Reading Parker's Infinite Insights

[Michael Billings]

Once again, great info and history from your perspective Doc. Thanks for sharing.

Are you still planning a trip to Houston for Mr. Bugg's? I am looking forward to seeing you if you can make it.

Oss,
-Michael

 

[Doc]

Once again, great info and history from your perspective Doc. Thanks for sharing.

Are you still planning a trip to Houston for Mr. Bugg's? I am looking forward to seeing you if you can make it.

Oss,
-Michael

Looking forward to seeing you as well. We have much to talk about.

 

[Doc]

CAUTION: THE BELOW MAY BE OFFENSIVE TO SOME, BUT IS NOT INTENDED IN ANY WAY TO DEMEAN OR SUGGEST WHAT ANYONE DOES IS INVALID.

Hello again, and let me say that I am sorry for the assumption that I am a sir. I suppose MJ is the reason. MJ stands for Mary Jo. I could be granted a pass into the ladies locker room if desired. I will certainly look to find you in each volume.

My apologies. Most of the ladies usually identify themselves in their posts. Please excuse my making such an assumption.

This is the way it was presented to me by my instructor and I found it to be very curious that Ed Parker would allow such freedom in interpretation. I totally agree with you that by design, intentional or not, this is both innovative and destructive to the art at the same time.

Although essentially he had no choice, the idea of a self-defense based art of practical and functional choices mandated it could not be presented any other way. He took the concept of self defense courses found in many universities and expanded on the theme and added belts. In this format, most do not study long term (semester to semester) and therefore only want reasonable skills as quickly as possible.

Flexibility was inherent in the presentation because students were not studying an “art form” and the individual had to take responsibility for their own actions and personal well being.

Previously most martial activity had been “sold” as an “art form” with strict country of origin cultural rituals and foreign language mandates. This intrigued many Americans who embraced these activities as an art with some vicarious martial benefits.

Ed Parker changed the focus to self-defense and left just enough of the Asian influence to maintain that “mysterious foreign” flavor, to separate it from American boxing and wrestling. He inserted the word “karate” to that end because of the public familiarity with the term. “Learn karate and defend yourself from attack” became the theme and it wasn’t long before most subscribed to this method of “selling” their art.

Originally the Japanese Arts dominated after WW II from our exposure when American Servicemen returned home. These arts were “sport arts” and called as such. Karate-do was a natural extension of the ju-do activity. Those who practiced ju-do were known as “judo players” because of its competition mandates for advancement. The same was true for “karate” practitioners who were also known as “karate-players.” I have found memories of my grandmother asking me if I was “going to play karate today.”

So you see most arts were sold as just that or as a sporting activity. Ed Parker changed all that, and although those activities haven’t changed much, they are now all “sold” as “the ultimate in self-defense.” Good or bad, Ed Parker influenced the industry in that way.

So on one hand he had a positive proliferation effect on the martial arts in America and is known, quite rightly so, as the “Father of American Karate.” The bad news is mass consumption meant reducing it to its lowest common denominator, if it was to be financially successful. But because of it’s inherent flexibility the individual was responsible to make it work. Conceptually the tools were all there, and the student engaged the information at the depth they chose to participate. There were some good things that came of it, but most, at best were mediocre to sorry under mass belt driven business mills.

Ed Parker borrowed and based his business model on an existing dance chain called “Arthur Murray Dance Studios.” This was when “karate schools” first became known as “studios” instead of “dojos.” In selling, terminology was very important. A “studio” was a comfortable term. What the hell is a “dojo?” most would say.

Anyway, Arthur Murray would lure people come into the studios with “5 private lesson” for a flat low fee that was attractive. Most people who didn’t know how to dance would be embarrassed to get in front of a group and show their dance ineptitude, so the idea of initial private lessons cheap was attractive and an effective lure.

Parker would say this is how you brought the “lookey loos” and the mildly curious into the studio to ultimately get them into group classes, by making them feel comfortable. It didn’t hurt that this methodology yielded high returns for the amount of time invested.

The majority who entered the dance studios learned to dance reasonably well enough to satisfy their needs and desires and moved on. They could now dance with their friends without being embarrassed, but few became true really accomplished dancers. However clearly they got their money’s worth. Those who did well and who thought they would like to make a living dancing were offered the opportunity to teach in their own “studio,” once they reached a certain level.

Thus the student became the teacher rather quickly. I think most would agree that a year or two of part time dance lessons hardly qualifies anyone to teach dancing except on the most superficial of levels. Sound familiar? Ed Parker would advertise in the paper, “Karate Instructors Wanted, no experience necessary.” Anything to get people into the studios to sell the art to the American public.

Study a few years and then turn around and now you can teach. It’s called proliferation and an effective business expansion concept, but at best produces and promotes mediocrity. Particularly in a martial art where significant street experience is important, and injury is a distinct possibility upon failure. This is why the student and not the teacher is responsible for how they choose to execute a technique. “I present the concept, and you decide how, when, and even if you use it.”

But Ed Parker also conceded the limitations. He said, “We are an industry feeding upon itself.” And at some point he knew it would collapse upon itself without a true foundation. He knew that was not possible under that existing format. Proliferation took the commercial studio art all over the world, but it had its price.

Imagine someone who graduates from elementary school who suddenly is allowed to teach elementary school. A person who doesn’t know how to fight, with no effective street fight experience, works out for several years and is now a “self-defense” instructor because they passed the course, is now teaching others how to fight. Even at its best, it’s the bleary eyed teaching the blind.

