Reading Parker's Infinite Insights

[Doc]

Well Doc, you have stimulated many questions. I anticipate my instructor e-mailing me to "call him" after he gets the e-mail of questions I just fired off to him. Lol

I beg your pardon. It wasn’t me.
I have no idea what you’re talking about. :idunno:

What is the difference between Kenpo never changing, Kenpo tayloring, or a watered down version of Kenpo due to commercializing?

An interesting question to be sure, but what you are really doing here is talking about a single concept, not three.

Let’s start with the “watered down” commercial Kenpo comment. Personally I do not see this as “watered down.” The fact that there are advanced physical principles and concepts not contained therein do not make it “watered down.”

If you had a functional intact older automobile that got you from place to place, would it be considered “watered down” if someone else also had a similar but newer vehicle with satellite FM/AM radio, CD changer, power seats, air, etc. that you don’t have? They both serve their intended purpose.

Now there are some, (and I’ve seen them) who actually have “watered down” the concept because of a lack of knowledge and skill, but the concept is an entity unto itself. It is designed to do one simple thing, and that it can do reasonably well, predicated on the teacher.

Because it is all conceptually driven, it relies heavily on the skills, knowledge, and teaching ability of the head instructor and those under him/her to interpret the many concepts and make them viable for the student. Than, in turn the student can do the same for him/her self. It is only as good or bad as it’s interpreter. It is designed to do just that, and although the design itself limits the inclusion of certain things, it is not “watered down.” It simply is what it is. Only it’s many, many interpreters make it “good or bad.” Parker created it to do exactly what it does.

As far as “tailoring,” that is a concept that is a part of the commercial design. It is what allows students and teachers alike to “interpret” the concepts. Without “tailoring,” there is no commercial kenpo. Ed Parker therefore promoted and encouraged “tailoring,” and it is a part of his genius.

It is what attracted other accomplished martial artists from other styles to him. This was an innovative feature that very much benefited the experienced that were accustomed to the common single rigidity of most other arts. This “tailoring” on the positive side, allowed the necessary flexibility to teach a geographically diverse conceptual art that really had only one expert. On the negative side of the ledger, it tended to benefit the physically adept and experienced, and left much to be desired for less capable teachers and their beginner students.

The “never changing kenpo” is a bit more interesting. You will hear some state they choose to not change anything, “out of respect for Mr. Parker.” This seems flawed to me for several reasons. First the material is all conceptual anyway and interpreted by them, so what they are really saying is, they don’t want to change their personal interpretation or their understanding of the material. That seems flawed to me, especially since Ed Parker said specifically many times (including in Infinite Insights), not to do that. So in “respecting” Ed Parker, they choose to “disrespect” his wishes.

What I think is really happening is some are not interested in the growth of their students or additional knowledge even for themselves. They “sit on their belts” under the guise of “respecting” Ed Parker. It’s just easier than thinking, working, and improving as a teacher.

I can’t think of anything in our society that doesn’t improve and change. Everything evolves whether we like it or not. Anything that doesn’t, we call old and/or obsolete. You know what gets old and obsolete first? Conceptual ideas. Commercial Kenpo is completely conceptual. Although the business model itself will probably always be viable to a certain extent, the methodology must keep up with its ever-changing customer base, as any business must.

Do you see any area where presently Kenpo is evolving in a positive way, being taken to a higher level or possibly improving?

What Kenpo? Yours? Somebody else’s perhaps? I can't say it enough. The business model of Kenpo is not a single entity and hasn’t been ever since Parker split off the proliferation conceptual version. It has never been, nor will it ever be. Because it is designed to be interpreted, who’s to say whose is better or improving? As long as students and teachers get what they want from it, than they and Parker have done their job.

What direction would you like to see Kenpo go and what steps would take Kenpo there?

For the business model there is not much hope to get it beyond what it is. Ed Parker knew that, and it is also why he never stopped working on the art for himself. All of the things that are flawed and negative about commercial kenpo are the things that Parker designed in it to allow it to exist. Unfortunately, the numbers of teachers that have the ability to overcome those flaws are too few.

