Rotation differences between Eastern/Western styles.

amateur

Orange Belt
Joined
Dec 3, 2018
Messages
71
Reaction score
6
Western martial arts: You rotate by pivoting the back foot.
Eastern martial arts: You rotate by straightening the back leg.

Western martial arts were designed for competitive fights under certain conditions. It's easy to rotate with foot pivoting when you're wearing shoes or when you spar on a gym's smooth floor or an arena's mattress.
But eastern martial arts were designed centuries ago to combat any real life or death situation. Try to pivot your foot on forest ground or on a rocky mountain, especially if you're barefoot (shoes weren't available to everyone back then).
That's why I think that, if you want to become a real warrior prepared for any situation, you should add practicing rotating by straightening your leg (as in eastern reverse punch for example) in your routine.
 

Gerry Seymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
29,971
Reaction score
10,525
Location
Hendersonville, NC
There's not that much difference, IMO, between the motions. I shift between them when practicing and sparring. With shoes on, there's not much real advantage in keeping the back foot down, except that it almost guarantees keeping the weight behind the forward support (to protect against grappling takedowns).

People who didn't wear shoes on a regular basis wouldn't have had the soft, tender feet you and I have. They would be fully capable of using a foot rotation on dirt or similar surfaces.
 

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
14,041
Reaction score
4,488
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
Are you talking about static rotation (feet are not moving), or dynamic rotation (feet are moving)?

IMO, the dynamic rotation is more useful than the static rotation. You need to move yourself outside of your opponent's attacking path.

If your opponent steps

- in, you use stealing step (move one leg behind the other).
- back, you use cover step (move one leg in front of the other).
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

MT Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
12,209
Reaction score
6,306
Location
New York
What do you mean by rotate by straightening the back leg? Maybe I'm just not picturing it correctly, but that doesn't sound like a rotation to me.
 

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
14,041
Reaction score
4,488
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
What do you mean by rotate by straightening the back leg? Maybe I'm just not picturing it correctly, but that doesn't sound like a rotation to me.
It seems to me that the OP is talking about the static rotation that both feet are not moving. IMO, the static rotation is not very useful, You opponent will easily take you down by single leg or double legs if your feet are grounded.
 

Tony Dismukes

MT Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Nov 11, 2005
Messages
7,576
Reaction score
7,611
Location
Lexington, KY
Western martial arts: You rotate by pivoting the back foot.
Eastern martial arts: You rotate by straightening the back leg.

Western martial arts were designed for competitive fights under certain conditions. It's easy to rotate with foot pivoting when you're wearing shoes or when you spar on a gym's smooth floor or an arena's mattress.
But eastern martial arts were designed centuries ago to combat any real life or death situation. Try to pivot your foot on forest ground or on a rocky mountain, especially if you're barefoot (shoes weren't available to everyone back then).
That's why I think that, if you want to become a real warrior prepared for any situation, you should add practicing rotating by straightening your leg (as in eastern reverse punch for example) in your routine.
Almost every sentence in that post is incorrect.
 

Danny T

Senior Master
Joined
Sep 5, 2002
Messages
4,258
Reaction score
2,293
Location
New Iberia, Louisiana USA
Western martial arts: You rotate by pivoting the back foot.
Eastern martial arts: You rotate by straightening the back leg.

Western martial arts were designed for competitive fights under certain conditions. It's easy to rotate with foot pivoting when you're wearing shoes or when you spar on a gym's smooth floor or an arena's mattress.
But eastern martial arts were designed centuries ago to combat any real life or death situation. Try to pivot your foot on forest ground or on a rocky mountain, especially if you're barefoot (shoes weren't available to everyone back then).
That's why I think that, if you want to become a real warrior prepared for any situation, you should add practicing rotating by straightening your leg (as in eastern reverse punch for example) in your routine.
Uhh...not so much.
 

wab25

Master Black Belt
Joined
Sep 22, 2017
Messages
1,371
Reaction score
1,229
It seems to me that the OP is talking about the static rotation that both feet are not moving. IMO, the static rotation is not very useful, You opponent will easily take you down by single leg or double legs if your feet are grounded.
I believe he is talking about a traditional boxers punch vs a traditional karate punch. Both of these have proven useful and effective in MMA, even against grapplers and wrestlers. (though I believe the boxers punch to be more useful and effective... but I have seen both used quite well) In fact, if you are not well grounded, or rooted, your strike will not have much power. Used correctly, neither of these two punches will effect your mobility for very long. You only need to be rooted at the instant of contact. Both of these styles of punching give plenty of mobility before and after that point in time where you need to be grounded / rooted to deliver power.