Originally Parker’s proliferation plan worked for one simple reason. He started with men who had “life and street” experience. In most cases the majority of Parker’s students came to him with significant martial arts experience. In fact, very few people were actually taught by Parker from a no experience white belt to black belt. The majority of the well-known names were brown or black belts when they came to Parker. For them the conceptual product worked because they had a significant foundation coupled with street experience to make the ideas more than functional. Parker basically started with a bunch of “tough guys” who could already fight. Parker just made them better. These were the guys that brought their experience to teaching and making the “kenpo studio” material work. However for the most part, these people are no longer taking students from white to black, and no matter how good a student is, without experience there will always be a void.

I was curious as to why he never made video tapes, other than Sophisticated Basics (that I am aware of) to show the techniques, basics, sets and forms to promote consistency.

I was apart of that project along with Ed Parker jr. who did all the real heavy lifting. I was the announcers voice and also briefly in number one demonstrating a few difficult movements he needed. But the answer is a simple one. How, or why would you create videos of a definitive way to do undefined conceptual techniques? Remember he promoted individual flexibility in his commercial art. He was concerned if he committed techniques to video, everyone would attempt to mimic instead of “think.”

It would have been counter-productive as well to the idea of the individual being personally responsible for “sticking fingers in someone’s eyes.” Parker himself didn’t do these things because he didn’t have to, but the business model used soft tissue assaults to the throat, groin, eyes, and neck to insure a level of effectiveness. (I think I just described all of the commercial techniques in one sentence.)

It was this paradigm between innovation and what I considered to be a form of inherent self destruction that sparked my interest in finding out Ed Parker's intent for Kenpo. It just didn't make complete sense to me. It is most curious.

Different interpretations have different intent. Simply, the version that peaked your interest was about proliferation while imparting some level of skill that was satisfactory to the individual student. It was and is a rather shallow concept, that allowed a few brilliant people to do well, but the majority never rose above the level of the concept.

After reading the quote below I began to wonder why Ed Parker would want the base system to be taught identically, yet not have a written curriculum.

He never definitively defined the base business model; therefore there was no definitively written curriculum beyond the conceptual.

That led me to the knowledge of the Accumulative Journal. I was happy to hear this, because it meant to me that he built something that he must have believed was worth preserving in some way.

Well yes and no. He created a “franchise guide” he called the “accumulated journal” for school owners and managers. It contained all of the conceptual information, techniques ideas, etc. available at the time.

Prior to that the written techniques were not available to students. Students were given the “names’ of techniques, which is why they were constructed as they were to help students remember them, with no written material beyond a simple list of requirements.

Ed Parker sold them the Accumulated Journal and mangers/owners taught from the journals to create a loose semblance of material from school to school. Over time students began requesting the written versions of the techniques, so Parker created the “technique manuals. However, the accumulated journals were never intended for everyone to have, and is also the reason why they are rare. They were never produced in large numbers. It also becomes clear why schools never ever did things the same. It was all subject to interpretation, which was what Parker promoted.

I'm wondering why you never really used this. Was it because you knew the material, or because you didn't find it necessary or valuable in your teaching?

In the methodology I was taught it had virtually no value, and was actually a divergence from some of his other more n-depth teaching. Many of the older students to this day resent the “business version” and resisted learning it.

I'm not sure if you know him, but this was written by a man named Kevin Lamkin and is an excerpt from the article Kenpo Never Changes:

I asked Mr. Parker (he preferred to be called 'Ed') why the American Kenpo in his own organization had so much variance between schools. He seemed agitated about this question, yet I went further to inform him that the instructor who had hosted a recent seminar stated that this was because Ed Parker is always changing the system. Before I could complete my sentence, Mr. Parker blew-up and firmly stated,

"Kenpo Never Changes, it Perpetually Refines Itself."

He added, "Very few instructors understand this parable. What it refers to is this; My system should be taught from the base system, The Ideal Phase of each technique. I will be starting a limited franchise of schools next year (1988). Each school will teach, as all should, the techniques, basics and forms identically. What the instructor is charged to do is to "tailor"the technique - after the Ideal Phase is understood. In this way, Kenpo remains the same and is refined perpetually for the student."

Just for the record, Ed Parker never preferred nor asked to be called “Ed” by anyone. There were those who were around in the old days before things became more formal who called him “Ed” and he didn’t correct them, but he didn’t “prefer” it.

When I first met him as a teenager he was Mr. Parker. As I grew and our relationship grew, I called him “Edmund,” (as I do his son) as well as a series of nicknames. “Kahuna,” “Manaloha,” “Grandmaster Flash,” “The Magician of Motion,” “Boss,” and “The Old Man” were some of the many. For me, he fluctuated between being a father figure, big brother, and best friend. I never ever called him “Ed.” He personally confided he didn’t like it, but as far as I know never corrected anyone. He was an informal person who simply introduce himself as, “Ed Parker.” No “grandmaster” or titles. Just Ed Parker.

Reading this led me to believe that Ed Parker actually wanted some consistency in Kenpo to transcend time. If this is the case, and Ed Parker actually wanted Kenpo to always begin with the same base, I was curious how it changed so much.

See the above

If this is truly the case, and there was a consistent curriculum that was intended to be taught identically in it's ideal phase, than one might conclude that the ideal phase at least should have remained the same, but yet I've seen lots of versions of the "same" Kenpo techniques, and not always qualified as tailored versions. This is the reason for my interest in the Accumulative Journal. As an instructor, I just really wanted to see how he, (and as I know now, his collaborators) believed the basics should be presented.

