Realistic Training !!

[shinbushi]

I don't think you have contacted me yet. David -- did he contact you?

-DW

Not that I know of. I have gotten a few inquiries this week and I don't know Ronin's real name

 

[Ronnin]

Okay well I feel randori is a VERY importiant part of training. Mostly the reaction speed one needs in a real situation. You just never know how you're going to react 'till you HAVE to. I just don't think there's another way to train in that aspect. Or at least I don't know any other way.

 

[Don Roley]

Okay well I feel randori is a VERY importiant part of training. Mostly the reaction speed one needs in a real situation. You just never know how you're going to react 'till you HAVE to. I just don't think there's another way to train in that aspect. Or at least I don't know any other way.

But of course, if you do not have good habits by the time you do randori you will only build those habits into you. And after only a couple of years, I kind of think that maybe you do not have the basics down. I have seen people with several times your experience down that have bad basics. Some teachers only teach the basics without randori because they may never have gotten to the point where they could do randori in their training.

So, you might want to ask why you have not been shown randori yet. Or if there is another method to do the same thing. Personally, I am a fan of Peytonn Quinn's type of stuff rather than sparring. It is very close to some of the stuff I have done in Japan, but the stuff I do here would be very difficult to pull off in America with all the silly laws and ads on daytime TV for lawyers asking you to sue someone with them.

PS- even though you did not sign your comment in my rep box, I can tell who it came from. You might want to work on your grammer.

 

[makoto-dojo]

Okay well I feel randori is a VERY importiant part of training. Mostly the reaction speed one needs in a real situation. You just never know how you're going to react 'till you HAVE to. I just don't think there's another way to train in that aspect. Or at least I don't know any other way.

Hello,

you may or may not enjoy this thread.
http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35690

Regards,

 

[Cryozombie]

But of course, if you do not have good habits by the time you do randori you will only build those habits into you.

I'm gonna disagree for a moment Don, and I could be way off... but...

Ive only been back in training since 2003... not long at all. Even tho I came back in at 8th kyu (where I left off) it had been so long since I trained that I considered myself as having started from the beginning again. That said, I do Randori... but instead of building bad habits with it, I use it to determine what bad habits I have been developing and work to overcome them.

Of course the only way I can do this is under the supervision of my instructor, who helps me see the mistakes that I often don't have the eyes for yet... So I think... you don't have to be perfect before you do randori, but you have to approach it as a learning tool, with other eyes to help you. I don't think a 2 guy "Sparring" session is a good idea, because with both parties involved, no one is observing. When we do Randori, everyone participates, watching and giving feedback as is appropriate.

I dunno... just my 2 cents on Randori.

 

[Ronnin]

But of course, if you do not have good habits by the time you do randori you will only build those habits into you. And after only a couple of years, I kind of think that maybe you do not have the basics down. I have seen people with several times your experience down that have bad basics. Some teachers only teach the basics without randori because they may never have gotten to the point where they could do randori in their training.

So, you might want to ask why you have not been shown randori yet. Or if there is another method to do the same thing. Personally, I am a fan of Peytonn Quinn's type of stuff rather than sparring. It is very close to some of the stuff I have done in Japan, but the stuff I do here would be very difficult to pull off in America with all the silly laws and ads on daytime TV for lawyers asking you to sue someone with them.

PS- even though you did not sign your comment in my rep box, I can tell who it came from. You might want to work on your grammer.

I didn't sign anything in your box. But it looks like someone else has thoughts about you. Also I'm not at my dojo anymore, I was sick of the politics. That's is why I posted this, to find out if the rest of the Bujinkan was this way. Looks like most dojo's do some form of randori. So that's good news.

 

[Don Roley]

I'm gonna disagree for a moment Don, and I could be way off... but...

Ive only been back in training since 2003... not long at all. Even tho I came back in at 8th kyu (where I left off) it had been so long since I trained that I considered myself as having started from the beginning again. That said, I do Randori... but instead of building bad habits with it, I use it to determine what bad habits I have been developing and work to overcome them.

