C
Cyco56
Guest
I was wondering, what is the (main) difference between Remy Presas Modern Arnis and Ernesto Presas Kombatan?
/Cyco56
/Cyco56
I'm not an expert on Ernesto Presas' style, but I understand one difference is a much greater emphasis on double stick techniques.
OP
DWright
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #4
I had the opportunity to attend a Grandmaster Ernesto seminar in June, and found it to be vastly different from the Professors style.
During the training heavy emphasis was placed on double canes, and ground techniques. There was alot of kiai/kihap (yelling) also. I don't remember ever hearing much yelling at Professors training.
I asked Grandmaster Ernesto this very question, and he told me that Modern Arnis, Professors system, is only part of the Kombaton.
During the training heavy emphasis was placed on double canes, and ground techniques. There was alot of kiai/kihap (yelling) also. I don't remember ever hearing much yelling at Professors training.
I asked Grandmaster Ernesto this very question, and he told me that Modern Arnis, Professors system, is only part of the Kombaton.
OP
DWright
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #6
I don't know if they grew up together or not. I do know that Professor left home at an early age, 14 I believe, and traveled the islands. I have always heard that he was alone.
As for Modern Arnis being part of Ernesto's system, he told me that himself. The basics were almost the same, but once he moved on the the intermediate and advanced techniques it was all new. He also had siniwalis that I had never seen.
As for Modern Arnis being part of Ernesto's system, he told me that himself. The basics were almost the same, but once he moved on the the intermediate and advanced techniques it was all new. He also had siniwalis that I had never seen.
The Kombaton sinwallis are impressive... At the WMAA camp last May, Rick Manglinong went over some of the Kombaton concepts and sinwallis. I found the double stickwork to be very impressive.
(then again, I impress easy.)
(then again, I impress easy.)
I was with Ernesto from 1983 to 1993 (he ranked me 5th Dan) and with the Professor from 1994 until his death.
So my knowledge about Ernesto may be a little old, but I saw an exhibition from him about a 2 years ago and it was pretty much the same stuff I have learned.
But coming to the differences:
Ernesto put more emphasis on form and posture, having a proper stance and an upright position. A little more Karate like but not so stiff. Remy really never lost a word about stances. Anyway, one of the main differences I found was, that Ernesto concentrated much more on hitting, butting, striking and Abanicos and also disarmings, where Remy put much more emphasis on controlling, locking takedowns, pins and trappings. Everybody who ever was in his "fangs" knows what I am talking about. Thats why I am really happy to have learned under both. I got "the best of 2 worlds".
Ernesto teaches a little more vartiety of weapons, also Bo (long staff), or palmstick, Sai, Tonfa etc if you want (even Kendo) where Remy concentrated more on the singlestick and empty hands. Of course he also knew the other stuff and occasionally taught it, but when ha taught me, he stayed more within these areas. In the beginning of the 80ies Ernesto had only 3 Sinawalis (Single, Double and Reverse) and almost no drills. Neither empty hands, nor knife. Exept of his "Freestyle sparring" which is a kind of basic Tapi-Tapi. This seemed to have changed, so that he teaches a lot of back and forth drills that you use with interchanging weapons. Where as in a lot of Remys drills, there is a dominating, controlling person and not 2 people playingthe same game.
Ernesto differenciated also more between "Modern Arnis" and "classical Arnis".
A thing the we still do and it gives us sometimes problems, because Remy did not the same way (at least when he taught us).
The difference was, that in the classical styles like Hirada Batanguenia, Palis Palis, Figuer 8 etc, you could inerchange the stick for a machete. In Modern Arnis you could not, because in modern we try to catch (trap) the STICK of the opponent. Something I would never try with a sword. Modern had the modern approach, that in Germany or in the cities of the US, not everybody is wielding a large blade, therfore other techniques (like the catching) could be used. And the classical styles were the roots of the Modern Arnis, because in the Philippined the DO run around with their machetes, at least in the provinces.
One of the biggest differences though is, that Remy was lefthanded and , at least in the late 90ies, he handed this skill onto his students, in his Tapi-Tapi. I don´t say that Ernesto does not have left handed techniques (his son Jan-Jan is left handed and supposed to be really good) but he did not teach to everybody. Remy made all of his students do the right and the left hand in his Tapi-Tapi.