One of the great misconceptions in the motion based business model is the “Three Phases.” People assumed they were to do “Parker’s Ideal Phase.” In fact they were supposed to do “Their Ideal Phase” from Parker’s conceptual teachings, and design techniques that would be personally functional. Parker never ever produced a definitive way to physically perform anything. It was all designed to be interpretive.

The “Web of Knowledge” outlined an order of, and general possible attack considerations. The technique manuals proposed possible very general “ideas” to be interpreted by instructors and students.

The Instructor and/or student was supposed to begin that process by designing an “ideal phase” to extrapolate solutions based on Parker concepts. There never, ever was an “ideal phase” proposed, promoted, or taught by Parker in the motion based business model.

Here are Parker’s written words on the subject taken from his own I.K.K.A Green Belt Technique Manual in the Accumulative Journal.

BEGIN PARKER QUOTE
As you analyze a specific technique, study is best begun by dividing your efforts into phases. Phase I of the analytical process requires that you commence with an ideal or fixed situation.

This means that you are to select a combat situation that has been structured with a prescribed sequence of movements, and use this ideal technique as a basis. In this phase, the term ideal implies that the situation is fixed and that the "what if" questions required in Phase II are not to be included in Phase I.

Using the ideal technique or model situation as a reference point not only refers to the defensive moves you employ, but the anticipated reactions of your opponent as well. Technically then, it is the prescribed reactions of your opponent that completes the ideal technique.

Therefore, the ideal techniques are built around seemingly inflexible and one dimensional assumptions for a good purpose. They provide us with a basis from which we may begin our analytical process, (like a control model in any reliable scientific experiment). Prescribed techniques applied to prescribed reactions are the keys that make a basic technique ideal or fixed.

In Phase I, structuring an ideal technique requires selecting a combat situation that you wish to analyze. Contained within the technique should be fixed moves of defense, offense, and the anticipated reactions that can stem from them.

These, so called ideal or fixed situations when analyzed and formulated properly should effectively take into consideration minor alterations of combat to make phase I significantly able to stand alone.
END PARKER QUOTE

This is an area of massive confusion and a close reading of Mr. Parker’s words should reveal the obvious. He is speaking to instructors and/or students and telling them how to approach the conceptual information and how to create their ideal technique, while utilizing his “ideas” as a starting point. That is why it is so flexible and interpretive. Once YOU create YOUR Ideal Phase and teach or become proficient with it, than you may move to the other phases. The other part of the confusion is the “what if.” It is important to understand, when teachers/students create an “ideal technique model,” students do not, and should not have the luxury of confusing themselves entertaining infinite possibilities of “what ifs” as Mr. Parker stated above.

So-called “what ifs” do not exist in the “ideal phase” process. They should be different techniques with a similar offensive theme. These questions should be answered as you move upward in the levels of your “ideal phase” process. “Broken Ram” answers questions similar to “Charging Ram.” “Captured Twigs” is a variation of the question of “Thrusting Prongs.” “Sword and Hammer” is simply a different reaction timing to “Obscure Wing.”

Thank you for this. This, rather than what I read in the article, makes more sense in explaining the changes in Kenpo. Ironically, while I would like to see a little more common ground in Kenpo, as a certified teacher - the idea of individualization is what most attracts me to Kenpo.

Like most people.

This may be the most interesting exchange of all. Perhaps this is the essence of Martial Arts...the art part of the art - evolving self-expression. If you could presume, and if you feel you can't that is okay, what do you think Ed Parker would think about the way Kenpo has evolved? If that is too difficult to answer (or in addition), what do you think of the way Kenpo has evolved?

I think Mr. Parker’s prediction of the business model came true. A kind reminder please; Kenpo is not a single entity that has or has not evolved. If the business model is your base, than only the individual may speak of their evolution of what they do and how they have interpreted it. I was taught differently and my personal evolution is on schedule as Parker also predicted.

Thank you for the stimulating exchange, and once again I apologize for the gender assumption, and please excuse any errors in my lengthy and somewhat hurried response. Back to work.

 

[sumdumguy]

Doc,
Once again a most enlightening post! I think though, that the quote in Mr. Parker's journal was saying a bit more then that wasn't it? I kind of read (interpretation here) that he was, while explaining the process, saying that "this isn't really what I'm trying to teach you". Am I right? The sentence, "these, so called fixed or ideal" kind of makes me wonder about a few things..... A bit of a negetivism it think.... Just a thought.
Thanks :asian:

 

[Michael Billings]

Once again, something for my notebook. Not everyone who was around at the same time as you, see it in the same light. That leads to some of the contradiction by 3rd or 4th gen instructors, who only know what their instrutors shared.

Ever Evolving, Revolving, and Devolving,
-Michael

 

[mj-hi-yah]

CAUTION: THE BELOW MAY BE OFFENSIVE TO SOME, BUT IS NOT INTENDED IN ANY WAY TO DEMEAN OR SUGGEST WHAT ANYONE DOES IS INVALID.

I can see why may have needed to say this. I am myself am not at all offended, but perhaps a bit conflicted by some of the things you've revealed here, which I will attempt to explain as I go on.

My apologies. Most of the ladies usually identify themselves in their posts. Please excuse my making such an assumption.

