Reality / Pressure testing

[Domino]

Wanted to reach out for info on pressure testing our arts, what can I do to better myself?

I struggle in real time to apply certain techniques so stay with our staple

I am aware the problems lie in my own journey / more realistic training and still need to learn, what techniques or help can you offer in terms of drills or advice.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Nothing against Wing Chun, I am rather impressed by it actually

Spar with styles other than Wing Chun... basically check what you know against what others know... and that goes for any style

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Good advise above from Xue!

 

[geezer]

Am I the only one old enough to remember the saying, "Reality is only for people who can't get drugs?"

Sure "pressure testing" can be helpful... but a lot of the people who talk about "reality" and "the streets" choose a very particular reality and apply it very broadly ...if you know what I mean. Just another random observation from the Geezer.

 

[Jake104]

Wanted to reach out for info on pressure testing our arts, what can I do to better myself?

I struggle in real time to apply certain techniques so stay with our staple

I am aware the problems lie in my own journey / more realistic training and still need to learn, what techniques or help can you offer in terms of drills or advice.

Probably some of the best advise I ever got was from my Sifu when I first started training. . He said " against a good striker you will NOT be able to block everything, you are going to get hit."

You may block the first couple but eventually if the opponent goes un checked, meaning you don't return fire right away, you will be hit and may be overtaken by strikes. This is not to say just go chain punch crazy. I personally do not chain punch . At least not in the classical/ mainstream sense. I mix up the levels high middle low.

You will find even the fastest strikers will slow down a bit when your punches are landing and he feels some pain. Pain demoralizes and makes people second guess themselves. You will be amazed at how well your techniques will work when this happens.

Another thing to consider is being hit is just as important. Because if you are not used to getting hit. You may be the one who gets demoralized and second guesses himself.

Of coarse there are other factors like timing and range. But that will come with time. But the correct mindset/ mentality IMO is much more important. Good luck!

 

[mook jong man]

Depends what you consider "Pressure" doesn't it mate.

One man's concept of extreme pressure maybe just a "Walk in the park cuddling fluffy puppies to another man.
It's all relative isn't it.

I'm not going to get into the whole going around sparring people of different systems thing , there is certainly merit in that , but most people have trouble enough making time to attend their own school let alone making time time to go to other peoples schools or spar outside of class time.

Most attacks whether they be hand / leg can be categorised as either circular (they will come around either side of your guard ) ie hook punch ,haymaker etc.
Or direct ( straight down your guard) ie jab , Wing Chun centreline punch.
They can also come in high or low ( above your guard or underneath it ).
There is also some overlap in this , a linear strike can also be aimed just off the centreline so it is on the outside of your guard aimed at your cheek bone or eye.
But without complicating it too much , they are basically circular or straight , high or low.

This is where we start to get into the territory of what we call in our lineage "Random Arms" and "Random Legs"
Eventually striving to be able to stop any random attack.

I assume Domino that you have "Four Corner Deflection in your lineage " that should be your first port of call.
Work on stopping circular punches to the head and gut like hooks and uppercuts.

Here are few things I wrote a while ago , they are drills and exercises to develop reflex.
They maybe of some use to you.
Fair bit of reading there mate , but you might find something in there you can use.


http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?67018-Four-Corner-Deflection&highlight=

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?90528-Chi-Sau-vs-The-Flurry&highlight=

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?89648-Reflecting-The-Elbow&highlight=

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?68775-Reflex-exercise&highlight=

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?79279-Bong-to-Tan-vs-High-Low-Strike&highlight=

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...i-pad-to-test-structure-and-stance&highlight=


The important thing to remember is that you start with these drills and ramp up the intensity , they are a stepping stone so that you have the attributes to handle random attack.

But at the end of the day they are only exercises and at some point you must accept that training at close range and realistic speed you will be hit .

It is imperative that you include the random stuff in your training , because this is where you learn to improvise on the "Fly" so to speak.
Such as you think he's going to throw (A) but he throws (B) so in turn you have to convert your original defence to something else in order to not be hit.

The defensive patterned sequences are great for developing a variety of things , but some things can only be developed by going "Random" with the threat of being hit .

Also it's worth remembering that whilst padding up with head gear , mouth guards , gloves , doing rbsd scenarios etc can certainly up the adrenaline level , it is not exactly the same as that horrible feeling of fear and dread that seems to hit you in the pit of the stomach when you've got two big blokes standing in front of you intending to do you harm and you realise you may have to do it for real , they certainly help.

But that feeling is really something you can only deal with the best you can.