On a very personal note I think, that Remys Modern Arnis was a lot deeper, what really showed in the comparason of the Freestyle of Ernesto (which was very special to him and one should not show this to lower belts, because it was the "secret of the art"). But compared with the amount of techniques, their depth and how intricate and sophisticated they are in the Tapi Tapi, the Freestyle now seems quite shallow to me.
One last word. Remy was not only a Grandmaster, to me he was a Gand Master, also on a peronal level. He was caring and tried to make you learn and make you good. He was very sure aboutm himself and his position. I did not have this impression at all with Ernesto.
I hope that helped.
But please keep in mind, that this is a very personal view and the others might have had different experiences with both ot the Presas brothers.
Regards from Germany
Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Arnis
So my knowledge about Ernesto may be a little old, but I saw an exhibition from him about a 2 years ago and it was pretty much the same stuff I have learned.
But coming to the differences:
Ernesto put more emphasis on form and posture, having a proper stance and an upright position. A little more Karate like but not so stiff. Remy really never lost a word about stances. Anyway, one of the main differences I found was, that Ernesto concentrated much more on hitting, butting, striking and Abanicos and also disarmings, where Remy put much more emphasis on controlling, locking takedowns, pins and trappings. Everybody who ever was in his "fangs" knows what I am talking about. Thats why I am really happy to have learned under both. I got "the best of 2 worlds".
Ernesto teaches a little more vartiety of weapons, also Bo (long staff), or palmstick, Sai, Tonfa etc if you want (even Kendo) where Remy concentrated more on the singlestick and empty hands. Of course he also knew the other stuff and occasionally taught it, but when ha taught me, he stayed more within these areas. In the beginning of the 80ies Ernesto had only 3 Sinawalis (Single, Double and Reverse) and almost no drills. Neither empty hands, nor knife. Exept of his "Freestyle sparring" which is a kind of basic Tapi-Tapi. This seemed to have changed, so that he teaches a lot of back and forth drills that you use with interchanging weapons. Where as in a lot of Remys drills, there is a dominating, controlling person and not 2 people playingthe same game.
Ernesto differenciated also more between "Modern Arnis" and "classical Arnis".
A thing the we still do and it gives us sometimes problems, because Remy did not the same way (at least when he taught us).
The difference was, that in the classical styles like Hirada Batanguenia, Palis Palis, Figuer 8 etc, you could inerchange the stick for a machete. In Modern Arnis you could not, because in modern we try to catch (trap) the STICK of the opponent. Something I would never try with a sword. Modern had the modern approach, that in Germany or in the cities of the US, not everybody is wielding a large blade, therfore other techniques (like the catching) could be used. And the classical styles were the roots of the Modern Arnis, because in the Philippined the DO run around with their machetes, at least in the provinces.
One of the biggest differences though is, that Remy was lefthanded and , at least in the late 90ies, he handed this skill onto his students, in his Tapi-Tapi. I don´t say that Ernesto does not have left handed techniques (his son Jan-Jan is left handed and supposed to be really good) but he did not teach to everybody. Remy made all of his students do the right and the left hand in his Tapi-Tapi.
On a very personal note I think, that Remys Modern Arnis was a lot deeper, what really showed in the comparason of the Freestyle of Ernesto (which was very special to him and one should not show this to lower belts, because it was the "secret of the art"). But compared with the amount of techniques, their depth and how intricate and sophisticated they are in the Tapi Tapi, the Freestyle now seems quite shallow to me.
One last word. Remy was not only a Grandmaster, to me he was a Gand Master, also on a peronal level. He was caring and tried to make you learn and make you good. He was very sure aboutm himself and his position. I did not have this impression at all with Ernesto.
I hope that helped.
But please keep in mind, that this is a very personal view and the others might have had different experiences with both ot the Presas brothers.
Regards from Germany
Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Arnis
Thanks Mr. Knüttel for all that information!
thekuntawman
Purple Belt
i only spent a little bit of time with ernesto presas, from 1988 to 1990.
mr presas was not a show everything teacher. i call him a patient teacher. maybe because i was a local, poor guy, but i think its because he knows we have a different style to learn from foreign students. most of the time i went to manila ( i went there every week for three days) i did not study from him. one of his students will show me something new, and then they would say, practice. i could be there all day on thursday or friday, and practice by myself almost the whole day. but i cannot say he is not a caring person. one air force guy i brought with me sometimes, said he feels like i am getting ripped off because i got little attention, and he got more. but the truth is, i pay 3 times less than he did, and mr presas took me travelling with him a lot. when he went to santo tomas university, he took me with him, and i never had to spent my own money when i travel. he fed us, he pay for the rooms in the hotel, everything, all we had to do is, practice. i learned a lot from him when we went to dinner or lunch, and he always told us, eat more.
