Religion VS.Art

[Kyosanim]

It's surely up the individual. Both one's practice of religion and art (even the drawing type) are very personal expressions. So there is no right or wrong answer.

That said, the idea that martial arts and religion are separated to begin might be a fallacious statement to start with. As stated in the other thread, many martial arts/physical exercise forms were either designed by their creator to have religious aspects to them or they acquired them over time.

aikido: Omoto
Japanese karate: Zen Buddhism
Shorinji kempo: Buddhism
yoga: Hinduism

Granted, many today practice these arts without the religious aspects, which indicates it is a personal thing as I first stated.

This is a GREAT point and a very enlightened attitude.

 

[Mark Lynn]

In the thread Christian Martial Arts somebody said should religion be a part of TKD, well leys go a head and ask this question should any religion really be a part of any art? I know for me religion should not be in the Dojaang, my beliefs are just that mine and should not be dictated to my students. I know alot people believe it should be, but lets ask why? What give you the right to pearch your views about religion to the student you are training? I do talk about Tenets but do not fell them being the same.

Terry

But religion is in the dojan/martial art training halls all over the world.

1) What is sacrificing a chicken and pouring blood over the initiate with the shaman as depicted in the episode of Human Weapon on the FMA but a religious ritual?

2) Ueshiba sensei who created AIKIDO got the idea for his martial art from a religious experience on top of a mountain. And Aikido was his expression of that experience translated into martial or physical techniques and principles. (More on Aikido from the book referenced in point 5.)

Pg 194 "Like Kano, Ueshiba saw obvious problems in propagating a combat-oriented art and decided that the higher ideals of a martial way or -do were better suited to the 20th century Japanese society. In 1938, there fore he began to teach his new "way of divine harmony" or aikido" "A sophisticated understanding of the nature of Ki or vital force, a concept called chi in Chinese...is central to aikido. Indeed the concepts on which Ueshiba drew are directly descended from the great neo-Cofucian schools of Chinese philosophy.....Ueshiba formulated his school of aikido along classic lines. He placed perfection of techniques in conjunction with the sophistication of mind and spirit in the student...


3) What is the the whole theory or belief systems based on dim mak, pressure points etc. etc. but a religious belief system? How often have we taught or heard the terms "Strong conquers weak and hard destroys soft" or "Fire defeats wood, metal defeats wood, Water defeats fire etc. etc." I apologize if I get these out of order but my point is this comes from Taosim thought.

4) The use of the tattoed spells on the Filipino warriors arms or legs to keep them safe in battle and skirmishes.

5) Referring to the Indian martial art Kalaripayit in "The Fighting Arts by Reid and Croucher pg 38 " The are fewer elaborate altars to the HIndu gods in the southern training grounds, although students of both styles must perfrom salutations to both their martial gods and goddesses, and their masters, before training. A whole pantheon of gods is associated with the kalari, but the principle figure is Kali, goddess of war."

6) Same book pg 148 on Bushido "Many centuries after the foundation of the school (Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu) Zen Buddist influences affected the Japanese martial arts......the Japanese warrior committing himself to primarily to following a path aimed at spiritual development through martial training. The effectiveness or otherwise of that training in combat became of secondary importance."

7) Same book speaking of Kyudo (way of archery) pg 185 "Today, these customs are practiced in accordance with the teachings of Zen Buddhism....Eventually, even the use of the halberd, various types of staff and other medieval weapons was transformed into quasi-religious activities in which perfection of form rather than function became the ultimate goal."

My point being that much of what is taught today in the TMA is based on religious thought and principles that were brought into the martial arts 100's of years ago and sometimes much more recent like the modern Japanese arts.

Arts that we hand down as martial ways have been corrupted by the influences of Zen Buddism and other Eastern religious thought where form is more important than function, or expressing a way of blending with my opponent or developing KI as a viable method of self defense instead of beating the **** out of the assailant.

Now it seems that some people can bash a Christian instructor who may or may not promote his/her faith to their class, and they not or may not even promote their class as a "Christian" class in TKD and yet the rest of this is totally accepted.