Yes, they can be hit with takedowns, and have been. Both the punching and the takedowns are effective. You need the timing and distance to be correct, for your technique. Get either wrong, and you will be hit by the other guys technique, whether it be boxers punch, karate punch or double leg takedown. Being countered by the other guys technique in this matter is more a user error than a fault of the technique.
 

Flying Crane

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 21, 2005
Messages
15,230
Reaction score
4,920
Location
San Francisco
I can only say that the way we do it, we both straighten the rear leg and pivot the foot. Those two things work together to make it happen.

And then, it depends. Sometimes we only straighten the leg. Situational circumstances.
 

Gerry Seymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
29,971
Reaction score
10,525
Location
Hendersonville, NC
What do you mean by rotate by straightening the back leg? Maybe I'm just not picturing it correctly, but that doesn't sound like a rotation to me.
I think he's referring to the common JMA practice of teaching the punch from a static stance, driving the hip forward from the heel, so the foot doesn't move but the hips rotate.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

MT Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
12,209
Reaction score
6,306
Location
New York
I think he's referring to the common JMA practice of teaching the punch from a static stance, driving the hip forward from the heel, so the foot doesn't move but the hips rotate.
Ah. So this thread is referring to power generation, not rotation? That makes a lot more sense. From the words "you rotate by straightening your back leg" since that's not a rotation movement I thought he was referring to either rotating a kick or punch (hook kick/roundhouse), or rotating for footwork (I will sometimes use my back foot as a pivot when someone tries to go at an angle on me).

So the real question would be to rotate the hips or foot for power generation? Then the answer for me is both.
 

Gerry Seymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
29,971
Reaction score
10,525
Location
Hendersonville, NC
Ah. So this thread is referring to power generation, not rotation? That makes a lot more sense. From the words "you rotate by straightening your back leg" since that's not a rotation movement I thought he was referring to either rotating a kick or punch (hook kick/roundhouse), or rotating for footwork (I will sometimes use my back foot as a pivot when someone tries to go at an angle on me).

So the real question would be to rotate the hips or foot for power generation? Then the answer for me is both.
I rotate both when I move the foot. To me, one is just an abbreviated (and more controlled, structurally) version of the other.
 
D

Deleted member 39746

Guest
Western martial arts were designed for competitive fights under certain conditions.

Say hello to Bartitsu and rough and tumble fighting. (grated former has a fair amount of asian influence but only from grappling) And there are probably plenty of others but im not versed in every martial system of Europe and post European colonization of north America.To which there are hundreds if not thousands, pending definition and scope.

But i would agree a lot have more or less evolved for more sport fighting. Same with plenty of eastern ones.



Also you can do my system not rotate at all. (ask me how that works as i have legitimately no idea, i will embody the definition of a linear style eventually)
 

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
23,337
Reaction score
8,070
Rotation with punches stops you being able to leg check as well. And you will be swept a bit more easily.

Rotating when you kick is a bit quicker but makes it harder to step off line which can leave you open for a counter.

Traditional vs sport is a false distinction in this case.
 

Gerry Seymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
29,971
Reaction score
10,525
Location
Hendersonville, NC
Rotation with punches stops you being able to leg check as well. And you will be swept a bit more easily.

Rotating when you kick is a bit quicker but makes it harder to step off line which can leave you open for a counter.

Traditional vs sport is a false distinction in this case.
"vs. sport" is often a false distinction, or at least an exaggerated one.
 

lklawson

Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 3, 2005
Messages
5,036
Reaction score
1,680
Location
Huber Heights, OH
I believe he is talking about a traditional boxers punch
And even that is wrong.


Allanson Winn pp16 left lead
by lklawson on MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community


ArtAndPractice pp16 left lead
by lklawson on MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community


james sullivan
by lklawson on MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community


Allanson Winn pp13 Left lead
by lklawson on MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

Martial D

Senior Master
Joined
May 18, 2017
Messages
3,407
Reaction score
1,156
So the real question would be to rotate the hips or foot for power generation? Then the answer for me is both.

That's pretty standard in Western boxing. Your foot is connected to the hip. Foot placement and rotation maps to hip placement and rotation.
 

Martial D

Senior Master
Joined
May 18, 2017
Messages
3,407
Reaction score
1,156
And even that is wrong.


Allanson Winn pp16 left lead
by lklawson on MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community


ArtAndPractice pp16 left lead
by lklawson on MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community


james sullivan
by lklawson on MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community


Allanson Winn pp13 Left lead
by lklawson on MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
The science of boxing sure has come a LONG WAY since then.
 

Latest Discussions

Top