That is why I am not in the business of kenpo. It allows me to allow only a certain quality of committed student to become a part of our student body. It allows me to teach the strict basics and methodologies necessary to build skills for advanced applications. But then again, that’s what everybody says.

 

[Doc]

It’s OK to just say “old.”

LOL...I guess I neglected to mention that I thought I'd heard somewhere that you were about two years old when you first started learning Kenpo...uhhh...something about a child prodigy.

Uhhhh, yeah! That’s right a prodigy. Yeah, that’s the ticket. Baby I was!

No it is very understandable, but just a thought, as with any business there can sometimes exist a conflict of interest between what's best for the family and what's best for the clients of the business.

Whereas that is true, Ed Parker delivered what he said he would. The fact that some have taken to thinking it is more than they should is another story. Ed Parker in speaking about his many schools said, “Just because the red show don’t mean you know.” He knew ranking was out of control and was mostly for business purposes. Still a commercial rank is just that; a commercial rank.

Interesting...Joe Lewis did appear to have a lot of respect for Ed Parker in spite of his affiliation with the Tracy’s.

Joe was always his own man. He just got a paycheck from the Tracy’s.

I definitely agree that people feel this way about some Kenpo techniques. Some of the techniques really do not seem to be practical, especially for everyone to utilize in a fight, and I have questioned a few myself and have seen others question them as well. I think the application of a particular technique in the "real world" depends on many variables including state of mind at the moment, amount of prior practice, proper tailoring, the application of elements of focus, ability to use proper alignment, ability to use torque and gravitational marriage and characteristics of body type (size, height, weight, speed, agility, flexibility and strength) and I'm sure lots of things I've yet to fully understand. I can tell you in real life I will never try the takedown in Falling Falcon on a really big guy, but I don't think it is impractical for a big guy to use the takedown in that technique. I think it is really ok, actually important to be aware of what may or may not work for you individually. This is where I think using the sd techniques as ideas or as part of the "alphabet of motion" that Ed Parker discusses in Infinite Insights becomes most important.

If you say so.

This is an enlightened approach. This is very appealing to me on many levels!

… works for me

This is an excellent idea. We do have a police officer who trains with us...I'll have to pick his brain.

Good idea.

This is interesting. I'd like to know more about your ideas on this. Have you published anything on this? If not, do you think at another time you could share some of these ideas? Perhaps in a different thread...

Yes but without a background in strict physical basics, it would be difficult to grasp.

Thanks Doc - it's a good prescription. Maybe there is a magician with the potential to be developed in us all. Maybe for some it only comes to look like magic through a lifetime of personal self discovery as a Martial Artist. At any rate, it's something for us all to try and aspire to.

Amen – Go Lakers!!!!!!

 

[mj-hi-yah]

Go Lakers!!!!!!

The Lakers??? Ok Doc, now we have something to debate!!! :wink1:

 

[teej]

Interesting perspectives, however the Infinite Insights do not represent Ed Parker's "...original intentions ... for the art ..." unless you're speaking only of his later commercial art. His first book, "Secrets of Chinese "Karate" more closely represents his original intentions once he came to the mainland. Circumstances caused him to create an alternate and simultaneously evolving art he began to represent in his second book, "Kenpo Karate." Many of the important things in this book too were also stripped away when he embraced the "motion" only concept for commercial dissemination. Perhaps you might go back a bit further and examine those historical published works as well so that you might form a broader opinion.

This statement stimulated my thought process. As you pointed out, I never gave much thought to the original Kenpo, or more spicifically, Ed Parkers "original intentions". I for one am one of the ones that thought I was learning and teaching what the art had evolved into as Mr. Parker wanted it to.

I think I now have a better understanding of the "commercial" impact to the art. Please correct me to help me better understand what you mean. This is what I have picked up thus far from your comments. [i may have interpretated some of your views incorrectly.]