 

[KamonGuy2]

One thing I have found incredibly valuable, is putting 14oz gloves on and 'going at it' with other like minded guys. There is nothing more informative and real than having another human being wanting to knock you out. Of course, Im not encouraging people to go out and get themselves hurt, but until you have experienced that kind of thing, you will always fear a punch. Over time I found that I didnt fear strikes as much as before. Its hard to do this using chun techniques, but again, as time goes on, you can learn to utilize your wing chun effectively against such pressure coming in

 

[mook jong man]

Also one thing I found is with the headgear on you tend to get hit a lot more than when you have no headgear on , it seems to mess up your peripheral vision.
So what I do is take off the plastic cage bit off the front and just have the padding around the cheek bones and head.
You still get hit but at least you can see what the hell it was that hit you and work to rectify it.
Make sure you still wear a mouthguard though.

Another thing worth doing is both putting the headgear on and with no gloves you do a bit of chi sau with trapping and hitting to the head , that will help locate any holes in your defense of your head area.

 

[Josh Oakley]

Also one thing I found is with the headgear on you tend to get hit a lot more than when you have no headgear on , it seems to mess up your peripheral vision.
So what I do is take off the plastic cage bit off the front and just have the padding around the cheek bones and head.
You still get hit but at least you can see what the hell it was that hit you and work to rectify it.
Make sure you still wear a mouthguard though.

Another thing worth doing is both putting the headgear on and with no gloves you do a bit of chi sau with trapping and hitting to the head , that will help locate any holes in your defense of your head area.

Well if we are talking realism, your peripheral vision can often go away in a confrontation...

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk

 

[mook jong man]

Well if we are talking realism, your peripheral vision can often go away in a confrontation...

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk

Yes under the effects of adrenaline you do get tunnel vision , but at the close range that we train at we need all the vision we can get and those little bars at the front of the headgear impair vision and reflex to the point where you don't pick up low kicks to the shins, fast punches to the gut or head.

They might work for longer range systems where you have a larger field of vision , but at our range not too well , I prefer to take it off , and if one sneaks through so be it , but at least I know what it was that hit me.

 

[yak sao]

I have a couple of the Pro Force head gear w/ face cage, and you're right...the lower bars are right in your field of vision vs low kicks and punches.
What I did to fix this is simply cut them off and wrap the exposed ends in electrical tape. This way I still have a majority of the face protected, plus now I can see the low shots.
The structural integrity might be an issue, but I'm not going against Mike Tyson, so it works.

 

[mook jong man]

I have a couple of the Pro Force head gear w/ face cage, and you're right...the lower bars are right in your field of vision vs low kicks and punches.
What I did to fix this is simply cut them off and wrap the exposed ends in electrical tape. This way I still have a majority of the face protected, plus now I can see the low shots.
The structural integrity might be an issue, but I'm not going against Mike Tyson, so it works.

That's a bloody good idea mate I will have to try that .
Mine have got two main horizontal bars covering the upper face and two smaller vertical bars down near the mouth, so you cut the bottom ones off , have I got it right.
You can tell the person who designed it never did Wing Chun that's for sure.

 

[K-man]

Sounds like we all do similar things. Our pressure testing is at the same close range and we probably do have slightly obstructed vision with the full face protectors. I'm not as concerned about the kicks as we are mainly inside kicking distance. It's the knee to the groin that can bring a tear to the eye, even with a cup, and sometimes I think you could be better off without one. We don't use gloves as you can't use the hands as effectively, although on occasion we will use mits.

The most important thing from my point of view, is actually being hit. So many people I know train 'no contact' and if they accidentally get hit they instinctively stop. I don't try to hit hard to the head for reasons we have discussed elsewhere, but I have no aversion to giving and receiving a few to the torso. After a while you don't notice if someone gives you a wack.

Another form of pressure testing we often do is to have about six guys in a circle and one in the middle. They are all allowed to attack at will and with reasonable force. Because it can get out of hand easily, I make it that the guy in the middle can defend but not strike back. It can induce a fair bit of stress at times, and it certainly hones the defensive skills and develops the ability to remain relaxed under pressure.

 

[yak sao]

That's a bloody good idea mate I will have to try that .
Mine have got two main horizontal bars covering the upper face and two smaller vertical bars down near the mouth, so you cut the bottom ones off , have I got it right.
You can tell the person who designed it never did Wing Chun that's for sure.

Right. And with gloves of some type on, there is still a small enough space to keep the hands out.

 

[yak sao]

We are predominantly hands as well. But when we practice lat sau, we have one person play the part of the non WC guy, and until you close the gap and get in to where you want to be, it is very helpful to see attacks to the lower gate.

