a Lot of torso/abdominal energy and you essentially do a crunch during the kick.
It requires very good hip flexibility to keep the torso in a more up biased position.
It requires good leg (especially calf) strength to keep the heel in proper position, not too high, not dragging the floor. This also protects the knee.
The obliques keep the body up and aligned so that the hips and back and thigh can make a quick return of the of the kicking leg.
All this is happening in one very fast, powerful, martial, beautiful motion. Pretty darn cool.

If you want to make real power you have to pivot, both the standing foot and the torso. Watch a Thai fighter when they really commit. Their upper body motion is slightly different if the kick is returning in that they do not rotate the shoulders quite as much as most TKD folks but the same kick otherwise.

I will often step which again cuts an angle as well as providing a pivot.

But if they have cut to the right I can throw a right leg kick without pivot.

I do a little right cross right headshot round kick that can be scary effective if they have a tendency to slip punches.

 

[skribs]

@isshinryuronin regarding the pivot, I find the pivot less necessary for headshots, because you're going more up. If you can pivot, though, I do think it's better.

 

[Ivan]

Most people have to lean back for the head shots. Doing so makes the kick slower, especially the recovery. The less you lean, the quicker your follow up strikes. The very best don't need to lean at all.

How would you practice and achieve this? I do lean back and I wish to know how to make sure I don't

 

[skribs]

Most people have to lean back for the head shots. Doing so makes the kick slower, especially the recovery. The less you lean, the quicker your follow up strikes. The very best don't need to lean at all.

In my opinion, it's faster, since leaning opens your hips. If you lean and then kick it's slower, but if you lean at the same time it's faster.

 

[Dirty Dog]

How would you practice and achieve this? I do lean back and I wish to know how to make sure I don't

Flexibility and core strength. Basically, just stand there and lift (not swing) the leg up and hold it there without leaning.

In my opinion, it's faster, since leaning opens your hips. If you lean and then kick it's slower, but if you lean at the same time it's faster.

It makes the recovery slower. Because you have to raise the relatively heavy torso, which is slower than lowering the relatively light leg. I thought I made that clear in my initial statement.

 

[isshinryuronin]

The pivot aids power and height and changes the distancing. If you're not pivoting, you're going to need to be closer. The non-pivoting kick is most useful at the ribs or lower, and it sounds as if this is how you've been taught. These lower, non-pivoting kicks will also be faster. One combo I've had good luck with is 2-3 low round house or front kicks, even going so far as to telegraph them a little. Then start one more kick, pivot, and go to the head.

I have used this exact combination as well with great effectiveness, in fact, it was one of my specialties. Another favorite beginning with a low-mid, non-pivoting roundhouse (with the rear leg) was to step in afterwards and trap/check with the lead hand, then score with a reverse punch. It didn't really matter if the kick scored or not. Often it did as it was quite fast with no lean or pivot, but I'd still land the punch, anyway - it was a package deal.

 

[dvcochran]

How would you practice and achieve this? I do lean back and I wish to know how to make sure I don't

There are several stretching techniques that target the hips and the kick. Do you have a stretching rail? Most are a simple stair rail firmly fastened to a wall above the average persons hip height. You can use it alone by getting in the contact position and sliding your kicking foot down the rail. If you have a partner, get in the contact position and have your partner push you leg up being mindful or your body position.
Static floor stretches, primarily all variations of the splits are good.
If you have mirrors on a wall, drill going down the floor walking the kicks, critiquing the kicks with the mirror.
If you have a Bob raise it as high as it will go and use the head as a target.
Write down all the variations of the kick you have learned. Practice them at full speed/power with a partner and target. A Lot.
Then gear up and practice them in sparring. A LOT.
Time is your ally. Spend it wisely.

 

[skribs]

Flexibility and core strength. Basically, just stand there and lift (not swing) the leg up and hold it there without leaning.



It makes the recovery slower. Because you have to raise the relatively heavy torso, which is slower than lowering the relatively light leg. I thought I made that clear in my initial statement.

Raising the torso means pushing with your core and your plant leg against the ground. Lowering your other leg means pushing down with your torso (unless you just let gravity lower it). That at least offsets the speed loss.

And the initial kick is faster. Which also offsets the speed loss of the recovery. Especially since the kick is also stronger and puts you out of danger.

 

[paitingman]

How would you practice and achieve this? I do lean back and I wish to know how to make sure I don't

DD and dvcochran have pretty much covered good ways to train.
I would give a reminder to really try and develop the hips and joints as well.
I think this is actually even easier on those who weren't born a contortionist. Flexibility alone will let you execute the kicks and aids in power, but you also need joints that will be strong enough to hold everything in place through the years.

leg lifting exercises help a lot here.
I do a lot of ballet type range of motion and lifting and holding exercises to maintain hip flexibility and STRENGTH throughout the range of motion.

I have brothers who completely ignored this type of training and developed the old TKD hip syndrome by the time they were 30.
I was definitely one of the ones who didn't do these exercises diligently enough in my youth and regret it now.

The boring type drills with a chair or against a wall will help build control, flexibility, and the pliable strength your hips need to deal with the stress and stretching that happens in the heat of the moment when kicking.

 

[Buka]

Are we talking about a roundhouse kick with the front leg or the rear leg?

 

[drop bear]

How would you practice and achieve this? I do lean back and I wish to know how to make sure I don't

I do a drill that goes round kick, front kick, front kick, round kick.

Normally on a bag and not all cramped up.

But what it does is it forces me to recover for the next kick which moving from round to straight I found mentality quite challenging .

 

[skribs]

Are we talking about a roundhouse kick with the front leg or the rear leg?

Yes.

Although my tests were rear leg.

 

[paitingman]

I do a drill that goes round kick, front kick, front kick, round kick.

Normally on a bag and not all cramped up.

But what it does is it forces me to recover for the next kick which moving from round to straight I found mentality quite challenging .

This is an excellent kind of drill and pretty much elementary TKD training.
I usually do it while moving across or around the room.
It's a very fun exercise once you've got the movement down. I can't tell you how many miles I've done this type of drill for lol