In the beginning, Ed Parker was able to teach a very effective street fighting art, building a core of tough practitioners from students with previous martial art back grounds and/or street fighting experience. I am sure SGM Parker was able to imploy some very effective training techniques.

To teach the masses and spread Kenpo, Mr. Parker developed the idea of "tayloring" to the individual. A fantastic business idea, but it came with consequences to the art. Individuals without tough backgrounds were now being taught the art in a different way. Instructors were being kicked out that had no street background. Kind of like learning to fly from someone that has never piloted before.

Ranks started to fly out there for commercial reasons. {which is why there are instructors out there wearing high ranking Kenpo black belts and patches, but they don't know the material and/or body mechanics} (heck Doc, at times I step on toes too.)

Here is a question. What is your definition of the "conceptual version"?

How would you suggest to the instructors out there training themselves or instructing to overcome the "flaws" of commercial kenpo? You mentioned training with law enforcement and military individuals. How does your training/instruction differ from the "commercialized" version?

As this thread originated with questions pertaining to the "Infinite Insight" series, what value do volumes 1-5 hold for the version that you teach?

Teej

{thank you for stimulating thought. all of my questions are of a genuine desire for better understanding. please do not take anything I may have said or asked personally. I deeply appreciate and respect your impact and views.}

 

[sumdumguy]

The “never changing kenpo” is a bit more interesting. You will hear some state they choose to not change anything, “out of respect for Mr. Parker.” This seems flawed to me for several reasons. First the material is all conceptual anyway and interpreted by them, so what they are really saying is, they don’t want to change their personal interpretation or their understanding of the material. That seems flawed to me, especially since Ed Parker said specifically many times (including in Infinite Insights), not to do that. So in “respecting” Ed Parker, they choose to “disrespect” his wishes.

What I think is really happening is some are not interested in the growth of their students or additional knowledge even for themselves. They “sit on their belts” under the guise of “respecting” Ed Parker. It’s just easier than thinking, working, and improving as a teacher.

Perfectly Stated Doc, couldn't agree more... Bravo Bravo
:asian:

 

[Doc]

Originally Posted by Doc
Interesting perspectives, however the Infinite Insights do not represent Ed Parker's "...original intentions ... for the art ..." unless you're speaking only of his later commercial art. His first book, "Secrets of Chinese "Karate" more closely represents his original intentions once he came to the mainland. Circumstances caused him to create an alternate and simultaneously evolving art he began to represent in his second book, "Kenpo Karate." Many of the important things in this book too were also stripped away when he embraced the "motion" only concept for commercial dissemination. Perhaps you might go back a bit further and examine those historical published works as well so that you might form a broader opinion.

This statement stimulated my thought process. As you pointed out, I never gave much thought to the original Kenpo, or more spicifically, Ed Parkers "original intentions". I for one am one of the ones that thought I was learning and teaching what the art had evolved into as Mr. Parker wanted it to.

This misunderstanding is common for those who began their training in the commercial art in the seventies or later. Naturally anyone who started then would presume that it is the “only” kenpo or the final product of a Parker kenpo evolution. Of course there are some who “claim” they stated with Parker earlier than they actually did for obvious reasons. There is at least one well-known, now very high ranked student not on the family tree (circa 1981) that only knew Parker for a few years in the eighties. When you look at their rank and the time they actually knew Parker, it is “out of balance” even by the commercial standard of awarding rank. Think of this version of kenpo as a "divergence" from other things he was doing, and not THE definitive kenpo of Ed Parker.

I think I now have a better understanding of the "commercial" impact to the art. Please correct me to help me better understand what you mean. This is what I have picked up thus far from your comments. [i may have interpretated some of your views incorrectly.]

In the beginning, Ed Parker was able to teach a very effective street fighting art, building a core of tough practitioners from students with previous martial art back grounds and/or street fighting experience. I am sure SGM Parker was able to imploy some very effective training techniques.