Please don't apologize I almost always go by MJ, it's what everyone calls me, especially in my karate world and I forget that it is not gender specific. Please know I'm never offended by the assumption. I'm just not in the habit of saying, "Hi and by the way I am a woman." I only mentioned it because you never know... someday I might run into you at a seminar, and you'd be expecting a sir.

Now that that is out of the way, let me please say that this is a brilliant post! You are like living history, and have an amazing memory. This is what I've been searching for. Thank you for sharing all of this! The history is fascinating and reading it is like having a light turned on. The business model that is kenpo gives me the perspective I needed. Please let me know if it is alright to quote you on some of this.

So you see most arts were sold as just that or as a sporting activity. Ed Parker changed all that, and although those activities haven’t changed much, they are now all “sold” as “the ultimate in self-defense.” Good or bad, Ed Parker influenced the industry in that way.

I recently saw a video clip of Joe Louis speaking about Ed Parker and now I understand what he meant when he said he was, "a good businessman." (as well as being a complete person).

So on one hand he had a positive proliferation effect on the martial arts in America and is known, quite rightly so, as the “Father of American Karate.” The bad news is mass consumption meant reducing it to its lowest common denominator, if it was to be financially successful. But because of it’s inherent flexibility the individual was responsible to make it work. Conceptually the tools were all there, and the student engaged the information at the depth they chose to participate. There were some good things that came of it, but most, at best were mediocre to sorry under mass belt driven business mills.

This part is unfortunate really. Did Mr. Parker make visits to or keep in contact with the various school owners who purchased the model? Or was that done through the IKKA?

Ed Parker borrowed and based his business model on an existing dance chain called “Arthur Murray Dance Studios.” This was when “karate schools” first became known as “studios” instead of “dojos.” In selling, terminology was very important. A “studio” was a comfortable term. What the hell is a “dojo?” most would say.

Anyway, Arthur Murray would lure people come into the studios with “5 private lesson” for a flat low fee that was attractive. Most people who didn’t know how to dance would be embarrassed to get in front of a group and show their dance ineptitude, so the idea of initial private lessons cheap was attractive and an effective lure.

Interesting and kind of funny that a model for a karate system would be based on that of a dance school - there is some irony there. However Kenpo schools as well as Arthur Murray schools are still all around, providing proof of what a great business model it is. Today, we still come for the "free" gi and private lesson, but on some level don't you think that most people are aware that they are being reeled in? At least I was, but I wanted to be, and ultimately you would not stay in an activity where your needs weren't being met.

Thus the student became the teacher rather quickly. I think most would agree that a year or two of part time dance lessons hardly qualifies anyone to teach dancing except on the most superficial of levels. Sound familiar? Ed Parker would advertise in the paper, “Karate Instructors Wanted, no experience necessary.” Anything to get people into the studios to sell the art to the American public.

This part helps me to understand a lot, but honestly is a little disappointing, but not surprising. Here's something I'd considered. In most karate schools students are expected to accumulate a certain number of teaching hours in order to advance in rank. This to me is proliferation within a school. Eventually a head instructor would not have to teach many classes at all. I'm aware of it though and like giving back through teaching so it doesn't much bother me. However, it does concern me that people may be pushed into moving along in the ranks, or begin teaching too soon in order to establish a team of instructors in a school. In our school we pushed to have a class to prepare for teaching. I was not comfortable with the idea of teaching things that I felt I barely had grasped myself. Also, some people are more suited to being teachers than others, and in my opinion having this be a mandatory requirement is not always in everyone's best interest.

Particularly in a martial art where significant street experience is important, and injury is a distinct possibility upon failure. This is why the student and not the teacher is responsible for how they choose to execute a technique. “I present the concept, and you decide how, when, and even if you use it.”

Was it set up this way to somehow indemnify the teacher/school of responsibility?

Imagine someone who graduates from elementary school who suddenly is allowed to teach elementary school. A person who doesn’t know how to fight, with no effective street fight experience, works out for several years and is now a “self-defense” instructor because they passed the course, is now teaching others how to fight. Even at its best, it’s the bleary eyed teaching the blind.

First let me say that this quote does not upset me I see it as the truth. I need not imagine here. I live this. The fact is I am a woman, and I've never been in a fight in my life. I am on the heels of passing the course after five years. I'm teaching people, and I question it myself. Still how do you gain real world experience? You can't exactly go out into the streets and pick fights with your neighbors, but I totally see your point. I'm just not sure what could be done about it. I suppose sparring is a bit like the driver's education simulation car. I learn a lot there, but in some ways I know it is not a real fight for my life.

In the methodology I was taught it had virtually no value, and was actually a divergence from some of his other more n-depth teaching. Many of the older students to this day resent the “business version” and resisted learning it.

Do you still teach? How do you approach your teaching? I'm not sure how to reference this...there is the business model of kenpo that you've already said that you don't subscribe to, but what other ways are there to refer to kenpo being that it is not a single entity? I'm just not sure what the right words are.

When I first met him as a teenager he was Mr. Parker. As I grew and our relationship grew, I called him “Edmund,” (as I do his son) as well as a series of nicknames. “Kahuna,” “Manaloha,” “Grandmaster Flash,” “The Magician of Motion,” “Boss,” and “The Old Man” were some of the many. For me, he fluctuated between being a father figure, big brother, and best friend. I never ever called him “Ed.” He personally confided he didn’t like it, but as far as I know never corrected anyone. He was an informal person who simply introduce himself as, “Ed Parker.” No “grandmaster” or titles. Just Ed Parker.