You might say "I'm teaching a martial art not a religion" but are you? I had a pressure point instructor once tell me that as a Christian and he qualified it, that he was a Baptist deacon, that he found no problem with studying the five element theory as it related to pressure points and acupuncture and such to further his study in pressure point application for katas, bunkai etc. etc. So as a Christian I thought well this guys knows what he is doing, and he is a Deacon, and to be a Deacon he must be a knowledgeable guy right? Cool I'm going to learn pressure point fighting YEEHAW. Until I read the material he recommended and a Christian brother and I debated what I was reading against the bible and then well as a believer I couldn't go down that road. But this "Christian Baptist deacon" was promoting another religion under the guise of pressure point study.

For the record I do believe that any instructor should teach martial arts and not martial religion in class. However I believe the Christian who says I'm teaching a martial art based on Christian principles up front is honorable even more so now when I looked into this other stuff. Likewise if I wanted to study Indian martial arts and I had to bow to their gods and goddesses than that is up to me, but no one should tell them that they don't have the right for to have me do it if I want to be their student.

I mean no disrespect here and I know this is a long post, I'm not trying to bash any particular style/system/or religious belief. Dancing alone's post stated basically what I believe and how I started this post out, but with the point being that religious expression is found in all arts across the globe, however as I was looking for back up (references) I kept running across the concepts of the eastern thought and I saw how much of it relates to really what I believe many of us teach but maybe not with that purpose/influence.

Mark

 

[Brother John]

It's surely up the individual. Both one's practice of religion and art (even the drawing type) are very personal expressions. So there is no right or wrong answer.

That said, the idea that martial arts and religion are separated to begin might be a fallacious statement to start with. As stated in the other thread, many martial arts/physical exercise forms were either designed by their creator to have religious aspects to them or they acquired them over time.

aikido: Omoto
Japanese karate: Zen Buddhism
Shorinji kempo: Buddhism
yoga: Hinduism

Granted, many today practice these arts without the religious aspects, which indicates it is a personal thing as I first stated.

One of those arts you mention stands out to me as different.
Aikido has a strong relationship with Omoto, but one can delve to it's depths and never adhere to Omoto. (MY opinion)
Japanese Karate: I disagree.
Yoga: Not a martial art, but yes...designed not AS a religion, but very much a 'side car' to Hindu-ism.

Shorinji Kempo is the only one (To my knowledge) has religion as an inherent feature. It has Kongo-Zen as it's underpinning and IS itself registered and recognized AS a religion in Japan.

Your Brother
John

 

[dancingalone]

Aikido has a strong relationship with Omoto, but one can delve to it's depths and never adhere to Omoto. (MY opinion)

Yes, I did say it was a personal decision to practice the religious ideals or not, as one pleases.

Japanese Karate: I disagree.

Not sure how you can. Concepts such as mushin no shin have found their way into many Japanese martial arts including karate and kendo. They came from Zen.

If you want to say the karate YOU are familiar with does not use ideas like mushin or fudoshin or etc., that's fine.

 

[Tez3]

Yes, I did say it was a personal decision to practice the religious ideals or not, as one pleases.



Not sure how you can. Concepts such as mushin no shin have found their way into many Japanese martial arts including karate and kendo. They came from Zen.

If you want to say the karate YOU are familiar with does not use ideas like mushin or fudoshin or etc., that's fine.

But are they particularly religious ideas or are they more philosophical? The idea of being charitable is mentioned in many religions but is also thought to be something intrinsic in human beings.

I don't believe the martial arts were designed to have religious aspects in them at all, I think those aspects are there because the people creating those arts have the aspects with them all the time.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I am neutral to the idea.

Being of a Christian persuasion (Catholic), I would have no problem training at a Christian studio, provided that the primary focus of the studio was the teaching and training of martial arts.

By the same token, I am equally comfortable in non religious studios or studios that have a distinct religious flavor other than that of Christianity. I train for the physical skills. My spirituality is a part of my martial practice, but in an internal, personal way. I do not make overt religious expressions in class as a student and I do not make it a part of my lessons when I teach.