Very well said. When Parker originally came to the mainland, Kenpo was much more simplistic but much more physical. So much so only “tough guys” participated, and a black belt could be attained in less than a year. Only the very physical would even consider joining one of these classes. He brought with him the island tradition of, “class isn’t over until there is some blood on the mat.” Ladies, and children weren’t allowed. Once the commercial kenpo was launched the business was immediately overwhelmed by children, then followed by the less physical males and finally females. Children so dominated the schools and increased revenue, that Parker started me working on an adjustment in the rank process to include children, the less physical, art transfer students, and even sport ranking to prevent cross contamination of the process.

To teach the masses and spread Kenpo, Mr. Parker developed the idea of "tayloring" to the individual.

Well actually he developed the idea of a “motion-based” art first (from watching himself on film in reverse), that allowed students to study simple “motion” and then “tailor” it to their own needs. A brilliant concept that was and still is anomalous in the martial arts. It created a commercial success, but had serious consequences without a real Parker generated hierarchy base. Each teacher and even the student were encouraged to create and define their own base interpretation. Clearly, no real depth can come when the physical base of the art is created by the individual from nebulous concepts, beyond the individual’s own creativity.

Still, it’s a brilliant concept that performed well to its expectations. The problems arise when practitioners assign more to it then it deserves, reaching beyond Mr. Parker’s own expectations based on known limitations by the progenitor. This however is not indigenous to just kenpo. Even today there are disagreements among the Japanese, Indonesian, Chinese, Hawaiian, and Filipino arts with regards to the creation of “competition and commercial” models that will overshadow more sophisticated information in the depth of these arts. Typically the more recent lean more toward commercial and sport applications. Nothing new. Parker just did such a good job, that his commercial art naturally supplanted his personal one. No surprise there. The more people doing it, the less depth in can have. The higher the depth of the information, the less people have an understanding and access. The idea of accepting virtually anyone who comes in the door, regardless of education, age, gender, and physicality capabilities has significance to any art as a whole over time. Additionally the American culture has virtually for various reasons embraced the "sport" of martial arts as a representation of the real arts. It is not nor has it ever been, but the "selling" takes place on more levels than just Ed Parker's kenpo.

A fantastic business idea, but it came with consequences to the art. Individuals without tough backgrounds were now being taught the art in a different way. Instructors were being kicked out that had no street background. Kind of like learning to fly from someone that has never piloted before.

I like that. Very well said. As a side note when I talked to Mr. Parker about the concept, he said that there would be some that would rise to the occasion and be quite good. He told me about a swimming coach at a school in Hawaii that produced nothing but champions. He told me of the many innovative ways he trained his swimmers, but then interjected the coach, …”couldn’t swim.” I said yeah, but those people are rare. But Parker said, “Yes that is true, but they still do exist.”

Ranks started to fly out there for commercial reasons. {which is why there are instructors out there wearing high ranking Kenpo black belts and patches, but they don't know the material and/or body mechanics} (heck Doc, at times I step on toes too.)

Thanks for the back up. I think most people know this but just don’t want to say or admit it. Lower student generated expectations, video black belts, etc. I don’t know what the big deal is, after all Parker said it himself.

Here is a question. What is your definition of the "conceptual version"?

The version based on “infinite motion” with constituent pseudo-science concepts that promotes maximum flexibility for all with obvious limitations. Most have missed the fact that although abstract motion is infinite, human anatomical movement is not with serious limitations. Have you noticed the large number of Kenpo practitioners who are having surgery on various joints? Notably hips, shoulders, and knees that are subject to inappropriate “movements” are quite common. Even guys like Chuck Norris, and Bill Wallace have had double hips replacement surgery from “questionable” body mechanics. Proper striking mechanics are not generally taught in any martial art. Even boxing relies a lot on muscles and mass. Well known kenpo people as well have had multiple shoulder and hip surgeries.

How would you suggest to the instructors out there training themselves or instructing to overcome the "flaws" of commercial kenpo?