This is the fun stuff! I see here you were very close. I imagine he had lots of names for you too!

One of the great misconceptions in the motion based business model is the “Three Phases.” People assumed they were to do “Parker’s Ideal Phase.” In fact they were supposed to do “Their Ideal Phase” from Parker’s conceptual teachings, and design techniques that would be personally functional. Parker never ever produced a definitive way to physically perform anything. It was all designed to be interpretive.

All of this information on the phases is extremely helpful to me as an instructor. It clears some things up. Thanks!

A kind reminder please; Kenpo is not a single entity that has or has not evolved. If the business model is your base, than only the individual may speak of their evolution of what they do and how they have interpreted it. I was taught differently and my personal evolution is on schedule as Parker also predicted.

I'm understanding so much more about this, but it's a little hard, only in the fact that up until a short while ago only one Kenpo existed for me. I think that changed a bit last year when I attended the Kenpo Karate Internationals in Boston. That's when I first really began to notice the differences and make comparisons. Especially in the seminars - which were great!

[

Thank you for the stimulating exchange

You are welcome, and thank you too!
MJ

 

[Doc]

Doc,
Once again a most enlightening post! I think though, that the quote in Mr. Parker's journal was saying a bit more then that wasn't it? I kind of read (interpretation here) that he was, while explaining the process, saying that "this isn't really what I'm trying to teach you". Am I right? The sentence, "these, so called fixed or ideal" kind of makes me wonder about a few things..... A bit of a negetivism it think.... Just a thought.
Thanks :asian:

 

[Doc]

Once again, something for my notebook. Not everyone who was around at the same time as you, see it in the same light. That leads to some of the contradiction by 3rd or 4th gen instructors, who only know what their instrutors shared.

Ever Evolving, Revolving, and Devolving,
-Michael

Yes sir that is to be expected. I have always made it a point to stay away from the "business" of kenpo as much as possible because it has a corrupting influence when one makes their living wholly on or in the arts. Most of the things I say I have documentation for having kept just about everything that came into my possession from Parker. Then other things are plain obvious when looked at objectively. Of course the history has nothing to do with the level anyone chooses to involve themselves and study. It may however make it more work than they had anticipated, in as much that what some think is there is specifically and intentionally absent. Either way Mr. B, you still the man.

 

[sumdumguy]

MJ, if you take the blue pill now, you will never know the difference... lol....
or, take the red one and see how deep the Kenpo hole goes. lol...... sorry couldn't resist.

Doc, what's with the that's no answer.... your killing me here.... I gotta get to California. OH, Mr. Rainey Says a great big Hi. He was going to try to find you when he was in Cali in January but he ran out of time.
:asian:

 

[mj-hi-yah]

MJ, if you take the blue pill now, you will never know the difference... lol....
or, take the red one and see how deep the Kenpo hole goes. lol...... sorry couldn't resist.

Doc, what's with the that's no answer.... your killing me here.... I gotta get to California. OH, Mr. Rainey Says a great big Hi. He was going to try to find you when he was in Cali in January but he ran out of time.
:asian:

Sumdumguy's too late...:armed: already took the red one, but if you like you can have my blue

 

[Doc]

MJ, if you take the blue pill now, you will never know the difference... lol....
or, take the red one and see how deep the Kenpo hole goes. lol...... sorry couldn't resist.

Doc, what's with the that's no answer.... your killing me here.... I gotta get to California. OH, Mr. Rainey Says a great big Hi. He was going to try to find you when he was in Cali in January but he ran out of time.
:asian:

I figured I have already stepped on enough toes this week. Your point however is well taken. Many who study some form of Parker kenpo today have a tendancy to feel that what they are "learning" is some kind of "evolution" of older material and that it is definitive, despite the obvious. Many never considered that the idea of the "secrets" of any art are not to be found in a strip mall school full of people who have limited street skills taught by a twenty-somethings galleria warrior.

It would really be good to see A.C. again, and meet you as well. It will happen.

Meanwhile over on the other site youngsters are arguing with an Emperado student and a legitimate historian about things that were before they were born because someone "told" them different. They can't even get the name of the "dance studio" correct as they read over here and then post over there to show how smart they are.

 

[pete]

They can't even get the name of the "dance studio" correct

but he did write the Crucible and was married to Marilyn... :roflmao:

 

[sumdumguy]

Well, I wear steel toed boots besides, in comparison, I know relatively little about a whole bunch of nothing. I would say my cup is empty but I don't have a cup... Ouch... lol
Point taken, I still along with many others I am sure, appreciate the time you take to post on this site for some of us younger Gen Kenpo people to read and learn.....
Thanks Doc. :asian:

 

[Doc]

Well, I wear steel toed boots besides, in comparison, I know relatively little about a whole bunch of nothing. I would say my cup is empty but I don't have a cup... Ouch... lol
Point taken, I still along with many others I am sure, appreciate the time you take to post on this site for some of us younger Gen Kenpo people to read and learn.....
Thanks Doc. :asian:

I don't have a cup either. I'm still looking for it.

Thanks.

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

Meanwhile over on the other site youngsters are arguing with an Emperado student and a legitimate historian about things that were before they were born because someone "told" them different. They can't even get the name of the "dance studio" correct as they read over here and then post over there to show how smart they are.

http://www.dancestudios.com/

Dark Lord

 

[Michael Billings]

http://www.dancestudios.com/

Dark Lord

Cute man, Cute.

