Religion?Sport?Hobby?or Way of Life?

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Kirk

We've never done it to each other, we salute, hand over fist.

What does this hand over fist represent?
Is it a technique or some sort of other meaning?

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan




What does this hand over fist represent?
Is it a technique or some sort of other meaning?

Not at technique, although used in our forms and sets.
Short answer: to indicate respect to one you are greeting or competing against at a tournament, in opening and closing a class, etc.

Long answer, for what little I know:

The Taoist and Buddhist monks traveled across China spreading their doctrine. As they traveled their hands were held in a prayful manor. The warrior monks began to travel with the peaceful monks for two reasons; one, to protect the more passive monks, and two, to use their avocation in society as a cover to spread their knowledge to force the hated Mongols out of China. When some of the monks began to fight with great ability, rumors began to spread that all of these monks were fierce warriors.
There were many secret societies at this time. The warrior monks, many who were members of a secret society developed the hand salute, hand over fist, as a variation of the praying hands of the peaceful monks. This continued to be the "greeting or salute" used today by the EPAK system.

The EPAK Salutation is a combination of the "old and the new." The initial part of our salute honors the originators of the art, the Chinese. Prior to the establishment of what was called "Shao-lin," an open left hand resting on a clenched right fist was used as a salutation or salute just before the commencement of a set or form. There were several meanings to this gesture:

(1) Respect to the originator of the particular system, including all who had studied before him, with him, and presently study under him.

(2) Respect to those who would spectate and observe the movements.

(3) Respect to both scholars and warriors who were practitioners alike, since the left hand (open) of this salutation represented the scholar and the right hand (clenched), the man who actually executed the science the warrior

 

[RyuShiKan]

I believe the hand salutation is called Sun Moon fist in Chinese.
We have the exact same move for the opening move in one of our kata, it is actually a technique that hurts like hell.
As in all MA there is no wasted motion so even a salutation can be a defense.

 

[Kirk]

No argument there, that is a philosophy emphasized in EPAK (no
wasted motion). It may very well be used in a technique, but
I'm not aware of it yet ... I'm NOT trying to call you out, I'm
sincerely wanting to know ... can you explain further, regarding
using it as a defense?

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Kirk

... can you explain further, regarding
using it as a defense?

Sorry I have found the Internet a miserable tool for conveying how to do technique.............ya just have to see it and feel it to understand it.

Aren't you the guy that was slinging mud my way in another thread and now you want me to be your "pal" and share some technique with you?
I find that rather odd.........

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan




Sorry I have found the Internet a miserable tool for conveying how to do technique.............ya just have to see it and feel it to understand it.

Fair enough.

 

[Wertle]

Sorry I have found the Internet a miserable tool for conveying how to do technique.............ya just have to see it and feel it to understand it.

We need a webcam demonstration section! ^_^

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Wertle



We need a webcam demonstration section! ^_^

Interesting thought............wonder why nobody has done it before ................or maybe they have.

 

[fissure]

I was told by one Korean Master( I use the term loosley) that the 'hand covering the fist' bow/salute coveys a 'veiled weapon' to the person you are bowing to. Why you would give this message to someone you are about to pummle, I have no idea!
It aslo pops up in the 7th Taeguek form. Some beleive this is a "readying" motion, others ( myself included) read a stricking motion to the middle secton.
Lifewise as to your neighbour - one guy in my neighbourhood has his house painted pink.There are nuts all over the place!:EG:

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by fissure

Some beleive this is a "readying" motion, others ( myself included) read a stricking motion to the middle secton.

I've heard that more with Naihanchi Shodan's open hand over open hand. The open hand over fist I've heard as an allegory of shield/weapon or covered weapon etc. but George Dillman teaches it as a wristlock which I like (the idea of, not so much this particualr lock). The open hand is grabbing a hand that's grabbed the wrist of the closed hand and the hands are moving to execute a lock.

 

[Matt Stone]

But rather than share it and get attacked as a "know it all," I'll just remain silent and keep it to myself...

:shrug:

Gambarimasu.

 

[fissure]

The open hand is grabbing a hand that's grabbed the wrist of the closed hand and the hands are moving to execute a lock.