I think most of those who earnestly want to are, for the most part already dong it. There are reasons why many are defecting to other disciplines to “fill the holes in their, and their instructors kenpo.” They obviously have taken note of significant deficiencies in their lessons and applications.

Many are gravitating to grappling and sport arts to ratchet up the level of reality. In a grappling venue, sport or otherwise, the reality feedback is immediate. Bad body mechanics are exposed immediately. The limitations here are obvious as well. Sport applications remove “street possibilities” that “break sporting rules” and teach suspect methodologies that are effective under the umbrella of a referees protection if it fails, versus serious injury or death on the street. A “scissors take-down” is a great sport technique, but would you try it in a crowded parking lot of a bar when your life may be on the line?

Still this type of training is better than the majority of the kenpo techniques I’ve seen from many “instructors.” At least they are learning to be really physical. That’s why I admire Bob White so much, (not to slight some others that I don’t know personally. I’ve just known Bob over three decades). In my opinion, he recognized some significant deficiencies in the technique based self defense model, and injected his own personality to create a serious “street sparring” curriculum that has not only proved to be consistently successful in competition, but creates a tough physical and mental “survival” attitude in his students.

His students exemplify the words, “tough hard nosed.” You want to bang with his people? Bring a lunch, and a good attitude cause if you got a “chip,” they’ll knock it off. I might add they are as nice as they are tough, and they are very tough. Bob wouldn’t have it any other way.

Beyond that, I would examine the technique applications and ask the hard questions brought out by realistic training. “Does this really work?” If the answer is “no,” find someone who can make it work for real, or abandon it. Don’t teach the “curriculum” just so you can give a person a belt. Of course you may find out there isn’t much left except the “stomp on his foot, rupture the balls, smash the throat, finger in the eyes, methodology that works with no training at all. Isn’t that what they teach in those one-day no belt self-defense courses? Ask yourself, “Where is the real skill?”

You mentioned training with law enforcement and military individuals. How does your training/instruction differ from the "commercialized" version?

I was taught differently. Everything I learned is based on an understanding of anatomically correct and efficient body mechanic application. A “Psychology of Confrontation” component also examines the offensive goals of an attacker(s) and how to negate them mentally and physically. I WAS NOT taught ‘secret’ information, however I was taught information I was capable of utilizing in a non-business environment, and I was a working uniform police officer, and we were working on a project specifically for public law enforcement personnel that required a significantly more realistic approach not applicable in commercial schools. I simply have continued in the direction Parker was taking me. Also I began my initial study under an instructor that Parker also studied with, and therefore my understanding more closely mirrored some of his own experiences.

As this thread originated with questions pertaining to the "Infinite Insight" series, what value do volumes 1-5 hold for the version that you teach?

They are an interesting historical reference work into the legacy of Ed Parker and of his divergence into martial arts commercialism. They are required reading for my students from that perspective. They are not textbooks, nor are they reference works for the methodology that I teach whose genesis predates what was essentially dated information, (according to Ed Parker) by the time they were published. My own teachings more closely mirrored Mr. Parker’s personal evolution, not his commercial one.

{thank you for stimulating thought. all of my questions are of a genuine desire for better understanding. please do not take anything I may have said or asked personally. I deeply appreciate and respect your impact and views.}

I never felt otherwise sir.

 

[Doc]

Perfectly Stated Doc, couldn't agree more... Bravo Bravo
:asian:

Yeah, but you're biased. :asian:

 

[sumdumguy]

Biased? How or why would you say that? Honestly...... What elements of my intelect make me biased?
:asian:

 

[Doc]

Yeah, but you're biased. :asian:

you have a brain and you are an independent thinker. No "follow the leader."

"No soup for you!"