You go Clyde!!

-MB

 

[Doc]

Cute man, Cute.

You go Clyde!!

-MB

With respect to the Dark Lord who posted the link and MJ, it hadn't occurred to me that Arthur Murray's Dance Studios would still be in business.

From their website comes something that sounds very familiar. Just insert the correct word(s).

THE BASIC TEN QUESTIONS

Here are 10 questions most frequently asked by prospective new students.

Can I learn to dance? (fight - defend myself)

Dancing (self-defense) is as easy as walking once you are taught by an Arthur Murray (Kenpo instructor)expert. Hundreds of thousands have been successfully trained In Arthur Murray Dance (Ed Parker) Studios. There is no age limit. Our oldest students are over 70. The youngest are usually in their early teens. The vast majority are in their 20’s, 30’s, 40’s, and 50’s.

Will it take long? (to learn to defend myself)

The length of the course depends on how many dances (belts) you would like to learn (attain) and how proficient you would like to become in each dance (belt level). However, you will be able to dance (defend yourself) after your first lesson.

Is your system (style) of teaching (self-defense) difficult?
We teach four (many) simple basic movements (techniques), from which the new combinations are derived.

How much do the lessons (different belts) cost?

The cost depends on a number of factors: how good you want to be; what dances (belts) you want to learn (attain); the number of days and weeks in your dance (training) schedule, etc. Your first lesson is free. After your first lesson, your instructor will be in a better position to recommend a program (charge you) and you will have the knowledge to make an intelligent and informed choice.

Does the fee have to be paid in advance?

There are several convenient methods of payment available. Visa, Mastercard, check, cash, belt plans, etc.) If you prefer, you can budget the fee in small installments…to suit your needs.

Will I learn the (advanced techniques, death touch, Bruce Lee stuff, be able to jump high, etc.) steps?

You can learn the very latest steps (techniques) in any or all social (street confrontations) dances-Swing, Hustle, Disco, Samba, Merengue, Fox Trot, Rumba, Cha-Cha, Mambo, Waltz, Tango, etc.{b](guns, knives, punches, kicks, etc)[/b] Novelty or fad dances (grappling and MMA)are also taught.

Will I have to return each year to learn the newest steps (techniques)? (if I stop training)

After getting a good foundation (learning the basics) , you will be able to analyze (understand motion)the new steps (embark on a kenpo discovery Journey) and pick them up yourself (discover new motions) without difficulty. However, many students return because they enjoy their lessons (getting more belts)and the friends and confidence they’ve acquired. (to spend more money)

May I take the lesson at any time convenient to me? (What is your class schedule)

Take your lessons at any time you wish. Our studios are open from 10:00 AM until 10:00 PM Monday through Friday; Noon to 5:00 PM Saturday. (Sundays are tournament days)

Will I have a good teacher? (instructor)

All of our teachers (instructors) are competent (champions, fighters, experienced, etc.). The teachers selected for you are ones who best suit your personality. To qualify as Arthur Murray teachers (Ed Parker Instructors), they must complete (train, spend) a most arduous (expensive) (through all of the belts to black) training regimen.

What benefits do I derive?

Dancing (self-defense) is our first line of social activity (personal defense). Good dancing (the ability to defend yourself) is a lifetime investment in (protecting yourself and love ones) fun, poise, confidence, improved personality and new friends. Beyond these, dancing (Kenpo) is a superb physical conditioner- providing fun without working at it! It opens up a wonderful new world of togetherness and a thriving year-round (expensive)social calendar!

 

[Doc]

… I only mentioned it because you never know... someday I might run into you at a seminar, and you'd be expecting a sir.

And be pleasantly surprised.

Now that that is out of the way, let me please say that this is a brilliant post! You are like living history, and have an amazing memory.

It’s OK to just say “old.” It’s really not a big deal when you live it. Then it just becomes “memories.” I watched Lee Harvey get shot live on TV by Jack Ruby. For some it’s history, for me its just a memory.

This is what I've been searching for. Thank you for sharing all of this! The history is fascinating and reading it is like having a light turned on. The business model that is kenpo gives me the perspective I needed. Please let me know if it is alright to quote you on some of this.

Absolutely but my quotes can get you into fights.

I recently saw a video clip of Joe Louis speaking about Ed Parker and now I understand what he meant when he said he was, "a good businessman." (as well as being a complete person).

Make no mistake about it, Ed Parker was the best and a good man with a good heart, but he was a businessman who had a rather large family to take care of. It shouldn’t be strange that he capitalized on his skill and business acumen to make a living from the arts. He wasn’t the only one, and in fact he wasn’t even first. His own students Al & Jim Tracy embarked on a franchise system of Kenpo schools as well. And although they ultimately were bigger and had more schools, they lacked the conceptual foundation that Parker developed to “sell” Kenpo, and they were intensely driven by the business aspect. Successful for sure, but not quite as good in my opinion because Al spent too much time trying to break out of the Parker shadow and attempting to discredit Ed Parker with outlandish claims.

Whereas Parker attempted to develop instructors for his affiliate schools, Al simply bought them utilizing anyone with a legitimate MA background, kenpo or not. Much like his well-known Tournament Fighting Team. He “hired” Joe Lewis to head it up along with other guys from kenpo like Richard Willett, and Shorin Ryu Champion Jerry Smith, who became Joe’s best student and the only other authority on Joe’s competition methodology handed down from Bruce Lee.