Of course the only way I can do this is under the supervision of my instructor, who helps me see the mistakes that I often don't have the eyes for yet... So I think... you don't have to be perfect before you do randori, but you have to approach it as a learning tool, with other eyes to help you.

Ok, I can agree with that. I have used that as well. (Quinn always has a session afterwards to deal with the bad habits.) I was kind of thinking of just two guys going at things in their back yard when I was talking about the problems.

 

[Bigshadow]

You might want to work on your grammer.

Psssst... Don... it is grammar. :uhyeah:

 

[Bigshadow]

I don't think a 2 guy "Sparring" session is a good idea, because with both parties involved, no one is observing. When we do Randori, everyone participates, watching and giving feedback as is appropriate.

Not only that, it often dissolves into competition and sometimes it isn't immediately clear to the participants of the randori, but is often clear to the instructor.

 

[Bigshadow]

That's is why I posted this, to find out if the rest of the Bujinkan was this way. Looks like most dojo's do some form of randori. So that's good news.

We do randori, but it makes up only a smaller part of training, probably 3 to 5 percent of our overall training. I believe too much randori can inhibit progress or create bad habits quicker.

 

[exile]

Personally, I am a fan of Peytonn Quinn's type of stuff rather than sparring. It is very close to some of the stuff I have done in Japan, but the stuff I do here would be very difficult to pull off in America with all the silly laws and ads on daytime TV for lawyers asking you to sue someone with them.

It looks to me as if the Japanese tactical unit police guys shown training in that `Police Shotokan' video we got a link to at the end of last year train in that ultra-realistic manner you're referring to. The kind of stuff that Quinn, Geoff Thompson, Iain Abernethy and others teach—guys who come from traditional arts and have demonstrated how to apply them flexibly in real combat under very unpleasant conditions—seems to me to be one of the biggest changes ever in traditional MA practice in the Western world. The reason it's not more common yet is probably because it's much scarier than ordinary sparring (apart from the lawsuit-happy cultural attitude problem). But you get what you pay for...

 

[Seattletcj]

Not only that, it often dissolves into competition and sometimes it isn't immediately clear to the participants of the randori, but is often clear to the instructor.

This assumes that competition is a bad thing.

 

[Bigshadow]

This assumes that competition is a bad thing.

Competition is not the lesson.

 

[DWeidman]

Not only that, it often dissolves into competition and sometimes it isn't immediately clear to the participants of the randori, but is often clear to the instructor.

Randori is like anything else -- there are good ways to do it and bad ways.

Randori/alive training just tends to shatter illusions. Some people want that... some people don't.

My .02.

-DW

 

[Bigshadow]

Randori is like anything else -- there are good ways to do it and bad ways.

Randori/alive training just tends to shatter illusions. Some people want that... some people don't.

My .02.

-DW

I agree.

 

[makoto-dojo]

Randori is like anything else -- there are good ways to do it and bad ways.

Randori/alive training just tends to shatter illusions. Some people want that... some people don't.

My .02.

-DW

Daniel hits the nail on the head! There is something much deeper going on here (the topic of randori etc) than what first may be seen. When people enter into a system for the first time, why do they join?

They join because they can agree with what is being presented, something about what is being shown, makes them feel better, more secure...

When you go looking for a style or school, you are looking for specific things, you have expectations, you join the school that most closely meets those expectations.

Some months or years in, you learn how to tow the party line and within that environment you move up the pecking order (whatever form it may take ALL schools have them) This further gives you the illusion of the original security (in terms of satisfiying your original needs) becoming more solid.

randori breaks down these illusions, and you are left with just YOU. Not your teachers, your ideas, your systems, but just you right here, right now. In other words what you had BEFORE you joined a "system"...