when i left the philippines, i did not have a paper except an ID card from ARJUKEN, but i knew all his system up to 2nd degree black belt. i appreciate that. he introduced me to tournament fighting, and taught me how to make my stickfighting look "good". i know that all his europe and american students would not stay if he trained them the same way. but i can say this, many people looked to him like a dad or uncle, and every one from his school, even the girls, knows how to fight and are not scared to go to tournaments. many arnis schools cant say that.
i never met remy presas, but from what i see of his students that i know, the basics are the same, but it looks like his system evolved away from his style in the 1980s. ernesto system has the same root, but he was more into fighting, so his arnis looks closer to how traditional arnis is done everywhere else. but i think both should be learned to appreciate and understand modern arnis presas style.
mr presas was not a show everything teacher. i call him a patient teacher. maybe because i was a local, poor guy, but i think its because he knows we have a different style to learn from foreign students. most of the time i went to manila ( i went there every week for three days) i did not study from him. one of his students will show me something new, and then they would say, practice. i could be there all day on thursday or friday, and practice by myself almost the whole day. but i cannot say he is not a caring person. one air force guy i brought with me sometimes, said he feels like i am getting ripped off because i got little attention, and he got more. but the truth is, i pay 3 times less than he did, and mr presas took me travelling with him a lot. when he went to santo tomas university, he took me with him, and i never had to spent my own money when i travel. he fed us, he pay for the rooms in the hotel, everything, all we had to do is, practice. i learned a lot from him when we went to dinner or lunch, and he always told us, eat more.
when i left the philippines, i did not have a paper except an ID card from ARJUKEN, but i knew all his system up to 2nd degree black belt. i appreciate that. he introduced me to tournament fighting, and taught me how to make my stickfighting look "good". i know that all his europe and american students would not stay if he trained them the same way. but i can say this, many people looked to him like a dad or uncle, and every one from his school, even the girls, knows how to fight and are not scared to go to tournaments. many arnis schools cant say that.
i never met remy presas, but from what i see of his students that i know, the basics are the same, but it looks like his system evolved away from his style in the 1980s. ernesto system has the same root, but he was more into fighting, so his arnis looks closer to how traditional arnis is done everywhere else. but i think both should be learned to appreciate and understand modern arnis presas style.
Dan Anderson
Master of Arts
My two cents worth here. I don't have any information of GM Ernesto Presas' other teachers/influences in Filipino martial arts besides his brother Remy, but one must keep in mind that while Remy Presas was in the US (from 1974 on), Ernesto was in the Philippines. The number of influences on his art could have been many indeed. He also had time to construct a step by step curriculum. I do know from his books that he includes classical arnis as part of his teaching regimen. He, too, told me that Modern Arnis was a part of Kombatan. Whether he means it is one of the influences of Kombatan or any other meaning one could insert here, he didn't say and I didn't ask. He is a senior and it is not my place to query or grill my seniors.
Dieter Knuettel or the Kuntawman would be better people to ask as they had studied under Ernesto Presas and I have only met him.
One thing I do want to say is that I have nothing but good to say about GM Ernesto Presas and the members of his association. GM Ernesto Presas treats me with an affinity usually reserved for students and his students and I get along very well. Especially that rascally rabbit, Mike Bowers, who runs a Kombatan school close to my neck of the woods and Rick Manglinong who I met at Datu Tim Hartman's 2002 WMAA Summer Camp and we got along better than brothers.
Yours,
Dan Anderson
PS - Say, Dinelle. The book is out in hard copy form now...
A Letter to the Editor in the current issue of Inside Kung Fu addresses the differences between the arts of Remy and Ernestor Presas and also their history.
It also points out that the latter's picture was used in the magazine recently when the former's was desired.
It also points out that the latter's picture was used in the magazine recently when the former's was desired.
The letter I mentioned was from Jose G. Paman of California.
Incidentally the magazine also carried an article by Mark Mikita on FMA counter-for-counter drills. It featured Joe Hyams and Czech actress Ava Jensen as well.
Incidentally the magazine also carried an article by Mark Mikita on FMA counter-for-counter drills. It featured Joe Hyams and Czech actress Ava Jensen as well.