This sounds more like the movement of Shotokan's Kanku - sho(sp) where the hand covers the wrist. I'm having truoble invisioning the hand covering the front of the fist being used in this way.I'm not saying your wrong I'm going to think on this some more

 

[Wertle]

Interesting thought............wonder why nobody has done it before ................or maybe they have.

It might be a useful resource for us visual-spacial learners, but I know I'd be uncontrollabley camera shy, and would probably implode before demonstrating a technique on a webcam x_x

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

But rather than share it and get attacked as a "know it all," I'll just remain silent and keep it to myself...

That's a shame.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by fissure


This sounds more like the movement of Shotokan's Kanku - sho(sp) where the hand covers the wrist. I'm having truoble invisioning the hand covering the front of the fist being used in this way.I'm not saying your wrong I'm going to think on this some more

We may be picturing it differently; I see the hand on the back of the fist (as in backfist), not the front.

 

[Matt Stone]

But after the last exchange, I figure I will let those who are junior in the arts figure stuff out for themselves rather than help them in their pursuits...

They, after all, know far more than the rest of us...

Those who would like an alternate version of the reasons behind the open hand/closed fist salute can feel free to email me privately...

Gambarimasu.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by arnisador



We may be picturing it differently; I see the hand on the back of the fist (as in backfist), not the front.

You might be since the hand movement is different in those 2 kata.

 

[fissure]

We may be picturing it differently; I see the hand on the back of the fist (as in backfist), not the front

I beleive we are thinking of different motons.I took hand covering fist, to relate to the front 'punching' knuckles.

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

But after the last exchange, I figure I will let those who are junior in the arts figure stuff out for themselves rather than help them in their pursuits...

They, after all, know far more than the rest of us...

Those who would like an alternate version of the reasons behind the open hand/closed fist salute can feel free to email me privately...

Gambarimasu.

You just can't let sleeping dogs lie, can you? You complained
about my actions, yet you're egging me on. I never used the
term "Know it all" go back and check. Insulting and arrogant
was definitely used, and I still stand by that. And I never said
I knew more than you. I did say that in the art that I study, I
have been told something contrary to what you are saying.
I also said you're a mean person. Regardless of your training,
your service to this country, or where you're from, when you
strip away the layers .... you're just mean. I stand by that
statement as well. Funny .. in my insignificant studies so far,
I was under the impression that Japanese M.A. taught humility
as well .. guess not. Hey, that's one thing you've taught me,
thank you.

So are you now saying that you're not going to share your
knowledge anymore? Then why bother posting here anymore?
Why don't you just leave?

 

[AvPKenpo]

Originally posted by lifewise

I have this neighbour that ... well, she is a lovely woman and means well but she is rather nosey and VERY opinionated as I experienced this morning.

Oh, forgot to add outspoken!

My daughter and I were out in the backyard practicing. My daughter studies EPAK and TKD, and I am solely Kenpo. Our yard is totally fenced in and has many large bushes/trees on the perimeter to provide privacy - or so I thought.

Seems the other day this lady watched us sparring in the back yard from her upstairs window. This appears to be the worst thing a mother can do with her child according to this woman...

I am teaching her to be aggressive apparently. She continued to tell me that I am not helping the violence in the world by showing my daughter how to trip someone and hit them with that big stick. (the bo we were using)

All this she was willing to overlook until this morning. She felt compelled to come over and confront me after watching us practice EPAK salutation.

This woman is very religious and she didn't hesitate to tell me her views on my family/friends and our martial arts practice.

So here is a question for all the folks on martial talk - is the practice of martial arts a religion? In many arts, students follow a "master". There are those individuals that studied directly with this "master" so are they "disciples"? Those who practice continue to "spread the word" or art and in doing so we "recruit" new souls?

This morning has been an interesting one ... lets see what your comments are.

:asian:

P.S. I will use the asian bow here, hopefully no one is watching through the window! :rofl:

My first thought is to invite your nosey neighbor over, and use her to demonstrate dance of death to your daughter.
I am religous person also, we are not disciples we do not worship the person that heads what ever art we study. Think of it this way, just becuase I go to school and there is a "schoolmaster" and I am a student does that also mean that I worship them. Of course not. If your neighbor does not want to understand this, then who cares. If she keeps doing a "peeping tom", and you find this irritating, then call the cops on her. hehehe Sorry I don't have a lot of tolerance for people that act like that. But she is invading your privacy.

Michael