Reperations

[chufeng]

The excuses don't wash...

Many successful paople come from "disadvantaged" backgrounds.
Kaith pointed out that haviing an excellent facility located in the hood doesn't seem to make much difference.

The solution lies within the community that claims to be a victim...if that community does not choose to emphasize the important things, then another generation of "give me my welfare check" people will grow out of it...

IT DOES NOT TAKE A VILLAGE...despite what Hillary Clinton (not a friend to blacks or jews, btw) says...it takes a dedicated parent (preferably two parents) to raise a productive citizen.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I'm going to bow out of this discussion....

I've been informed that all I'm doing is presenting myself as a bigoted racist, and that has not been my intent.

Good day.
:asian:

-Bob

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by chufeng
it takes a dedicated parent (preferably two parents) to raise a productive citizen.

That's one thing that we can do as a society. Despite my own
"hardships" (my hardships would be some people's heaven), my
mom was home when I got there. Modern days haven't been
kind to allowing that, financially. It baffles me ... the advent of
computers and automation have allowed for more work to get
done in a 40 hour work week, yet more people feel that have to
go to work to provide for their family. If as a country, we all
decided that one member, father or mother would stay home to
take care of the family's needs ... and 1 person in each 2 income
family all quit their jobs ... salaries would go through the roof,
allowing once again for a parent to be available 24-7. It'd never
happen, but it would be the beginings of a possible solution.

 

[chufeng]

I've been informed that all I'm doing is presenting myself as a bigoted racist

Well of course you are...you expect someone to actually be responsible for his/her own life...how unfair...

I am no bigot...I am no racist...BUT I will point out where some people can improve themselves (regardless of race)...

My wife and I considered adopting a black child in college...the college Equal Opportunity counsellor advised us against it (he was Black)...he said we wouldn't be able to adequately provide the proper "cultural" education for the child...what that meant, I'm not sure...when i confronted him on it, he said, "you won't even know how to cut his hair."

Excuse me...but it seems that the "cultural" education this "counsellor" was referring to was that of "Black rights." whaterver that means...A child is born into this world a blank slate(mostly) yet, a mixed race couple would be inappropriate parents for a black child? Why? Certainly it is not related to African heritage...most black folks don't even know what that means (REALLY)...but I do think it is about keeping a group of people isolated from the world (a world where hard work pays off)...

Jesse Jackson talks about the Rainbow Coalition...but it seems his rainbow is limited in its color scheme...

Idealogically, I am 100% for a Real Rainbow Coalition...but that is not what this debate is about...is it? This debate is about why some people can claim prejudice (even when it does not exist, except perhaps in the reverse order) and can claim their social upbringing as an excuse fro poor performance in school.


I'm getting very tired of this debate...those who understand the problem need no further convincing...those who will be victims, will always be victims.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Nightingale]

Originally posted by chufeng
Nightengale,

Although much of your post shows the "stumbling blocks" to a good start...it is important to keep in mind that one man's stumbling block is another man's stepping stone...

I see a lot of EXCUSES in your post...where are the remedies...

:asian:
chufeng

There were several remedies listed in the second half of my post. Did you read it all?

And yes, one man's stumbling stone is another man's stepping stone, but that first implies that the man has two legs with which to stand.

 

[chufeng]

And yes, one man's stumbling stone is another man's stepping stone, but that first implies that the man has two legs with which to stand.

...and when that leg was cut out by a parent who chooses victimhood over liberation...who do you blame? Society?

Your acknowledgement that there are VICTIMS is one of the worse forms of prejudice...let a child KNOW that he can do whatever he wants if he is willing to apply himself...
Let a child know that people are there to support her, even in the small failures...
Let a child know that skin color doesn't matter...it is what is on the inside...

The black people do not need the white people to be successful.
The individual must really believe in his/her inherant abilities...and a teacher/mentor/big brother or sister should emphasize the positive, NOT the negative.

...and yes I did read the rest of your post and I agree with most of it...

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I shouldnt open my mouth again but, hey....

How can the 'group' as a whole be motivated to do so?

How do we improve the group?

People say 'education', 'positive self image', 'motivation', 'belief'. etc, but these all start with the individual.

I've been told I focus too much on the individuals plight, and not the 'group'. But what is a group but many individuals?