This part is unfortunate really. Did Mr. Parker make visits to or keep in contact with the various school owners who purchased the model? Or was that done through the IKKA?

Parker spent a great deal of time on the road staying in touch with students as much as humanly possible. But with students all over the world, he saw most very rarely and even then, spent little “quality teacher” time with them. Most of the time it was seminars, local promotions, and selling of patches, books, and merchandise.

Those of us who lived in southern California were a little better off because he had to come home, but few saw him more than once a week in a group setting. The rest of the time he was on the road.

Interesting and kind of funny that a model for a karate system would be based on that of a dance school - there is some irony there. However Kenpo schools as well as Arthur Murray schools are still all around, providing proof of what a great business model it is. Today, we still come for the "free" gi and private lesson, but on some level don't you think that most people are aware that they are being reeled in? At least I was, but I wanted to be, and ultimately you would not stay in an activity where your needs weren't being met.

Well that’s the secret. Most don’t really think they can fight. I’ve heard many question how they were taught a technique, and many confided, “I’d never use that in the real world.” Than there are minorities who run very physical classes like Bob White and Larry Tatum who give some of their students a sense of what a fight is about, and learn a sense of “survival.”

This part helps me to understand a lot, but honestly is a little disappointing, but not surprising. Here's something I'd considered. In most karate schools students are expected to accumulate a certain number of teaching hours in order to advance in rank. This to me is proliferation within a school.

You are indeed correct, but that is the proliferation model.

Eventually a head instructor would not have to teach many classes at all. I'm aware of it though and like giving back through teaching so it doesn't much bother me. However, it does concern me that people may be pushed into moving along in the ranks, or begin teaching too soon in order to establish a team of instructors in a school.

Of course, what could be better as a business owner than to have someone pay you for lessons until they can pay you to teach for you?

In our school we pushed to have a class to prepare for teaching. I was not comfortable with the idea of teaching things that I felt I barely had grasped myself. Also, some people are more suited to being teachers than others, and in my opinion having this be a mandatory requirement is not always in everyone's best interest.

You are correct. In my program everything is based on an academic model. Students may, if they desire, acquire ”ranking” however this is nothing more than a certificate indicating they have passed the course and their “grade.” Numerical ranking after black belt is considered “honorary” at all levels. Those who would teach must obtain a “teaching credential” separately for each level. This credential is not permanent and will expire periodically and must be renewed. This upholds the tradition of granting rank for various reasons, without corrupting the integrity of the curriculum. No one individual may bestow rank or certification. This may only be accomplished by a committee or board of deans.

First let me say that this quote does not upset me I see it as the truth. I need not imagine here. I live this. The fact is I am a woman, and I've never been in a fight in my life. I am on the heels of passing the course after five years. I'm teaching people, and I question it myself. Still how do you gain real world experience? You can't exactly go out into the streets and pick fights with your neighbors, but I totally see your point. I'm just not sure what could be done about it. I suppose sparring is a bit like the driver's education simulation car. I learn a lot there, but in some ways I know it is not a real fight for my life.

It is one of the great paradoxes of the methodology. The only answer is to make the courses as realistic as possible and taught by those with significant real world experience. The senior instructor that runs the basics lower division curriculum in our group is a retired captain from the United States Marine Corps, and a senior ranking agent with the Drug Enforcement Administration.

Other instructors and students include senior and ranking representation from the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department, The Los Angeles Police Department, the United State Marshal Service, The Federal Bureau of Investigation, The United States Secret Service, The California Highway Patrol, The Inglewood Police Department, and other lettered agencies and/or departments I may not mention. Those who will point out any discrepancies immediately in reality-based training constantly scrutinize our curriculum.

Do you still teach? How do you approach your teaching? I'm not sure how to reference this...there is the business model of kenpo that you've already said that you don't subscribe to, but what other ways are there to refer to kenpo being that it is not a single entity? I'm just not sure what the right words are.

Yes, I teach regularly, however from the perspective of anatomically efficient and functional body mechanics, which is not a part of the motion based business model. Many speak of “anatomy and structural integrity” but I usually break them down in about 30 seconds in comparison. Most don’t have the knowledge regardless of “rank.”

This is the fun stuff! I see here you were very close.
[/quote
Well yes, but everybody was, weren’t they? J

I imagine he had lots of names for you too!

Well yes, one came when I went to JC and became a broadcasting major and did radio for a while he called me “golden voice.” During the years I was the executive director of the IKC I always introduced Mr. Parker, and the “Official Voice of the IKC” the late Bob Perry to open the event. Bob Perry than took over from there and announced the rest of the show while I juggled demos, music, officials, and competitors.

All of this information on the phases is extremely helpful to me as an instructor. It clears some things up. Thanks!

Yeah it’s kind of funny but when you read it again from a different perspective, it makes sense. And it’s been right there in the green belt manual all along.

I'm understanding so much more about this, but it's a little hard, only in the fact that up until a short while ago only one Kenpo existed for me. I think that changed a bit last year when I attended the Kenpo Karate Internationals in Boston. That's when I first really began to notice the differences and make comparisons. Especially in the seminars - which were great!

Everyone has something to offer and a level of validity. The secret is to seek the level you wish to aspire to, and most important, don’t think what you have is all there is. There are levels of Parker’s Kenpo that when demonstrated can take on the look and feel of “magic.” That’s why I called him simply, “The Magician.” And like any good magician, he might show you the trick, but he wouldn't reveal how he did it to most.