 

[mook jong man]

Sounds like we all do similar things. Our pressure testing is at the same close range and we probably do have slightly obstructed vision with the full face protectors. I'm not as concerned about the kicks as we are mainly inside kicking distance. It's the knee to the groin that can bring a tear to the eye, even with a cup, and sometimes I think you could be better off without one. We don't use gloves as you can't use the hands as effectively, although on occasion we will use mits.

The most important thing from my point of view, is actually being hit. So many people I know train 'no contact' and if they accidentally get hit they instinctively stop. I don't try to hit hard to the head for reasons we have discussed elsewhere, but I have no aversion to giving and receiving a few to the torso. After a while you don't notice if someone gives you a wack.

Another form of pressure testing we often do is to have about six guys in a circle and one in the middle. They are all allowed to attack at will and with reasonable force. Because it can get out of hand easily, I make it that the guy in the middle can defend but not strike back. It can induce a fair bit of stress at times, and it certainly hones the defensive skills and develops the ability to remain relaxed under pressure.

I have done similar exercises to that before , one we used to call "The Tunnel of Death" where the whole class forms two lines and one person walks down the centre and gets attacked at random by anyone in the line.

The other good one I've done before was called " The Cauldron" at a Krav seminar and it was very much like the circle drill you described.
You are in the centre of a large circle of people and multiple people are nominated to enter the circle and attack you
But as you move around to position yourself to keep them lined up , if you get too close to the edge of the circle, the people that are forming the ring will keep shoving you back into the centre.
It just adds another level of pressure to an already chaotic situation.

 

[profesormental]

Greetings.

Well, the answer depends on what pressure testing means and for what.

Pressure testing for sporting purposes is different than testing for self defense skills. Drilling certain techniques and then using scenarios based on common attacks to simulate self defense situations and analyzing the results can be useful.

We do both at our school, and we have drills that have proven very effective at preparing our students for actual fights and encounters with a very high degree of success and execution.

If interested in our drills it would be better to focus on specific scenarios to narrow the discussion.

Hope that helps.

Juan Mercado

 

[WingChunIan]

There are a number of ways to pressure test and their suitability depends upon the needs / aims of the individual student. I use padding up and going for it against realistic attacks and resisting opponents, taking the exercises outside of the training hall, introducing the element of surprise, getting the student to perform in front of the whole class as the centre of attention (with or without the other elements) and fatigue drills (physical and mental) as ways of pressure testing. Different methods work better with different individuals, the main thing for me is to induce an adrenal response and present a realistic target / threat.

 

[hunt1]

Pressure testing against strangers is Huge! I do not think it is even possible for anyone to truly understand the depth of wing chun or how to use their wing chun unless they test in sparring against strangers. Yip Man was a big believer in this and told his students the only way to know if he is lying to them is if they go out and fight with wing chun. Not everyone wants or needs to go this route but if you have it in you do it. No one can teach you how to fight if they haven't done this. You can not teach someone to do something if you have never done it yourself. I may have gone a bit overboard but it paid huge dividends. I ran ad's in every major newspaper in Chicago looking for sparring partners. I went into every boxing gym and martial arts school posting on the boards or asking the teachers if any of their students were interested. One of the keys to wing chun is to relax. you will never be able to relax until you can get over the fear that comes when violence is about to erupt. Also the calmness will make it much easier for you to talk/walk out of situations that others would come to blows over. You will get hit. every one gets hit in a fight. You have to learn to deal with it. You need strangers. Playing with your school mates are fine as a starting point but that's all it is. First thing you will learn is their are no blocks in wing chun. Second focus on footwork. If you do it correctly and look for people that have been doing their art about the same time you have been doing wing chun you will have fun. Make sure it is friendly. Stop when things seem to be getting out of hand. When you get hit ask the person what they just did and could they doi it slower so you can see what it is and look for the wing chun answer to it. Do the same for them. Emphasize you both are their to learn not kill each other. It's not a death match. However if you do what I did you will get some that want to make it a death match. That's the scary time. if you remember it's not about winning but learning how to use your wing chun you will learn an incredible amount.

 

[WingChunIan]

Yip man wasn't a believer in sparring - he encouraged his students to fight, there is a big big difference between fighting and sparring and fighting is illegal in most societies today.
If you go into MMA, MT or boxing gyms around here you will never get started if you stop every time "things get out of hand" and I disagree massively that you can't teach someone to fight if you've never gone out looking for fights. Firstly there are plenty of other ways to get far more real experience even if unintentional and secondly some of the best boxing coaches in the world were not fighters themselves
I don't disagree that sparring with other disciplines can be useful but unless you want to enter competition its not the be all and end all. If you want to experience real fighting a door job is far more useful.