How can we focus many individuals towards taking the group higher?

Some will say, what is one person?

1 person had a dream...
and one person created a nightmare.

1 person can change the world. 1 person can make the difference. By each and every small step, we create ripples that can create larger and greater waves, eventually, with enough effort we can move mountains.

The power of one, becomes the power of many. That will lead to the changes we all seek, in a way that benifits us all.

I wont see it. Too many close-minded people who only want their cut, and the hell with those outside their view. I pity those who cant see the big picture. Too narrow a viewpoint dooms us to repeat the mistakes of the past, as, we cant see them.


I read about people who lived in a hell I cant imagine...who created good lives for themselves.

I read about people who traveled thousands of miles, risked death, pain and worse...all for a chance.

I read about a man who became a master of martial arts...even though he is blind.

etc. etc. etc.

But, always it comes back to 'you dont understand'.

Let me ask this question:
What will giving reparations solve?
Lets say every black family (with verifiable slave ancestory) gets $10,000.
We give em all a nice 1,000 sqrft home.
We open the colleges for free to all blacks with a highschool or GED.

We still have a problem here...
You -still- have not answered the question on -how- we get their asses into the seats in the grade schools and high schools so that the can -qualify- for the college education.

Do we also add a dual grading requirement?
Whites must get a 75%+, but blacks are allowed to pass at 35%?
Hell, I dont want a doctor who got a 75 in diagnosing whatever Im there for....

Will all these 'perks', discounts, benifits really resolve anything? Will it stop the prejudice?

I think it would only increase it even more. More resentment for legistated inequality.

And then, where would we really be?

-Bob

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
I read about people who lived in a hell I cant imagine...who created good lives for themselves.

You read about them because they were the exceptions, and hence worth writing books about. No one writes books about the hundred who folded up and lived unhappy lives for every one you cite. Looking to the indidviual is an optimistic thing but it's also an Objectivist thing--everyone for him- or herself. Some fold for lack of will and some fight against insurmountable odds and--well--fail to surmount them.

If it as you in that situation, perhaps you'd fight and win--great! But the "cycle of poverty" is real. Parents who were beaten down by the world--possibly in days when they could legally be not hired because of their skin color--may pass on that pessimism to their children, who learn that rather than the fact that school/college will save them. (Heck, joining the service would be a great start in many cases.) They don't agree that education is the route, because for them that hasn't been the case. It's hard to convince them that things have changed. Seeding their communities with a few of their own children as physicians, lawyers, engineers, pharmacists, professors, teachers, etc., etc., etc.--including community college level tradesman like drafter/designers and mechanics and such--could help reverse this!

Is it worth it? Is there a certain fairness to it?

What if you had been rasied hearing these stories: "My great-grandfather was a slave...my grandfather was a sharecropper, little better--my father couldn't get a decent job because they didn't accept 'coloreds' and so worked as a gas station attendant for 40 years, where he was treated with little respect...and I wasn't allowed to attend the state college and had lots of doors closed to me when applying for jobs so I stayed in this neighborhood and opened a small barber shop." What part of that screams, "college is the path for you, son" to this kid? No one else did it--much pessimism and distress is associated with trying--that's what needs to be countered. People who learn this at a yound age won't be likely to try the path(s) you mention.

I've been informed that all I'm doing is presenting myself as a bigoted racist, and that has not been my intent.

I know Kaith in person and he certainly isn't prejudiced--he treats everyone with respect. His message here is the same as the way he treats people in real life: Judging them on the basis of their actions.

 

[arnisador]

Will all these 'perks', discounts, benifits really resolve anything? Will it stop the prejudice?

One hopes it'll help with both the prejudice and the poverty.

I believe that the key is early intervention in the schools. But without parental support it's hard going, and parental support isn't always there.

It's not an easy problem, but "pull yourself up by your own boostraps" isn't a solution. Changing the fact that rich neighborhoods have good schools and poor neighborhoods have not-so-good schools is a start--it's the Holy Grail, to my mind.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Let me just note that Arnisador and Nightingale rock on this issue.

Have one member of each two-income household give up their job? Let me guess--the woman, thus also solving that pesky problem of women who wish to be treated as human beings and have their own jobs?