 

[sumdumguy]

I have joined and taken camp classes with some of those knuckle heads that say that, on the other hand I have had some classes with some who don't follow such idiocracies. I think that the Infinite Insights are a great place for some people to start. However, in time they will either realize that there are holes in the teachings or not. Those who don't continue on with the sam ting and those do, move on. Holding some value (more sentimental than anything) on the II series. I personally like some of the quotes that Mr. Parker had in them... Particularly the ones that tell people to continue to research and understand what he is telling them. Better understanding, I believe take a person to a finite set of rules and principles. Governed more by the laws of nature and physics then concept and theory, since these have no "real" laws applied or that are applicable. Ok, I am rambling sorry.....
artyon:

 

[Doc]

I have joined and taken camp classes with some of those knuckle heads that say that, on the other hand I have had some classes with some who don't follow such idiocracies. I think that the Infinite Insights are a great place for some people to start. However, in time they will either realize that there are holes in the teachings or not. Those who don't continue on with the sam ting and those do, move on. Holding some value (more sentimental than anything) on the II series. I personally like some of the quotes that Mr. Parker had in them... Particularly the ones that tell people to continue to research and understand what he is telling them. Better understanding, I believe take a person to a finite set of rules and principles. Governed more by the laws of nature and physics then concept and theory, since these have no "real" laws applied or that are applicable. Ok, I am rambling sorry.....
artyon:

You know you're reambling to chior right?

fight in holding gotta gooooooo

 

[Goldendragon7]

You know you're rambling to chior right?

Oh brother, are we holding hands now.....
(all together).....

Kum bye ahhhh,

 

[Doc]

Oh brother, are we holding hands now.....
(all together).....

Kum bye ahhhh,

Dennis if you're going to continue with this childish jealousy, we're going to have to break it off. I didn't say anything when you didn't answer your phone Sunday.

 

[Goldendragon7]

Dennis if you're going to continue with this childish jealousy, we're going to have to break it off. I didn't say anything when you didn't answer your phone Sunday.

That was you?! I answered, but you didn't say anything! (or were we in the pool) :idunno:

 

[sumdumguy]

Mr. Conatser lives!!!!! Good one Mr. C. I think holding hands is a bit strong, Doc lost me a couple of posts ago anyway..... Besides you know me a little bit and know that I don't subscribe to ALL the madness of commercial Kenpo. I have read all of Mr. Parker's books at least a few times and still re-read them on occasion. I am currently re-reading "The guide to the Nunchaku". You ever notice how much the nine planes come in to play with Nunchaku?
any whoooo
I can't get away with saying things like Doc does though, so kudos are in order....
:asian:

 

[Goldendragon7]

I have read all of Mr. Parker's books at least a few times and still re-read them on occasion. I am currently re-reading "The guide to the Nunchaku". You ever notice how much the nine planes come in to play with Nunchaku?
:asian:

Yes, I is here........:ultracool

Yep, and the chucks are one of the most difficult of weapons to master (IMHO). The 'Planes' sure add dimension to the study of the weapon (not to mention empty hand stuff), but those trains and automobiles are a hoot!:uhoh:

Sure, anyone can swing them around like Bruce Lee, but to actually master and control them "Kenpo Fashion" is quite another job.

Yes, every time I review the volumes or any of my notes for that matter I learn something new or create another project to research......LOL

:redcaptur

 

[Doc]

That was you?! I answered, but you didn't say anything! (or were we in the pool) :idunno:

You're in the pool on a holiday and I was at work!!!!?????

No justice no peace, no justice no peace!

 

[sumdumguy]

In staying on topic with the Ifinite Insights.
If so many people have read and read these books so much and so thouroghly why are some people not using some of the tools shown and or taught?
Just curious....
:asian:

 

[Goldendragon7]

You're in the pool on a holiday and I was at work!!!!?????
No justice no peace, no justice no peace!

Huh???????........ Wrong.....!!!!!

You were maintaining Justice :mp5:and I was at Peace:wavey:!

:ultracool

 

[Goldendragon7]

If so many people have read and read these books so much and so thouroghly, why are some people not using some of the tools shown and or taught?
Just curious....
:asian:

Damn good question!!
:idunno: