Replacing collegiate wrestling with freestyle?

Discussion in 'High School/College Wrestling' started by Reeksta, Dec 14, 2014.

  1. Reeksta

    Reeksta Green Belt

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    Read a few interesting interviews recently with people like Aaron Pico and Firas Zahabi, who are expressing the opinion that if America wants to fulfill it's true potential on the international wrestling scene then it needs to ditch collegiate style wrestling and introduce freestyle in schools and colleges.
    Interested to hear what people's thoughts on this are?
     
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  2. Transk53

    Transk53 The Dark Often Prevails

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    I read something on this as well. Not an expert, but I found myself thinking why not both. Wrestlers finding their liking to one or the other. My basic take on it from someone the other side of the pond.
     
  3. Reeksta

    Reeksta Green Belt

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    I'm in the UK too Transk (Birmingham) it just interests me because I train freestyle wrestling. I've never trained collegiate but from what I gather it's very similar anyway so maybe your idea to do both is viable
     
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  4. arnisador

    arnisador Sr. Grandmaster

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    I hadn't heard that. What exactly are the differences, competition-wise?
     
  5. ballen0351

    ballen0351 Sr. Grandmaster

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    Wont do both because of $ issues I guess. Alot of schools are cutting sports anyway due to loss of money. There are only 2 real money making college sports
     
  6. arnisador

    arnisador Sr. Grandmaster

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    The college cut wrestling a few years back--money and Title IX.
     
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  7. Reeksta

    Reeksta Green Belt

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    In very simplistic terms, the main difference is how you score points. Collegiate places more emphasis on controlling your opponent on the mat while freestyle is more about scoring through performing big 'high amplitude' takedowns
     
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  8. Transk53

    Transk53 The Dark Often Prevails

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    Thought you were in UK, was not totally sure. Yeah, I'm sure for example that in what you do, one day do freestyle (primarily concentrate on that) and do the other as a side interest. Just in case of any slight conflicts in moves or whatever.
     
  9. ballen0351

    ballen0351 Sr. Grandmaster

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    On of the larger colleges around here got rid of all sports except football basket ball and softball
     
  10. tshadowchaser

    tshadowchaser Sr. Grandmaster

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    I don't understand why they could not do both. I mean what's really the cost of wrestling equipment these days.
    Let the student figure which he/she likes best
     
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  11. Reeksta

    Reeksta Green Belt

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    I think the perceived problem with this is that there's realistically only room for one style of wrestling to be competed at NCAA level (currently collegiate) and this is what 90% of students will go for. The point guys like Pico are making is that it doesn't really make sense to have that be the style students compete at all the way up the ladder if they have to change to freestyle once they get to the top and start competing internationally. The counter argument is that if you remove collegiate from the NCAAs then it will effectively cease to exist. In an ideal world then yes, there would be room for both in the NCAAs but that's not really an option unfortunately
     
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  12. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

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    Which one of the two are trained most, world wide?
     
  13. Reeksta

    Reeksta Green Belt

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    Freestyle. Collegiate is only American. Freestyle is competed internationally at the Olympics etc
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2014
  14. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

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    What do the wrestlers say? The guys who compete in collegiate, what do they say as far as if they're at a disadvantage in international competition.

    And what do you think about it?
     
  15. Reeksta

    Reeksta Green Belt

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    Well . . . first off I should say that I'm definitely biased. I train freestyle and love it but (not being American) I've never tried collegiate. Having said that, a shift to freestyle seems like a logical move to me. The US has so many awesome wrestlers come up through the NCAAs; seems a shame that a lot of them never reach their true potential on the international circuit because they're at a disadvantage due to having to adapt to a new style relatively late in their careers. The two kinds of wrestling are very similar but there's still marked differences and these things matter at the top level. It would be like taking a bunch of BJJ practitioners and making them your country's judo squad - they may do well, they may even win some medals, but they'll be at a disadvantage compared to guys who've trained in judo since day one.
    Seems like more of the top wrestlers in the States are feeling the same way too. I initially wrote this post after reading an interview with Aaron Pico, a wildly talented young buck who's on the current American wrestling team. He feels very strongly about this and really wants to see collegiate replaced by freestyle
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2014
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  16. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Hard with an established sport. Would that be like changing gridiron for soccer?
     