Guys, what planet are you on? Is this sort of thing even vaguely possible? Sure, in a rational society--like Norway or Denmark (high taxes! quasi-socialism!)--where they give more than lip service to supporting families.

Let's ask the question in two ways: 1) why argue for clearly-impractical and unrealistic solutions? And I mean "why:" what motivates such argument? and 2) what would be the martial arts approach to such matters?

Sorry to go all old-fashioned, but isn't martial arts study--in the end--all about self-improvement, and help for others? It seems to me that studying has taught me more and more compassion even if I haven't listened--so am I supposed to throw all that out the window, and take the approach of, "well, do it for yerself, or screw ye, buddy."

By the way, I was very happy to see somebody put the finger on the Objectivist/Ayn Rand claptrap that serves as some of the ideological underpinning for these arguments. Groovy.

Robert

 

[Bob Hubbard]

A martial arts solution?

based on the many schools I've been privilaged to train in, I say this:

one person leads the way, others follow. Along the journey, the group with the leaders help begins to help themselves. Some parts of the group excel at certain things. Those of the group that apply themselves tend to progress at a faster pace than those who only are there casually. Resources are provided for the betterment of all.

Case in point. There was guy at my current school who started 3 months after I did. He is now 2 belt ranks ahead of me. Why? He was at the school 4 nights a week. I was there 2. He hit every class he could, and I took a few months off here, and a few there. 2 years later, he's just shy of 3 belts higher. He applied himself, and I didnt. But, I dont begrudge him his sucess, and we help each other 'debug'.

How could this work in the real world?
A member of the group must return to the group to be a leader, a role model as it were. The group must then use the available resources to progress. If the resources are inadequete for the task at hand, new ones must be obtained. This can be thru loans, grants, endouments, etc.

This group then must serve as the leader for the community. and the community as a role model to the greater. etc.

But. It all starts with one. One person must have the vision, and the tenasity to go the distance. We have these people among us today. They need to get their messages out better.



:asian:

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by chufeng
Interesting how you left out the ACTIVE slavery going on in Africa.
and HOW you want to focus this only on a very samll segment of a very large society...NO, maybe it gets down to what YOU want to get out of the reparations movement...YOU want a check from people that had nothing to do with slavery...and it is a sure bet you weren't a slave...nor your mother or father...Just because you have more melanin than I do, you want a check...that seems a bit racist.
chufeng

I see you have decided that I'm black and have some stake in the reparations issue and decided to attack me personaly. I hate to break it to you but I'm white. You have decided that because slavery exists in uncontroled parts of the world that it has something to do with the current African American experience or even this post. I'll bite, are slaves in other nations American Tax payers? Do are Laws or beliefs effect them? It is effecting us?
I don't mean to offend you but I can totaly understand why you were not given the opportunity to raise a black child. You could fill his head with your interesting ideas and the first time that poor kid opens his mouth it will offend a black people, thus alienating him. Are you going to keep him sheltered or let him learn the hard way? Because its all the hard way in that situation.

 

[Nightingale]

Take a look at the success stories, the ones you hear about... the ones with people born in the ghetto who go to Harvard...the ones who made it to the top. I'll bet you EVERY ONE of them had a mentor of some kind who was already a few rungs higher on the socioeconomic ladder. Be it a teacher, a relative, a church group leader, someone who took that person in hand and assisted them.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by nightingale8472
Take a look at the success stories, the ones you hear about... the ones with people born in the ghetto who go to Harvard...the ones who made it to the top. I'll bet you EVERY ONE of them had a mentor of some kind who was already a few rungs higher on the socioeconomic ladder. Be it a teacher, a relative, a church group leader, someone who took that person in hand and assisted them.

If your suggesting we start having the white community raise the children of the black community I doudt the Idea would be excepted by the black community which incidently is why Chufeng had such a hard time. When there are more black children up for adoption than qualified black families can accomodate then exceptions are reluctantly made. I have no first hand Knowlege but I imagine mixed race couples have preference over a white or non black mixed race families.

 

[Zujitsuka]

This is a very, very controversial issue.

There are a ton of opinions regarding the reparations issue. I can not speak for all black people born in the USA who are descended from slaves, but to me, it is not about the money.

"Why?" you may ask...