It is the first wake up call that you and only you are respoinsible for yourself. No one can save you, not your system, rank, teacher, lineage, not how many times you have been to Japan, not how well you can quote your Kancho.

Just you...

Understand that this is true for all systems, the toughest MMA people who spar all day are also in an illusion because some of them think what they do is "reality". But, that reality is different than a prision gang shanking you. Or being over in Iraq, or having to protect your wife and kids as well as yourself etc...

We all fall into traps of self created illusion, and we also get each others backs, You buy into my B.S. and I will buy into yours. We will gang up on those who challenge our stance.

Most everyone has been or is guilty of this.

I personally feel at the deepest level martial arts are about SELF discovery.

Which is a scary thing...

Sincerely,

 

[Ronnin]

I think the most importiant part of randori isn't necessarily the technique, but to get someone to think quickly. To react. To train the mind. Train the mind, and the body will follow once the mind calms down. That's what I use it for.

 

[Bigshadow]

Randori can be a very humbling (and I have had my share of humbling moments) part of training. I always come away from it with things to work on. Fortunately, not always the same things...

 

[Ronnin]

Daniel hits the nail on the head! There is something much deeper going on here (the topic of randori etc) than what first may be seen. When people enter into a system for the first time, why do they join?

They join because they can agree with what is being presented, something about what is being shown, makes them feel better, more secure...

When you go looking for a style or school, you are looking for specific things, you have expectations, you join the school that most closely meets those expectations.

Some months or years in, you learn how to tow the party line and within that environment you move up the pecking order (whatever form it may take ALL schools have them) This further gives you the illusion of the original security (in terms of satisfiying your original needs) becoming more solid.

randori breaks down these illusions, and you are left with just YOU. Not your teachers, your ideas, your systems, but just you right here, right now. In other words what you had BEFORE you joined a "system"...

It is the first wake up call that you and only you are respoinsible for yourself. No one can save you, not your system, rank, teacher, lineage, not how many times you have been to Japan, not how well you can quote your Kancho.

Just you...

Understand that this is true for all systems, the toughest MMA people who spar all day are also in an illusion because some of them think what they do is "reality". But, that reality is different than a prision gang shanking you. Or being over in Iraq, or having to protect your wife and kids as well as yourself etc...

We all fall into traps of self created illusion, and we also get each others backs, You buy into my B.S. and I will buy into yours. We will gang up on those who challenge our stance.

Most everyone has been or is guilty of this.

I personally feel at the deepest level martial arts are about SELF discovery.

Which is a scary thing...

Sincerely,

Mr. Ray
I think you said it perfectly, and I can't even say anything else to add onto because it's perfectly complete. Thanks.

 

[meta_aesthete]

randori breaks down these illusions, and you are left with just YOU. Not your teachers, your ideas, your systems, but just you right here, right now. In other words what you had BEFORE you joined a "system"...

* * *

It is the first wake up call that you and only you are respoinsible for yourself. No one can save you, not your system, rank, teacher, lineage, not how many times you have been to Japan, not how well you can quote your Kancho.

I've been watching this thread for a while now, and that's pure gold. I've been doing BBT on and off for a few months, but it was after my first randori experience that my assumptions about the art, my teacher, and my practice got seriously shaken.

Shaken enough, regrettably, to project my newfound insecurities onto the art. I started looking at other dojos, drifted sporadically in and out of classes (still paying for full membership, though, which is funny). Essentially wasting lots of time and money trying to find a reason for me to "blame" my insecurity on BBT -- it must be the antiquated methods, or the kata forms, or this or that.

But no. I trust my instructor, and I've practiced with some senior students who I couldn't touch if I tried. So the techniques are solid. But it took me a while to swallow my pride and admit that my lack of preparation was A) nobody's fault but my own, and B) a natural part of learning to become prepared.

Anyway. I just joined the forum, partly to find some answers and compare notes, partly because it seems fun, and partly because I find being in a community to be motivating.

But you definitely just hit upon something there, and I very much appreciate the insight.