 

[teej]

Well Doc, you have stimulated many questions. I anticipate my instructor e-mailing me to "call him" after he gets the e-mail of questions I just fired off to him. lol

What is the difference between Kenpo never changing, Kenpo tayloring, or a watered down version of Kenpo due to commercializing?

Please correct me as I may be way off on my interpertation from some of the things you posted. Due to business and commercializing decisions, in your opinion, has Kenpo been watered down in some areas?

Do you see any area where presently Kenpo is evolving in a positive way, being taken to a higher level or possibly improving?

What direction would you like to see Kenpo go and what steps would take Kenpo there?

Yours in Kenpo,
Teej

 

[mj-hi-yah]

It’s OK to just say “old.”

:lol: LOL...I guess I neglected to mention that I thought I'd heard somewhere that you were about two years old when you first started learning Kenpo...uhhh...something about a child prodigy.

Absolutely but my quotes can get you into fights.

That's ok it seems I could use the experience .

Make no mistake about it, Ed Parker was the best and a good man with a good heart, but he was a businessman who had a rather large family to take care of. It shouldn’t be strange that he capitalized on his skill and business acumen to make a living from the arts.

No it is very understandable, but just a thought, as with any business there can sometimes exist a conflict of interest between what's best for the family and what's best for the clients of the business.

Whereas Parker attempted to develop instructors for his affiliate schools, Al simply bought them utilizing anyone with a legitimate MA background, kenpo or not. Much like his well-known Tournament Fighting Team. He “hired” Joe Lewis to head it up along with other guys from kenpo like Richard Willett, and Shorin Ryu Champion Jerry Smith, who became Joe’s best student and the only other authority on Joe’s competition methodology handed down from Bruce Lee.

Interesting...Joe Lewis did appear to have a lot of respect for Ed Parker in spite of his affiliation with the Tracys.

Well that’s the secret. Most don’t really think they can fight. I’ve heard many question how they were taught a technique, and many confided, “I’d never use that in the real world.” Than there are minorities who run very physical classes like Bob White and Larry Tatum who give some of their students a sense of what a fight is about, and learn a sense of “survival.”

I definitely agree that people feel this way about some Kenpo techniques. Some of the techniques really do not seem to be practical, especially for everyone to utilize in a fight, and I have questioned a few myself and have seen others question them as well. I think the application of a particular technique in the "real world" depends on many variables including state of mind at the moment, amount of prior practice, proper tailoring, the application of elements of focus, ability to use proper alignment, ability to use torque and gravitational marriage and characteristics of body type (size, height, weight, speed, agility, flexibility and strength) and I'm sure lots of things I've yet to fully understand. I can tell you in real life I will never try the takedown in Falling Falcon on a really big guy, but I don't think it is impractical for a big guy to use the takedown in that technique. I think it is really ok, actually important to be aware of what may or may not work for you individually. This is where I think using the sd techniques as ideas or as part of the "alphabet of motion" that Ed Parker discusses in Infinite Insights becomes most important. Ultimately, for me it is just important to be able to apply and or combine a part or parts of techniques in the moment to do enough damage to safely escape an attack. You have to have faith in some of the things that you do, and I do have faith in many things that I've learned. I find a move like Arching Blades to be perfect for me! It's effective, blinding and allows me to utilize my speed. It does seem important to be able to develop a greater sense of "survival" though. I've seen some of Larry Tatum's stuff and I've liked what I've seen of it. I'd like to learn more about what both these men do that's different.

You are correct. In my program everything is based on an academic model. Students may, if they desire, acquire ”ranking” however this is nothing more than a certificate indicating they have passed the course and their “grade.” Numerical ranking after black belt is considered “honorary” at all levels. Those who would teach must obtain a “teaching credential” separately for each level. This credential is not permanent and will expire periodically and must be renewed. This upholds the tradition of granting rank for various reasons, without corrupting the integrity of the curriculum. No one individual may bestow rank or certification. This may only be accomplished by a committee or board of deans.

This is an enlightened approach. This is very appealing to me on many levels!

Those who will point out any discrepancies immediately in reality-based training constantly scrutinize our curriculum.

This is an excellent idea. We do have a police officer who trains with us...I'll have to pick his brain.

Yes, I teach regularly, however from the perspective of anatomically efficient and functional body mechanics, which is not a part of the motion based business model. Many speak of “anatomy and structural integrity” but I usually break them down in about 30 seconds in comparison. Most don’t have the knowledge regardless of “rank.”

This is interesting. I'd like to know more about your ideas on this. Have you published anything on this? If not, do you think at another time you could share some of these ideas? Perhaps in a different thread...

Well yes, one came when I went to JC and became a broadcasting major and did radio for a while he called me “golden voice.”

I'll have to locate a copy of Sophisticated Basics to relate to this...

Everyone has something to offer and a level of validity. The secret is to seek the level you wish to aspire to, and most important, don’t think what you have is all there is. There are levels of Parker’s Kenpo that when demonstrated can take on the look and feel of “magic.” That’s why I called him simply, “The Magician.” And like any good magician, he might show you the trick, but he wouldn't reveal how he did it to most.

Thanks Doc - it's a good prescription. Maybe there is a magician with the potential to be developed in us all. Maybe for some it only comes to look like magic through a lifetime of personal self discovery as a Martial Artist. At any rate, it's something for us all to try and aspire to.

To Sumdumbguy: Really, take the red pill:armed:...you'll find it's totally worth the trip!!!