Real World Competency?

[Hanshi]

I don't if others have experienced this in dojo/dojang and I trust I'm not alone. It has been apparent to me that too many students, including high ranking black belts, would be, well, helpless if grabbed or otherwise attacked during their day/night at home or outside. I do realize that there are other legitimate reasons that many have for martial arts training. I know some seniors who do it for recreation/exercise and others who simply want to learn an art for their it's own sake. Many of the black belts are very good at their art and deserve their rank in the "art".

A major misconception is that the formal drills and techniques will serve them in the trenches, so to speak. Their kicks and punches, which lack true power, are assumed to useful out in the world. I've noticed quite a few students practice almost nothing but high kicks, turning kicks and powerless hand techniques. If they had actually developed true power then maybe, just maybe, they might work. I do some teaching and limited training at a dojang I really like and am fast friends with the grandmaster, students and instructors. But the fault is NOT what they are taught but the way they practice. I see poor technique, limp wrist-ed hand work and no "snap" in anything. I've yet to hear a real KIAI/KIHAP and only hear a "puff" from the mouth as if they are blowing out candles. You just can't beg or cajole a correct one from them. Some few, very few, in the evening classes know how to create a bit of power (usually a few adult men) and that's it. It's just too awfully difficult to teach it and have them actually practice it that way. In the noon class, the best of the bunch is a mother who brings her three kids; she does try to do it right.

I am just a disabled senior but have been training nearly 60 years and had my own school prior to moving from my native Georgia. So I'd like to hear what opinions anyone cares to offer. Thanks.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I am just a disabled senior but have been training nearly 60 years and had my own school prior to moving from my native Georgia. So I'd like to hear what opinions anyone cares to offer. Thanks.

Do you have a question here, or are you just venting?

 

[Headhunter]

You have no idea what someone can do under pressure training is totally different to real life. You may look great in training and can hit bags really hard look real sharp drilling but will freeze in real situations.

Also frankly who cares what others can do. Focus on yourself not others let them do what they want especially if it's not your school

 

[RTKDCMB]

Maybe you should consider changing schools if this one is not up to your standards?

 

[Earl Weiss]

....... But the fault is NOT what they are taught but the way they practice. .

They may have been taught correctly - However, they did not learn correctly. More an different lessons need to be implemented to stress the importance of developing proper technique AND practice with intensity.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't if others have experienced this in dojo/dojang and I trust I'm not alone. It has been apparent to me that too many students, including high ranking black belts, would be, well, helpless if grabbed or otherwise attacked during their day/night at home or outside. I do realize that there are other legitimate reasons that many have for martial arts training. I know some seniors who do it for recreation/exercise and others who simply want to learn an art for their it's own sake. Many of the black belts are very good at their art and deserve their rank in the "art".

A major misconception is that the formal drills and techniques will serve them in the trenches, so to speak. Their kicks and punches, which lack true power, are assumed to useful out in the world. I've noticed quite a few students practice almost nothing but high kicks, turning kicks and powerless hand techniques. If they had actually developed true power then maybe, just maybe, they might work. I do some teaching and limited training at a dojang I really like and am fast friends with the grandmaster, students and instructors. But the fault is NOT what they are taught but the way they practice. I see poor technique, limp wrist-ed hand work and no "snap" in anything. I've yet to hear a real KIAI/KIHAP and only hear a "puff" from the mouth as if they are blowing out candles. You just can't beg or cajole a correct one from them. Some few, very few, in the evening classes know how to create a bit of power (usually a few adult men) and that's it. It's just too awfully difficult to teach it and have them actually practice it that way. In the noon class, the best of the bunch is a mother who brings her three kids; she does try to do it right.

I am just a disabled senior but have been training nearly 60 years and had my own school prior to moving from my native Georgia. So I'd like to hear what opinions anyone cares to offer. Thanks.

Speaking from outside the art of TKD, I can say this is an issue elsewhere, as well. It's an issue that occurs when there's not enough power-work (either full-contact or heavy bag), and not enough resistance (someone actually opposing you in a realistic manner, with some amount of force).

 

[marques]

It has been apparent to me that too many students, including high ranking black belts, would be, well, helpless if grabbed or otherwise attacked during their day/night at home or outside. I do realize that there are other legitimate reasons that many have for martial arts training. I know some seniors who do it for recreation/exercise and others who simply want to learn an art for their it's own sake. Many of the black belts are very good at their art and deserve their rank in the "art".

A major misconception is that the formal drills and techniques will serve them in the trenches, so to speak. Their kicks and punches, which lack true power, are assumed to useful out in the world.

But the fault is NOT what they are taught but the way they practice. I see poor technique, limp wrist-ed hand work and no "snap" in anything.

Most of the time these days, martial arts are not about fighting. They are about fitness, status (within a group at least) and sort of alternative nursery.

Fitness is often associated with martial arts, when it should be about saving energy and about being efficient. Who goes to war burning fuel just because they have too much? Last days I have checked job offers for martial arts instructors and the main skill was dealing with children, martial arts training was not always mandatory (but just an advantage!!).

Many people is happy with wearing a black belt and performing staged movements. Others go for combat sport, so they get used to un-staged attacks. But much ground is miss8ng in between these two major options.

I have tried dozens of schools and I have found the same sloppy techniques, high rank people giving the same challenge as the lower ranks of that same school... and I will stop complaining here beacause...

Reasons for that: business. The offer should match demand. Also, perhaps many things were lost in time, lost in translation. I still see great principles in the traditional or ineffective (imho) styles, but they just fail completely the application, due to bad training method, I think.

Real world competency? Ring, cage or dojo competency perhaps. But more than that... hard for many reasons.

 

[Buka]

I don't if others have experienced this in dojo/dojang and I trust I'm not alone. It has been apparent to me that too many students, including high ranking black belts, would be, well, helpless if grabbed or otherwise attacked during their day/night at home or outside. I do realize that there are other legitimate reasons that many have for martial arts training. I know some seniors who do it for recreation/exercise and others who simply want to learn an art for their it's own sake. Many of the black belts are very good at their art and deserve their rank in the "art".

A major misconception is that the formal drills and techniques will serve them in the trenches, so to speak. Their kicks and punches, which lack true power, are assumed to useful out in the world. I've noticed quite a few students practice almost nothing but high kicks, turning kicks and powerless hand techniques. If they had actually developed true power then maybe, just maybe, they might work. I do some teaching and limited training at a dojang I really like and am fast friends with the grandmaster, students and instructors. But the fault is NOT what they are taught but the way they practice. I see poor technique, limp wrist-ed hand work and no "snap" in anything. I've yet to hear a real KIAI/KIHAP and only hear a "puff" from the mouth as if they are blowing out candles. You just can't beg or cajole a correct one from them. Some few, very few, in the evening classes know how to create a bit of power (usually a few adult men) and that's it. It's just too awfully difficult to teach it and have them actually practice it that way. In the noon class, the best of the bunch is a mother who brings her three kids; she does try to do it right.

I am just a disabled senior but have been training nearly 60 years and had my own school prior to moving from my native Georgia. So I'd like to hear what opinions anyone cares to offer. Thanks.

Besides the obvious in what we call McDojos, I have a theory.

I think a lot of folks who have never trained in the Arts believe subconsciously that self defense, or fighting, which I have always lumped together, is a matter of learning moves. I believe they have the conception that memorizing Martial moves for a couple years automatically makes them a fighter, or at the very least, proficient in the use of those moves in self defense.

Then said people go into Martial Arts. And don't learn any differently in some dojos.

Therein lies the rub.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

What does a little loud kiai have to do with real world competency?

 

[drop bear]

Throw the gloves on them and get them to bang for a couple of minutes. Use that laboratory testing to temper their drills.

If limp wristed punching doesn't work they will find out. If kiai's are important they will find that out too.

Objectively look at the results. Maybe head kicks can be useful. You never know.

 

[marques]

If limp wristed punching doesn't work they will find out. If kiai's are important they will find that out too.

This is the way I like to train. I was so many times forbidden to apply useful things just because they were out of the programme or rules and it was to be replaced by shitty moves...

So when I train myself or someone else I like to give room for experimentation and no-to-low technical restrictions. So everyone can start from the skill they already have (natural or learned), rather than going back to the beginning.

I don’t see how it can work in conservative styles but for MMA or self-defence it is the ideal, imho.

 

[mrt2]

I don't if others have experienced this in dojo/dojang and I trust I'm not alone. It has been apparent to me that too many students, including high ranking black belts, would be, well, helpless if grabbed or otherwise attacked during their day/night at home or outside. I do realize that there are other legitimate reasons that many have for martial arts training. I know some seniors who do it for recreation/exercise and others who simply want to learn an art for their it's own sake. Many of the black belts are very good at their art and deserve their rank in the "art".

I am just a disabled senior but have been training nearly 60 years and had my own school prior to moving from my native Georgia. So I'd like to hear what opinions anyone cares to offer. Thanks.

You might be right. While many traditional MA advertise self defense in their materials, the focus on more traditional methods of training might leave many unprepared for a real world situation. But I can't say this is all that different from back in the day except for one thing. I suspect a significant number of people who wanted to hone their fighting skills, wh might have gone to TKD, or Karate back in the day are more drawn to MMA, or BJJ, leaving TKD more a style popular with people looking to practice MA for its own sake, for personal improvement, or for general fitness, with self defense as a distant third or fourth place. Those who simply want to fight probably go for styles of MA that are more combat oriented from the start, and simply don't bother with forms, one steps, and other traditional methods of teaching. From what I recall back in the day, not everyone who took up traditional MA did so to learn to fight, but a minority did. It was maybe 1 in 3, or maybe 1 in 4 new students. Today, with the number of children dwarfing adults in TKD, the number of people doing it to learn how to fight is maybe 1 in 10, or even fewer. And even among those, I suspect when they see how little training as a beginner they get actually learning how to fight, they likely leave for a more combat oriented style.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

What does a little loud kiai have to do with real world competency?

I didn't address this in my first reply, but IMO...nothing. I've trained (most of my training) with a strong kiai on every strike and fall. It seems to help from a training standpoint, getting the breath used well, increasing intensity, etc. But I taught for more than a year in a room with a meeting room next-door. I was never sure when a meeting would be in there, and the wall between was flimsy (retractable), so I didn't teach audible kiai use at all there. I just focused on the breathing. I didn't see any issue with it. When I go back to my old school, I find I don't kiai as much nor as loudly as I used to. Doesn't seem to matter.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I didn't address this in my first reply, but IMO...nothing. I've trained (most of my training) with a strong kiai on every strike and fall. It seems to help from a training standpoint, getting the breath used well, increasing intensity, etc. But I taught for more than a year in a room with a meeting room next-door. I was never sure when a meeting would be in there, and the wall between was flimsy (retractable), so I didn't teach audible kiai use at all there. I just focused on the breathing. I didn't see any issue with it. When I go back to my old school, I find I don't kiai as much nor as loudly as I used to. Doesn't seem to matter.

Agreed. Watch professional fighters - the closest any of them come to using a kiai is a "puff" from the mouth as if they are blowing out candles, as the OP puts it*. Looking at other professionals who deal with violence on the job - LEOs, bouncers, etc, I don't see loud kiais.

The only people I do see using loud kiais tend to be competitors on forms or point sparring, who use the sound to impress the judges.

*(I'm speaking of during an actual fight. I do come across the occasional fighter who will let out a loud shout while working the pads or heavy bag.)

 

[CB Jones]

Looking at other professionals who deal with violence on the job - LEOs,

LEO kiai = "Stop resisting"

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Agreed. Watch professional fighters - the closest any of them come to using a kiai is a "puff" from the mouth as if they are blowing out candles, as the OP puts it*. Looking at other professionals who deal with violence on the job - LEOs, bouncers, etc, I don't see loud kiais.

The only people I do see using loud kiais tend to be competitors on forms or point sparring, who use the sound to impress the judges.

*(I'm speaking of during an actual fight. I do come across the occasional fighter who will let out a loud shout while working the pads or heavy bag.)

And in Judo, we were first taught to use the kiai when falling, then taught NOT to use it (apparently, at the time, judges were awarding more points when they heard kiai).

 

[Flying Crane]

Agreed. Watch professional fighters - the closest any of them come to using a kiai is a "puff" from the mouth as if they are blowing out candles, as the OP puts it*. Looking at other professionals who deal with violence on the job - LEOs, bouncers, etc, I don't see loud kiais.

The only people I do see using loud kiais tend to be competitors on forms or point sparring, who use the sound to impress the judges.

*(I'm speaking of during an actual fight. I do come across the occasional fighter who will let out a loud shout while working the pads or heavy bag.)

People in the Chinese methods tend to not use an audible kiai at all. In fact my Sifu has said to not deliberately connect the exhale with any strike. Instead, just breathe normally as you do whatever.

The reasoning is that the strike ought to be connected to good body mechanics. If you deliberately match your exhales to the strike then it creates two problems: first, it creates an artificial breathing pattern, which can make you winded more quickly (as can be experienced if you do a lengthy form/kata and compare the two methods).

Second, that deliberate exhale tends to get matched with a more deliberate “muscling” or snap of the technique, which we feel undermines the overall good body mechanics. If you muscle or snap a punch, then you have effectively separated the arm and shoulder from the full-body mechanics. At that point, you are driving the punch with only the strength of the arm and shoulder and you are no longer using the power of the full body.

The thing is, even if you had good full body connection right up until that snap, then at that instant you just threw it all away. You just undermined what was a better technique, and turned it into something less good. All because of a kiai.

At least insofar as our methods are concerned.

 

[wab25]

Agreed. Watch professional fighters - the closest any of them come to using a kiai is a "puff" from the mouth as if they are blowing out candles, as the OP puts it*. Looking at other professionals who deal with violence on the job - LEOs, bouncers, etc, I don't see loud kiais.

The only people I do see using loud kiais tend to be competitors on forms or point sparring, who use the sound to impress the judges.

*(I'm speaking of during an actual fight. I do come across the occasional fighter who will let out a loud shout while working the pads or heavy bag.)

Then there is Devon Alexander:

He is known for his "kiai" or yelling / grunting when punching. He is not the only one in boxing, there are a couple others as well (can't think of their names at the moment). It is relatively rare though... and to the point, I don't think there is any more advantage to the yell verses the "puff" or exhale the other guys use.

(just had to point out the exception...)

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Then there is Devon Alexander:

He is known for his "kiai" or yelling / grunting when punching. He is not the only one in boxing, there are a couple others as well (can't think of their names at the moment). It is relatively rare though... and to the point, I don't think there is any more advantage to the yell verses the "puff" or exhale the other guys use.

(just had to point out the exception...)

The only advantages I can think of are that it might (seems to in class) help some folks overcome their own anxiety and inhibitions, it might startle an attacker (SD situation), and it might attract other people who might intervene (again, SD situation).

 

[Buka]

We used to use loud kiais all the time. But not in fighting/sparring, we used them when doing a zillion push ups, pulls ups etc. As one of my students said -

"The yelling sounds you're hearing, when translated to English, are Holy F'n S, Jesus F'n C, and Nooooo!"