I think that there is a segment of the population that has a need for a "Christian dojo," so such studios meet a legitimate need. There is a segment of the population that enjoys watching golf. I am not part of that segment. I choose not to watch golf, but I think that it is great that the games are broadcast so that those who do enjoy golf can do so.

The only time that I would have an issue with an overtly religious studio (regardless of the religion) is if they were not up front about it. I want to know going in that religion is an integral part of the class. Then I can decide if I want to train there or no.

But so long as everything is up front, I see no problem with it. If you don't like that kind of school, don't train there. I don't see why people see it as an issue.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

But are they particularly religious ideas or are they more philosophical? The idea of being charitable is mentioned in many religions but is also thought to be something intrinsic in human beings.

Everyone wants to dance around it, but Zen is definitely a sect of Buddhism. The goal within Zen like all Mahayana sects is to become a 'living Buddha' through introspection and other means.

Many Westerners like the various meditative ideals and practices within Zen so they've latched onto those aspects while ignoring the rest which are somewhat incompatible with Christianity or other religions. This is perfectly acceptable to me, but I'm always bemused by the idea that Zen itself is not religion. That really depends on how one thinks and practices it. Certainly it was a religion at one point and still is to many.

I don't believe the martial arts were designed to have religious aspects in them at all, I think those aspects are there because the people creating those arts have the aspects with them all the time.

Well as mentioned above, you would be incorrect with respect to aikido and shorinji kempo. They were expressively designed by their creators to have distinct links to the religion their founders follow.

 

[Brother John]

Not sure how you can. Concepts such as mushin no shin have found their way into many Japanese martial arts including karate and kendo. They came from Zen.

If you want to say the karate YOU are familiar with does not use ideas like mushin or fudoshin or etc., that's fine.

Oh, I see what you're saying.
Concepts like you mention do have their origins in Zen, that's true. But I view those things more as very late additions that were brought in by some. Those concepts (and those like them) are much more prevalent in arts like Jujutsu and Kenjutsu, Kyudo...etc. To my way of thinking, the way they're applied in the martial arts is more like "psychology" than as a religious expression. But you are correct, such concepts are found in Karate-Do; and they did originate in Buddhism.

Your Brother
John

 

[Tez3]

Everyone wants to dance around it, but Zen is definitely a sect of Buddhism. The goal within Zen like all Mahayana sects is to become a 'living Buddha' through introspection and other means.

Many Westerners like the various meditative ideals and practices within Zen so they've latched onto those aspects while ignoring the rest which are somewhat incompatible with Christianity or other religions. This is perfectly acceptable to me, but I'm always bemused by the idea that Zen itself is not religion. That really depends on how one thinks and practices it. Certainly it was a religion at one point and still is to many.



Well as mentioned above, you would be incorrect with respect to aikido and shorinji kempo. They were expressively designed by their creators to have distinct links to the religion their founders follow.

I don't see anyone avoiding the subject and I was just asking!

I believe we are thinking about religions in a western way ( obvious really lol being westerners) with it's separations from everyday life. The reason I think that martials arts weren't formed with religion in mind specifically is because I think religion to the orignators of martial arts would be a far more every day thing. They would no more have left religion out of anything they did than they would have stopped eating or sleeping. They weren't secular peole who said right this martial art is going to be based on this religion, no, I think they naturally enfolded their art with their religon as they would have done everything else.

 

[dancingalone]

They weren't secular peole who said right this martial art is going to be based on this religion, no, I think they naturally enfolded their art with their religon as they would have done everything else.

That's probably true. At the same time, the various articles and interviews written by people who actually trained with Ueshiba or Doshin Sho show they were very much concerned with promoting their belief systems. Whether you want to call it religion or philosophy, it's still nonetheless true that both men EVANGELIZED to their students and associates.

Here's a quite good article about religion and aikido that may help reconcile the seeming dichotomy. It essentially says something to the same effect you do, but it connects the dots for us too. For Ueshiba, the practice of aikido was very much also one of his own religious experiences. So, the two were irrevocably linked in his conception of the art.

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=2

It is sometimes said that aikido is not itself a religion but that aikido practice ‘completes’ or ‘complements’ religious beliefs and practice. I wonder whether this typically Japanese way of thinking does not bear traces of the Omoto-kyo idea described above. The idea that aikido practice complements one’s religious activities is harmless enough, but this is quite different from the notion that a religion like Christianity, for example, or Islam is somehow ‘incomplete’ and that a martial art, albeit one based on love, will somehow bring it to perfection. I would not expect the average Christian or Muslim to take kindly to this way of thinking. There is also a problem of terminology. It might well be true that aikido is not a religion in the strict sense of a body of people united by the same beliefs about the divine, but the Founder clearly considered that he was engaged in an activity which was, to all intents and purposes, religious.

 

[Tez3]

When you say evangilised though, what religion were the students to start with? May it have been a case of perhaps widening the knowledge students already possessed and clarifying the beliefs they already held?

I suspect that the Japanese don't compartmentalise the different parts of our lives the way we tend to, perhaps seeing life as a whole. It may explain too their very long working day!

 

[dancingalone]

When you say evangilised though, what religion were the students to start with? May it have been a case of perhaps widening the knowledge students already possessed and clarifying the beliefs they already held?

I'm sure he had students who were Shinto, Buddhist, Christian, and atheist. Omoto is generally considered to be a Shinto off-shoot, and both religions are hard to describe at least for me. Certainly neither are monotheist faiths like Christianity is.

Ueshiba is mentioned in several accounts as quoting or reading frequently to his students from the writings of Onisaburo Deguchi, the Omoto Kyo founder. Evangelism is practice of relaying information about a particular set of beliefs to others who do not hold those beliefs, and I would imagine his instruction included a fair measure of that, particularly because Aikido is more than just physical fighting techniques.

 

[Tez3]

I'm sure he had students who were Shinto, Buddhist, Christian, and atheist. Omoto is generally considered to be a Shinto off-shoot, and both religions are hard to describe at least for me. Certainly neither are monotheist faiths like Christianity is.

Ueshiba is mentioned in several accounts as quoting or reading frequently to his students from the writings of Onisaburo Deguchi, the Omoto Kyo founder. Evangelism is practice of relaying information about a particular set of beliefs to others who do not hold those beliefs, and I would imagine his instruction included a fair measure of that, particularly because Aikido is more than just physical fighting techniques.

I have visions of students flying through the air, landing heavily on the tatami to the accompanying readings!!

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

That's probably true. At the same time, the various articles and interviews written by people who actually trained with Ueshiba or Doshin Sho show they were very much concerned with promoting their belief systems. Whether you want to call it religion or philosophy, it's still nonetheless true that both men EVANGELIZED to their students and associates.

Here's a quite good article about religion and aikido that may help reconcile the seeming dichotomy. It essentially says something to the same effect you do, but it connects the dots for us too. For Ueshiba, the practice of aikido was very much also one of his own religious experiences. So, the two were irrevocably linked in his conception of the art.

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=2

It is sometimes said that aikido is not itself a religion but that aikido practice ‘completes’ or ‘complements’ religious beliefs and practice. I wonder whether this typically Japanese way of thinking does not bear traces of the Omoto-kyo idea described above. The idea that aikido practice complements one’s religious activities is harmless enough, but this is quite different from the notion that a religion like Christianity, for example, or Islam is somehow ‘incomplete’ and that a martial art, albeit one based on love, will somehow bring it to perfection. I would not expect the average Christian or Muslim to take kindly to this way of thinking. There is also a problem of terminology. It might well be true that aikido is not a religion in the strict sense of a body of people united by the same beliefs about the divine, but the Founder clearly considered that he was engaged in an activity which was, to all intents and purposes, religious.

I don't know. That way of thinking does not bother me at all. The foundational principles of Aikido practice actually mesh quite well with Christianity. On a superficial level, it enables one to 'turn the other cheek' in such a way that one is not just standing there as a punching bag, but is not returning violence with violence.

Daniel