  17. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    I train Chinese wrestling. I don't have much experience in western wrestling. But one of my students is a western wrestler for 15 years. The following is his point of view.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    This is an overview of the primary differences in Western wrestling styles. In the USA there are 3 main branches:

    1. Collegiate (also called folk style)
    2. Freestyle
    3. Greco-Roman

    1. Collegiate is the college/high school style. The rules are different between college and high school regarding intensity, period length, overtime, and some scoring. In high/middle school the rules are per state. In college the rules are national.

    2. Freestyle is an internationally practiced style. There is a little variance in scoring/rules depending on the year and from state to state. Freestyle is an olympic sport and FILA endorsed. FILA is the international federation of associated wrestling styles and they now cover some "combat" grappling forms. USA Wrestling also governs freestyle and greco here, and they now have beach wrestling, which is like BJJ. But not mainstream like Freestyle and Greco. Freestyle is an olympic style.

    3. Gereco-Roman style is more popular in other countries compared to popularity of freestyle here. Greco is basically just freestyle with out use of legs. Greco is also an olympic sport, but America does not do as well in it in the olympics as they do in Freestyle.

    Basic differences, in my opinion, having competed in the state, national, and college levels in collegiate/freestyle:

    1. Collegiate/folk style is primarily concerned with dominance on the mat/ground, compared to the others. 2 points are awarded for any takedown, which is determined by control once both guys are on the mat. An escape back to standing is only worth 1 point. A reversal where the controlled man takes top control of the opponent is 2 points. In college there are points awarded for riding time. So if you get taken down, then get a reversal, then ride your opponent for 1 minute you get 1 point extra and win. Much of the time training is devoted to mat work: riding, tilting, pinning, reversal. A pin is a total win. To pin, the winner must demonstrate control of the opponent on his back (touching the mat flat) for about 3 seconds. Also, most throws are illegal in collegiate. In college you can be much rougher than in high school. But you must demonstrate total control through a "throw" or it is potentially dangerous and illegal. So rear embrace throw, leg blocking, and front cut, standing fireman's carry type of stuff is illegal in collegiate.

    2. In freestyle, the game is about back exposure, and if both men are on the mat with no specific point moves being generated, the ref will stand both guys up quickly (about 10-15 seconds). In this style, points can be scored many ways, often before a takedown occurs. A leg block headlock done well would be a 5 point throw in freestyle, but you have to maintain contact with your opponent all the way to the mat to get those points. A rear embrace or standing fireman's or a bowing throw would also be 5 point throws if done well, 4 if not. If you did a bowing throw just like in shuai chiao but remained standing you would get 2 points for back exposure on your opponent, but would not get the extra points for the takedown, control, or finesse. If you did a single leg, then sweep the remaining leg so the opponent falls to his back, then fall on him that would be a 3 point takedown. 1 for the takedown, 2 for back exposure. Also, if you are on the mat, then roll your opponent over even if you don't have takedown control you still get 2 points for exposing your opponents back to the mat. A pin in freestyle is also a total victory, but in freestyle you only have to touch your opponents inner shoulder blades to the mat for a split second to score a pin. So in freestyle there really are no true sacrifice throws, and one good headlock without the root can be an instant win. So in collegiate if a guy shoots a double leg, you sprawl, grind his face to the mat, then hope to get behind him to score a takedown. In freestyle you borrow his force, throw him over your shoulder with a front headlock or crotch throw and score 2 points instantly.

    3. Greco-Roman is basically just freestyle wrestling, but you cannot use your legs or touch your opponents legs. Basically Greco is to Freestyle what boxing is to Muy Thai.

    This is a freestyle match. The USA guy taught me my stand up technique. Notice his response to the leg shooting.



    This is a collegiate response to double leg, and illustrates the different focus compared to freestyle. Andy, the guy in blue was one of my training partners in high school. He did a lot of freestyle. And his headlock is the most that is allowed in a collegiate match. A full throw would have been illegal.



    Wrestlers paid to keep them out of mma and competing for the olympics.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/05/sports/05wrestling.html?_r=0

    One wrestlers outlook. I agree, wrestling is a tougher sport than mma.

    Why I chose Wrestling instead of MMA Blog Jordan Burroughs
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2014
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  18. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

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    By the way.....I hate all you wrestling guys. Wanna' know why?

    You suck to fight, you've always sucked to fight. The shape you're in puts most others to shame....and I'm in shape, always have been. Your core strength is usually off the charts (I hate you). You switch position so fast it sometimes makes me feel like I'm asleep.
    And you sons o' beeches never get tired. And, oh, how I've tried. I picture all of you sleeping in a closet, standing in that wrestlers crouch, snoring away, always ready.
    I hate you all.
     
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