My ancestors would roll in their graves if I accepted blood-money - they may have been bought on the auction block, but I have a choice in this matter and I cannot be bought - I'm not a prostitute for sale. Quite frankly, one cannot put a price tag on what was done.

Also, if you give the AVERAGE PERSON (black, white, yellow, etc.) a ton of free money, they will squander it. The average joe is easily seduced by advertisers and buy into the "You just got to have this.", or "All of the big dogs, drive this," etc. Give the average person more money, all that they'll have is more problems.

Nor do I want any other group's pity - I do not have a victim's mentality. I have a success mentality. My people survived one of the most brutal and oppressive systems ever devised. I am proud that I spring from such strong stock.

What was perpetrated against Africans bought to this country and their decendants was shameful, and needs to be publicly stated - the way President Clinton confessed and apologized for the atrocities committed against black men in the south during the 1930's "Tuskeegee Experiment" where poor, uneducated blacks in Alabama were intentionally injected with syphillus just to see what would happen to them and how long they would live. This was in fact a government experiment. The bad thing about President Clinton's public apology is that I bet most of you never heard about it as it wasn't "big news." The media was more concerned with Monica Lewinsky.

As a tax paying black man who also served his country in the Army, all that I want is for the United States government to do:

o Publicly admit to the international community that what was done was wrong

o Include the history of slavery in the educational curriculum as part of American and global history (the way the Jewish Holocaust is covered is a good model).

o Set up a museum and a monument/memorial in Washington, D.C.

o Have a day of observance/remembrance/holiday.

This will be a step in the right direction so that we can all work together and help this country live up to its promise and potential.

Peace & blessings,

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Zujitsuka
As a tax paying black man who also served his country in the Army, all that I want is for the United States government to do:

o Publicly admit to the international community that what was done was wrong

o Include the history of slavery in the educational curriculum as part of American and global history (the way the Jewish Holocaust is covered is a good model).

o Set up a museum and a monument/memorial in Washington, D.C.

o Have a day of observance/remembrance/holiday.

The only thing I could argue about in your entire post is ... why
Washington D.C??? Everyone wants a museum/monument
there. :asian:

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Originally posted by Kirk
The only thing I could argue about in your entire post is ... why
Washington D.C??? Everyone wants a museum/monument
there. :asian:

Probably because the more meaningful monuments go there. The memorial wall for the vietnam KIAs for example.

I think Zujitsuka has some good ideas.


A note on 2 of the sucessful black entreponuers (sp) that I mentioned:
George Halsey made it in the Amway system. He did have a mentor and a support system. Two keys here is that someone gave him a chance, and he took it.

Les Brown also has support. His adoptive mother was a big influence, as well as a teacher and some friends. Alot of what he did he did on his own drive though it seems.

Purhaps the key here is that someone, anyone held out something that many lack. Hope.

Every motivational story I've read has had some outside source offering encouragement, support and a push at some point. I've never to my recolection read of a totally independent 'self made man'.

As to the adoptions, if we believe we are all equal, then the only reason for rejection is racism. Things like hair care, etc can be looked up or found through outside sources. Ask a barber.

If descrimination one way is bad, why is it ok the other way?


What I'd like to know ToD, is why you keep playing the race card and seem to be making so many unfounded assumptions every time someone says something? You called me a racist, yet it seems to me it is you who are posting the more bigoted side of things.

-Bob

 

[chufeng]

Thank you Mr. Turner.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Nightingale]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
If your suggesting we start having the white community raise the children of the black community I doudt the Idea would be excepted by the black community which incidently is why Chufeng had such a hard time. When there are more black children up for adoption than qualified black families can accomodate then exceptions are reluctantly made. I have no first hand Knowlege but I imagine mixed race couples have preference over a white or non black mixed race families.

Please note: I never said anything about race. You did. I merely stated that for someone to have the motivation to "pull themselves up by their bootstraps" and get out of the ghetto, they are usually given a helping hand from someone who's already out. Are you implying that there are no successful minorities capable of mentoring?

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
I think Zujitsuka has some good ideas.

Yes, agreed.

Purhaps the key here is that someone, anyone held out something that many lack. Hope.

Yes--meaning they were prepared when the door of opportunity opened for them.